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How much PS is being allowed in Gallery?
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How much PS is being allowed in Gallery? // Roundtable
Post by Steinie // Oct 23, 2006, 3:06pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I have been studying some of the works in the gallery and I am finding that Photoshop is being allowed more and more. This is most unfair to those that have tried to use TS as their primary program when entered into the Gallery Contest. What puzzles me is why no one is noticing at Caligari. I am not talking about some of the regulars here who obviously use TS as their primary tool.
Here is how it's being done:
1) First take a photo or find one and place it in PS. Next blur it to give it the look of DOF.
2) Use TS and Model one object and texture it render on a ground plane for shadow.
3) Using Mattes and Layers you apply your one object over the background.
4) Crop real photos of objects and paste into layer with slight blur.(these same objects are in at least 4 differant renderings)
5) Using PS and Filters create the look of rays on background.
6) On other renderings burning is used to make window frame shadows.
7) Dodge and burn to create your shadows.
Total usage of TS= 1 object modeled and textured.
I have seen this mentioned before years ago and I'll bring it up here. If you guys want a fair contest, users must supply a scene file or supply one if questioned.
Far too much credit is being given to some people that are actually very good PS users instead of TS users. |
Post by brianalldridge // Oct 23, 2006, 4:28pm
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brianalldridge
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Well said, it doesn't annoy me unless I have entered and lost to a photoshopped and glorified poor rendering |
Post by Mike // Oct 23, 2006, 5:35pm
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Mike
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How To Enter
Create a still image or an animation using any Caligari product as your primary tool. You may use other programs to create texture maps, crop, and scale your rendered images, and assemble animation clips into one animation. You may also use trueSpace plug-ins. You need to specify the codec used if submitting an animation. We are looking for animations and images that make the most of our software's capabilities, and present them in an eye-pleasing manner. Animations must be no larger than 15Mb in size, and images should be in JPG format and 800x600 (or very close to those dimensions) in size. Animations or images outside of these requirements may be cropped or resized.
I don't know which images are causing your concern, but in my opinion using Photoshop to adjust levels, curves, blur, sharpen, and filters is perfectly acceptable as standard tools of the trade. That said, art is art. If it took that one rendered addition to make the piece work, the rest is supporting that render.
Edit: I've never ever entered the gallery. Post processing for beta testing renders posted anywhere, and any trueSpace doodles on my site, is limited to levels, curves, unsharp mask (if any). |
Post by Bobbins // Oct 23, 2006, 9:49pm
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Bobbins
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Interesting discussion. If it takes one rendered object to make the piece of art, it would depend on the importance of the rendered object as to whether trueSpace was being used as a supporting tool or a primary tool to create the artwork.
A CG car filling the screen layered onto a background photo is going to be mainly CG. A photo of a car with a CG aerial layered onto the roof is basically a retouched photo - even if adding that aerial 'made' the piece work. There has to be some cut-off point where the CG part of the finished piece is such a small percentage of the work that the shift changes. |
Post by Alien // Oct 24, 2006, 12:53am
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Alien
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I have seen this mentioned before years ago and I'll bring it up here. If you guys want a fair contest, users must supply a scene file or supply one if questioned..
I seem to remember, a few years ago, checking the requirements/entry rules for the monthly gallery comp, & I'm fairly certain that back then including the scene file was a requirement. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 24, 2006, 1:43am
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Mike, I've admired your work for so long it's sickning! No need to explain.
What I'm talking about is someone using PS to apply LIGHT. The number one thing that would determine TS as a "Primary Tool"
Changing values, blending and adding a signature etc WE ALL DO. I use Photoshop just as you describe.
The scenes I mention were never rendered in TS but is a composite of separate objects. Adding rays, shadows, highlights in another application is not using TrueSpace as the primary tool. What is happening is your faking a render.
This is not ONE rendering I'm talking about either but many. One was posted at another 3D site and they were told to post somewhere else!
My research has already been verified by someone else here too, thanks.
