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Bots N Privacy (Community)
Bots N Privacy // Communitythe ladyJul 20, 2003, 6:39pm
Bots can broadcast from world to world, (also, I think from universe to
universe), and to selected individuals. That can be a useful tool. However, if you have any kind of bot chat configuration that alters/enhances/limits or in any way changes the one that comes with and works with regular citizens in the AW program, kindly inform your visitors of that when they enter your world. Do this in three ways: in your welcome message, with a sign at your world entry point, and detailed explanation on your web page. Most people do not like their personal conversations broadcasted throughout the universe, galaxy, etc., without their knowledge. And they would appreciate the knowledge about the controls, how it works and if they are able to turn it off regarding their conversations while they are visiting your world. johnJul 20, 2003, 8:52pm
Oh leave it alone! World owners can do whatever they like, if somebody
wants privacy, WHISPER... there could just as easily be someone lurking in the world as in another world that there is a phone bot in! You seem to count aw as REALITY!!! AW is a VIRTUAL ONLINE REALITY.... look... AW is virtual, the real world is real! AW IS OWNED BY A COMPANY called "ACTIVE WORLDS INC"... OK!? ~John [View Quote] xelagJul 20, 2003, 9:41pm
Not quite, ma'am.
I do agree with you that privacy should be respected. But if you use the Active Worlds software, you know you have no option on this. Take it or leave it, I'd say. Active Worlds now has quite a few features that could upset you. It is not tailored to you or me. If you do not wish to be submitted to features you do not like, create your own world, regulate its properties, and stick to it: this is the safest way. If you explore other worlds, I'm afraid you will be submitted to other rules. It's up to you to chosse which worlds you wish to visit. Alex On 20 Jul 2003 16:39:11 -0400, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com> [View Quote] >Bots can broadcast from world to world, (also, I think from universe to >universe), and to selected individuals. That can be a useful tool. > >However, if you have any kind of bot chat configuration that >alters/enhances/limits or in any way changes the one that comes with and >works with regular citizens in the AW program, kindly inform your visitors >of that when they enter your world. Do this in three ways: in your welcome >message, with a sign at your world entry point, and detailed explanation on >your web page. > >Most people do not like their personal conversations broadcasted throughout >the universe, galaxy, etc., without their knowledge. And they would >appreciate the knowledge about the controls, how it works and if they are >able to turn it off regarding their conversations while they are visiting >your world. > xelagJul 20, 2003, 10:04pm
To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created,
they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the whole chat to the CIA... First rule: use bots from trusted makers. Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want. You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds. Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on CNN, there is no way to control that. I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just trying to show you our limits. Alex XelaG - bot maker [View Quote] >Not quite, ma'am. > >I do agree with you that privacy should be respected. But if you use >the Active Worlds software, you know you have no option on this. Take >it or leave it, I'd say. > >Active Worlds now has quite a few features that could upset you. It >is not tailored to you or me. If you do not wish to be submitted to >features you do not like, create your own world, regulate its >properties, and stick to it: this is the safest way. If you explore >other worlds, I'm afraid you will be submitted to other rules. It's >up to you to chosse which worlds you wish to visit. > >Alex > >On 20 Jul 2003 16:39:11 -0400, "the lady" <thelady263414 at hotmail.com> [View Quote] the ladyJul 20, 2003, 11:27pm
I understand that there will always be a certain degree of non-privacy in
AW. I'm not asking for encrypted software. I'm asking for world owners to, out of courtesy and respect for the need of non-worldwide broadcasted conversation, to post their bot settings regarding their world chat so that vistors are informed. [View Quote] r i c h a r dJul 20, 2003, 11:29pm
Maybe the lady should make a stand against the fact the aw uniserver logs
telegrams ;) Oh sorry guys thats gonna have her going for months...but id have thought the software would have been encrypted anyway... its certainly compressed the aworld.exe's seem to be getting smaller not larger O_o themaskJul 20, 2003, 11:59pm
Im kinda getting sick of people whining about privacy from a bot relaying it