(Renders I mention have nothing to do with animals or cars......or even a toilet);)
Caligari, whats past is past but please fix this for the future entries! |
Post by Chester Desmond // Oct 24, 2006, 4:24am
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Chester Desmond
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I see your point and agree for the most part; any time I have submitted to the gallery I have made a point of creating the scene entirely in trueSpace, maybe using PS to add depth of field. Is that 'cheating' since there is DOF functionality in tS? My reasons for using tS 'only' are personal (to test my own ability to use tS and to test its power) and derived from my own interpretation of the rules. There is nothing in the guidelines stating that the lighting has to be from tS, or even that the scene is required. It says the program should be used as the primary tool in the image which, especially with multipass rendering options, allows a pretty broad interpretation. It would be pretty harsh to advertise a product as a good choice for Illustrators but then refuse to accept their entries to a contest showing off the software's capabilities. I agree that there should be some sort of a line where an entry no longer meets criteria, but this is at the discretion of the judge(s) and, were we to be the judges, would be different for each of us.
In my opinion it takes more artistic talent to creatively combine various media into a finished image than it does to render a cube with photrealistic texture maps applied, yet the latter seems to be more acceptable as an entry to the image contest because the shadows are generated by trueSpace.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you so much as saying that you are taking a more purist view of the rules than others might. |
Post by splinters // Oct 24, 2006, 4:40am
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splinters
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As always, the judges decide what is acceptable and I guess Caligari know what is possible (or impossible) with tS so I doubt they are allowing PS stuff in by accident.
Personally, I use whatever means necessary to get the image I require but the only 3D package I use for creating the content is trueSpace. If I used another package I would post on their forum. I have won the gallery three times now and each image was noticably tS but with my piggy pictures I rely more and more on PS to recreate the look of the original poster.
Having said that, I could quite easily have 'doctored' my latest image (the Cars poster) but I chose to model the logo from scratch to give me more control and it is much more satisfying doing it that way.
Each to their own I guess...:rolleyes: |
Post by Shike // Oct 24, 2006, 10:20pm
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Shike
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.... maybe using PS to add depth of field. Is that 'cheating' since there is DOF functionality in tS?.....
Since tS7 (and ts6.6 with iPak) can save the greyscale depthmap to photoshop for use with the lensblur filter, I would say that it's completely ok.
And simpler than previous methods I've used...like giving everything in the scene a constant white material and adding white fog to get the depthmap;)
Also, using DOF within the renderpackage isn't really effective unless you're making an animation.
When I make a 4000-6000pix render with integrated DOF....that DOF completely dissapears when posting resized smaller versions on the web...:p
Still, when it comes to matching a rendered object to a photographic background....I think almost everything goes. In the professional CGI business the don't rely on their renderpackage, they use every trick in the book to get the final result.
Even handpainting the shadows on the ground if you can't get the correct result from the "shadow"-shaders (since they usually prefer a certain type of lighting.)
But, I also agree with some of the comments about the gallery.
The purpose of the CaligariGallery is to show off what trueSpace can do, and I personally think that the modelling, lighting and render should be done with tS.
I wouldn't enter with my ZBrush sculpted creatures...or if I ever figgure out how it works, the ZBrush renders.
Splinters work is not like that. It's a trueSpace render placed in a photoshop environment as an illustrator would do it, and I think it's perfectly valid since Caligari has targeted the Illustrator community with PS support.
(and also, I like his renders and want to see more :D) |
Post by splinters // Oct 25, 2006, 12:05am
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splinters
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Good points shike but I must reiterate that I am only relying on PS so much for the pig spoofs as there is absolutely no way of rendering the whole image (as it is in the poster) in one go in tS. But I did model each element and then composite in PS. With some I have doctored an existing poster but I try to refrain from that for copyright reasons. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 25, 2006, 12:52am
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If the purpose of the competition is to demonstrate the best of which tS is capable then there are potential problems about overusing PS - both factually and ethically. Its not just a matter of rendering purists vs. making the best image you can via any means. The point of the execrise is to promote trueSpace's capabilities.
Having said that I don't have a problem with people compiling elements they have rendered and "tweaking" the tonal/colour range - within reason and there's the rub! What constitutes within reason? In the end the judge of the comp is the arbiter and if they want to request more detailed info and/or image construction files etc before making their decision then maybe they have the right to do so. |
Post by TomG // Oct 25, 2006, 2:44am
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I think the contest balance is just fine. If you read Zachary's work, for instance, you'll see that whether he adds "light" in Photoshop or not, he wouldn't be able to produce any work without tS - he says so himself, that 3D is what enables him to do his art, as without it he can't draw a thing!