over the whole world. If you dont like it, just teleport out of the world. It's just a click. TonyM Made the ChatRelayBot (http://caesar.homeunix.org/aw/relay/) Because it would be useful for builders to chat among the world there building with, so they dont need to use a phonebot or something to do it, or they use it among different useages which i wont list, because theres a couple more. But if you dont seem very safe with a bot there, then goto somewhere in AW and talk in whispers. Easy. builderzJul 21, 2003, 2:22am
Three ways to explain to a visitor of your world what bots in it are
doing? Next you'll be expecting each world owner to write their own privacy policy for their world and have their bot read it to you upon entry. No offense, but I'd be realistic and not expect world owners to comply with your request. If you are worried about your privacy and/or are chatting about sensitive material, than use an instant message client with encryption, PGP encrypted e-mail, a VPN, or some other type of secure communications medium instead of AW. As far as I know, almost everything can be logged except whispers (even then, they probably COULD be logged using a hacked or hex edited version of a world server). AW, for the most part, is a public place. Lots of worlds I go to have the bot announce to everyone else in that world that I just entered. Privacy cannot be guaranteed in places like this. I'd politely ask the world owner or world caretakers about their policies, and if you don't like them or agree to them, then kindly leave. Maybe you'd be better suited in a private world with no bots that you host yourself? If you really want what you say to be done by most AW citizens, then try to get AWI to add your suggestions into their Conduct Guidelines (http://www.activeworlds.com/community/conduct.asp) and/or Content Guidelines (http://www.activeworlds.com/community/terms.asp). Builderz http://www.3dhost.net [View Quote] strike rapierJul 21, 2003, 2:54am
Well, honestly... thats up to the world owner... privacy rules mean that
your chat cannot be 'spied' upon in AWI public worlds appart from by AWI if they feel something is amiss. Did you have a traumatic experience with a ChatRelayBot by any chance TheLady? It would seem to best fit what you are refering to... Like everything, its up to world owners and the bot programmers to decide exactly how the worlds chat system should run... I know in the main world I program for in AWEdu we use the ChatRelayBot for relaying everything all over the world because we want to be able to communicate, there really is nothing to hide that cannot be done in whispers or telegrams if needed, and the occasional time that we do, we can take down the ChatRelayBot and put up the Zeus beta to restict the outgoing communications from a chat zone. We have never had any other complaints, heck what the hell do you think is happening to your chat when it comes out bright pink on the chat window? :) Cooincidently AW IS encrypted at communications, and EXE level... - Mark [View Quote] tony mJul 21, 2003, 3:19am
I concur. By default, my bot comes configured with a welcome message explicitly stating it is in action, and where users can get more information on it. Whether or not worldowners change it is something I can't control; it's up to them to make sure users know where they can find information about my bot and what it does.
Public chat is just that -- "public". They may be intercepted, modified, and rebroadcasted by anything that knows how to -- the CRB, another relay-type bot, and basically anything else out there. If The Lady has had any traumatic experiences with a CRB, I invite her to either email me about it or respond to this thread :) [View Quote] > Well, honestly... thats up to the world owner... privacy rules mean that your chat cannot be 'spied' upon in AWI public worlds appart from by AWI if they feel something is amiss. > > Did you have a traumatic experience with a ChatRelayBot by any chance TheLady? It would seem to best fit what you are refering to... > > Like everything, its up to world owners and the bot programmers to decide exactly how the worlds chat system should run... I know in the main world I program for in AWEdu we use the ChatRelayBot for relaying everything all over the world because we want to be able to communicate, there really is nothing to hide that cannot be done in whispers or telegrams if needed, and the occasional time that we do, we can take down the ChatRelayBot and put up the Zeus beta to restict the outgoing communications from a chat zone. We have never had any other complaints, heck what the hell do you think is happening to your chat when it comes out bright pink on the chat window? :) > > Cooincidently AW IS encrypted at communications, and EXE level... bowenJul 21, 2003, 3:43am
[View Quote]
I do not have to tell you squat about what my bot is doing in my world.
If you don't like _that_ don't visit _my_ world. -- --Bowen-- No of SETI units returned: 41 Processing time: 31 days, 9 hours. (Total hours: 753) www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu kfJul 21, 2003, 4:21am
Actually, since the issue was brought up, it is, in fact, a question
which information may and can be logged and stored and which not. The USA has low privacy and data protection laws, however, the case is different for countries of the EU on one hand and individual countries in Europe with even more sophisticated laws on the other hand. For Germany, for example, I would classify all broadcasting of private conversation (which is even private conversation held in public places) WITHOUT the consent of the people speaking, a violation of existing laws, also the storage of information that can be connected to an individuum (eg. visitors logfiles with IP number etc.). If the people give their explicite permission (not implicite by using the software alone), it would be allowed, though. So, at least for universe and world owners located in specific countries, it might be a good idea to inform their visitors that conversations and dates/times/lengths of visits are publicly broadcasted and stored - or to refrain from such attempts in general. [View Quote] .duo.Jul 21, 2003, 8:13am
Remember though, sometimesworld owners will have the world on 'hide chat'
and will repeat the chat through a bot. This basically disables whispers. [View Quote] tony mJul 21, 2003, 8:57am
Only if they do not enable "Show Names". If they enable this, you will be able to whisper :)
[View Quote] > Remember though, sometimesworld owners will have the world on 'hide chat' and will repeat the chat through a bot. This basically disables whispers. the ladyJul 21, 2003, 9:00am
modJul 21, 2003, 9:27am
Active Worlds is a privately owned company, Also it is a company set in the
US. As long as the software itself isn't breaking any of the US internet laws then its pretty much anything goes, Country laws don't apply to the software itself, and what goes on in it :) I just find it funny how The Lady comes and try's to change the most stupid small things, and things that are fine. I know when I ran my world some crazy things with chat and names went on in there, most people seemed to welcome the chat manipulation, and those who didn't left. Simple as that. If I am paying $100 for a world and decide to let you in, you should at least have the courtesy to not try and change the way that I do things :) BTW the AW browser is very encrypted, and that's why you can go to bed at night and sleep knowing some little hacker isn't going to imitate your account (well about 95% of the time :P). Anyways, just my two cents on the matter :) -Cheers Mod [View Quote] iceyJul 21, 2003, 1:04pm
Hi Xelag, long time no see...well the CNN option seems intriguing :o)
icey [View Quote] >To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created, >they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers >adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive >all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots >don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what >they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they >add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They >could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the >whole chat to the CIA... > >First rule: use bots from trusted makers. > >Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want. >You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and >which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds. > >Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do >not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the >universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to >everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on >CNN, there is no way to control that. > > > > > kfJul 21, 2003, 1:15pm
Active Worlds is a privately owned company, Also it is a company set in
the US. As long as the software itself isn't breaking any of the US internet laws then its pretty much anything goes, Country laws don't apply to the software itself, and what goes on in it :) <<< I am afraid not so - and I do not mean the countries who claim legislative even when an offer is _accessible_ in this country (eg. to block certain IP numbers for their citizens or pursue offending foreigners when they should enter the country). The world _owners_ are _not_ a part of the AW company (except for AW owned worlds). The world owners only use the AW universe server to bring their own offer online (like you use a provider to get online yourself) - in such cases, for the world owners, the laws of the country, in which they live, apply. [View Quote] kfJul 21, 2003, 1:30pm
It would now be different, when we would consider AW to be a private
"club" where only members have access - however, it is not since everybody who wants it can become a member as soon as he paid the membership fee. The problem lies here in the detail - whether it is an publicly accessible offer or not. A DIFFERENT thing are, for example, "private" worlds, where access is granted on a case by case base (eg. available only for certain citizen numbers) - but even there the condition would be that you inform people right away about the broadcast and storage of personal data (eg. talks). When they agree and become a "member" of this world, it is ok - when they not agree, they would have to be rejected as a "member". Some countries will here require an explicite, not implicite agreement. Countries with high privacy and personal rights barriers in this regard are a couple of European countries, so this does not apply, in this general meaning, to world located (means: owned and/or operated) in other countries. This all is probably an academical discussion and the chance of any lawsuits is quite minimal, but to be on the "safe" side, inform your visitors about any recordings or storages - using a bot to simply transform words without storing them and without broadcasting them to _another_ world (where people who are not actual members of _this_ world) would not be a problem in this regard, though. Ultimatively, the world owner must decide him/her/themselves what to do (and what to risk), as with every guestbook or chat room also - this is not really a typical AW problem. :-) [View Quote] lucrezia borgiaJul 23, 2003, 3:17am
xelagJul 30, 2003, 10:44am
Not to forget:
every single browser has the ability to log conversations, not only bots. And you never know what the user of that browser will do with the logs... There is no way a world owner can check this. Alex [View Quote] >To explain this a bit more. Since 1998/1999, when bots were created, >they have the ability to receive chat, and to receive whispers >adressed to them (and only those ones addressed to them), and receive >all other AW events. This is because they use the AW SDK. But bots >don't only use the AW SDK, they have their own code to handle what >they do with this. It depends on the bot maker what sort of code they >add (and they MUST add code, otherwise bots would do nothing). They >could be adding code to send the owner's password to someone, or the >whole chat to the CIA... > >First rule: use bots from trusted makers. > >Second rule: NEVER expect that people or bots will do what you want. >You have, in your own world, the right to select which people and >which bots you allow in. You do NOT have that right in other worlds. > >Whispers seem safe to me. World servers do not log them, and they do >not go thru the universe server. Telegrams are dangerous: the >universe server has an option to LOG ALL TELEGRAMS. Chat is open to >everone: it can be privately logged, sent world wide , published on >CNN, there is no way to control that. > >I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just trying to show you our limits. > >Alex >XelaG - bot maker > [View Quote] |