There never was a rule to submit scenes. It would be impossible in fact to judge with scenes, the time taken to download, load up and inspect every scene would be far too time consuming and the contest would grind to a halt. Just as we don't have dongles on the software, there comes a point of trust, where trusting users is worthwhile since it saves the user extra hardship and hoops to jump through. So there is an element of trust in the contest - if someone really really wanted to abuse it, then I am sure they could (and even scene files wouldn't prevent that, it would just make it harder for legitimate users to enter).
So, where do you draw the line? How much Photoshop is ok? How do you measure how much Photoshop? A log of hours spent in each program? Some new code that reads an image before and after Photoshop and gives a percentage as to how much the image has been altered? The point here is that measuring is impossible.
So maybe the changes have to be insignificant to the impact of the image? Well if that were true, you wouldn't make the changes at all. Can you render and then totally change the mood, going from cheerful to spooky? Is that "cheating"?
What about using other applications to do some of the work, maybe a Poser figure in there because you want to tell a story, but hey you can model furniture and buildings but not people? Or a Terragen landscape in the background since tS doesn't have all the specific landscape generation and rendering tools that Terragen has?
What about those who have V-Ray - this is a whole different way of "adding light" to your render that not everyone has or wants or uses. Is that a different tool that should be disallowed? If not, how is that different from adding light in Photoshop? You are still taking raw tS data and passing it to a non-Caligari piece of code to get your lighting result back.
I think getting into these discussions is not helpful. Each of us is a unique artist with different points of view. If you are a purist and you only produce an unmodified image with no post-processing, all models made by yourself, and made in only one application, then no-one will fault you for it. That's your way of working.
If you believe in taking the best tools and techniques from wherever you find them, whatever application that might be in, then also no-one will fault you for it, that's your way of working.
Since that is true, then we allow all to submit to the gallery. The rule is (and always has been) that tS is the major application behind the image. If you took out the 3D rendered objects that tS produced and left just the Photoshop part, whether it's lighting, shadows, contrast adjustment, blending of three separate renders, etc - then what are you left with? An almost-as-valid piece of work, or an empty image?
I think in all cases people have in mind here, if you took away the 3D rendering, you'd be left with no image at all, just some painted bits of light that would make no sense and have no impact.
Besides, in what way is this not showing what tS can do? You think a professional illustrator uses only one application to create the finished image? So if they want to see what tS can do, they actually want to know that it CAN have things done in Photoshop.
And the same with modeling in other apps - so long as you don't create your scene in Maya, render it, and then render again in tS using that as a background to add a shiny chrome sphere, well, you can still use things you created in other apps, and this still is showing the power of tS since most people out there interested in buying tS will be interested in using content from other apps they have or will be interested in getting.
We even have iPak (now built into tS7) created specifically to make it easier to make changes in Photoshop! Why would we then tell people that such functionality we have provided and encouraged them to use is now banned from the contest?
So... the upshot is that the contest is as it always has been, the personal opinion of the judges here at Caligari and no amount of discussion will change how it is judged ;) It has been judged the same way ever since it began (and no discussions have changed the judging process in that time!).
If you do not like Photoshop in your renders, then that is fine, it is a free world. I think it is a shame though to "insult" other people by saying their renders and artwork are not worthy to have won due to something that is, at the end of the day, just personal opinion. If they weren't worthy to have won, they wouldn't have been chosen (they have a very strict and demanding judge after all!).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Oct 25, 2006, 3:24am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Tom, I respect your opinion (and your holding all the cards) but to allow major modified PS work into a Contest (Gallery) is news to me. This is great for Caligari because they'll get eye candy to use.
V-Ray is used inside TS so why can't people use it?
Adding light outside TS sort of defeats the need for a 3D program right?
Are you guys looking for works that show what TS can do or pretty pictures?
Everyone here has made valid points. The sorry truth here is you don't even understand what I meant. (or care)
People lost in the gallery because there are "renderings" being allowed that are nothing more than PS works. Maybe that is ok now but it never use to be. To me THAT is insulting. |
Post by Matski007 // Oct 25, 2006, 4:18am
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I am with steini on this, a certain level of PS work is perfectly fine, however I assumed that these galaries were made to show off what Truespace software can do, not that you can render a few boxs and super impose photos over the top of it, create false lighting etc because this is an example of someones abilities in Photoshop and would be more welcome in forums such as CGTalk because those forums are dedicated to all digital 3d and 2d art. These forums and galleries are about Truespace and I think priority in gallery submissions should be given to the work that utilizes mostly the features of truespace software so that possible clients and customers are not clouded by work made using 50% or less of what truespace has to offer. I dont think Steini has offended anyone and i think his point is valid. Nobody ever said that these pictures arent great and that the person isnt a great artist, it is just that their work belong in other galleries |
Post by Alien // Oct 25, 2006, 4:37am
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Alien
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There never was a rule to submit scenes.
I could have sworn there was. It was quite some time ago though. I seem to remember a graphics card being 1 of the prize options as well. Probably around the time tS4.x was the current version. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif Oh well, maybe it was for some other Caligari contest, other than the monthly 1. |
Post by Mike // Oct 25, 2006, 6:05am
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Mike
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That rings a bell, I think maybe it was the "Mega" contest in 1998 where it had to be a big world. I'm not certain but maybe the scene file was included?!
I could have sworn there was. It was quite some time ago though. I seem to remember a graphics card being 1 of the prize options as well. Probably around the time tS4.x was the current version. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif Oh well, maybe it was for some other Caligari contest, other than the monthly 1.
Anyway, Stenie, people DO care, that's why we've responded!
It's hard to communicate adequately via forums and email, too much gets read between the lines that is not really there. I think everyone has good intentions, and I'm glad that we're passionate enough about trueSpace to scrutinize every render for technique and inspiration.
I look at the gallery contests as mostly for fun, a nice thing that Caligari does for us. True, they also advertise product, but more the galleries show off who is having fun by entering them (because many best works may never be entered).
I know that this thread is less about winning recognition than it is about judging criteria, but want to say that words from fellow users such as your complement to me mean more in the long run. |
Post by TomG // Oct 25, 2006, 6:30am
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"The sorry truth here is you don't even understand what I meant. (or care) "
Of course I care, otherwise I wouldn't have replied! I could have just said "Sorry, no conversation will be entered into about what gets in the gallery and what doesn't" - that is a rule about the gallery. And indeed it looks like maybe I should have, since trying to share the thinking behind the gallery has been so badly received.
So, one last time, and after that, "No conversation will be entered into" (and the reason for that is that what is a winner and what is not, and what is fair and what is not, is all personal opinion - even the ones selected are personal opinion, and that has always been the judging criteria of the gallery, personal opinion, so debating it just makes feelings run high).
I don't see where I am not understanding. I have answered the comment that there is no way to judge how much content of a piece of art is one application or another, that there is no reliable measuring tool to assess that, so there can be no rule that defines when there is "too much" Photoshop, Poser, etc. That would make trying to have such a rule pretty much unenforcable.
Then I explained that "showing what tS can do" is a very broad canvas, about much more than just what it can render without any post work. I pointed out how in the final applications of a 3D program, people almost always use more than one tool, so seeing how it works with these tools is indeed showing what tS can do in a way that is relevant to them.
One thing to note, the galleries are just that - galleries, as in art galleries. While they showcase what Caligari software can do, they are not just simply about being a technical showcase of dry abilities and toolsets. They are not there to show tS rendering abilities in isolation, they are there to show tS abilities in the hands of artists and what people can create using tS as the source / inspiration / springboard in their work. So the emphasis remains squarely in showcasing the art that tS can produce, and the artists that produce it, and not showcasing the technical specifications of tS.
tS has to have been critical for that person to create that piece of artwork - it has to be that without tS, they wouldn't have been able to create it. That makes tS the "major piece of software used in the creation".
So, I simply wanted to share the whys and wherefores on the gallery judging. I hope this helps clarify some. And on that note, I will bow out of saying anything further.
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Oct 25, 2006, 6:44am
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Steinie
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Tom G,
Thanks for the reply...how about a hug?
Now worry more about 7.5
Steinie |
Post by Chester Desmond // Oct 25, 2006, 6:50am
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Chester Desmond
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I know that this thread is less about winning recognition than it is about judging criteria, but want to say that words from fellow users such as your complement to me mean more in the long run.
This is a very good point. Even asking for WIP critiques illustrates the difference in thinking between users\forum members. Some are geared towards photorealism\complete accuracy where others (far fewer it seems) view the whole image and its "story". I'm in the latter category and I find it frustrating sometimes when I work hard to tell a story and all I hear back is "the specularity on that model is too bright" or "the refraction is not correct in that bottle" .. Completely valid and helpful observations but coming from a different perspective; it really depends on who and why you are asking. Go to any forum for any 'creative' endeavour and this polar opposite exists. I guess for every faithful Christian there is someone who points out that God spelled Peter wrong on page 1325.
As Tom said, the point is pretty much moot, but I like to hear myself talk :) |
Post by digitaldali // Oct 25, 2006, 8:27am
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Oops:|I use photoshop for mattepainting. Mea Culpa. There are some stylistic choices that need to be made in a 2D program, but the fundamentals of every piece boil down to the rendering: 1) composition 2) modeling/texturing 3) lighting. Any post work can only enhance what is already there. If any one of the three above points are exagerated more than the other two, the piece is at risk of being imbalanced (clear as mud?)
As above, so below: The universe demands balance; and it is up to us, as miniature universes, to instill that same premise in all our creations. Well, that's my puff...now pass. |
Post by TomG // Oct 25, 2006, 10:09am
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Well I will make just ONE more reply, just for that hug, how could anyone resist that! ;)
And yep, don't worry, still very focused on 7.5 and other goodies in development like courses and similar. Nothing will sway me from my path!
Tom |
Post by digitaldali // Oct 26, 2006, 4:56am
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BTW, if anyone has any questions about post work, please ask me:)always happy to share and help out. Also, if you want to give me an earful, please feel free to...I'm a good listener and always give others the benefit of the doubt. But, If I break down crying in a pool of my own urine you have to stop:|serious. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Oct 26, 2006, 5:09am
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Chester Desmond
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But, If I break down crying in a pool of my own urine you have to stop
Just tell us why you downloaded that mp3 of Iranian folk music and we'll stop. |
Post by digitaldali // Oct 26, 2006, 5:15am
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Shweet, sounds pretty cool...I'll have to look for that:)My father's side of the family is from Syria...I think it runs in the blood or something. The other side of my family is from Scotland...so, I come from goat AND sheep herding lineage. Pretty neat, huh:| |
Post by Zeipher // Oct 26, 2006, 12:04pm
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Lol, this topic reminds me of those animations that were entered into the animation gallery a few months back which showed an interface unlike trueSpace. That made it up onto the main page, which was funny... however it was quickly dealt with. I do wonder though how many images are being posted which wasn't made with trueSpace. I notice Tom said that a file would take too long to download? Perhaps a simple wireframe would be better and faster... surely that would whittle out the models from the photos :) |
Post by Methusela // Oct 27, 2006, 1:13am
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Perhaps even a simple screenshot of their entire workspace. Although I suppose a truely determined cheater could photoshop the screenshot too... |
Post by Steinie // Oct 27, 2006, 1:48am
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Steinie
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I'm Ok with TomG response. The purpose of this thread was not about the Artists but about what Caligari is accepting as TS works. If they want "Commercial" works then by all means anything goes. Thats how its done in the real world so why not here? PS is a major Commercial application in the real world so why not use it.
It's their Gallery so they can accept anything they want. In the real world your going to have Silo, Hexagon, PS, plugins, Vue, (I said that one as a joke for someone here), and everything else in your works with hopefully TS. In a dogpound they call it a Mutt. In the Commercial world they call it "Illustration", in the Fine Art World, they would call it "Cheating" I'm just going to call them a "Mutt" |
Post by digitaldali // Oct 27, 2006, 4:59am
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digitaldali
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bark bark! Actually, I only use TS and Photoshop CS2 for all my works. If I use PS for anything other than matte painting, it's usually just for preparing a backdrop. I'll attach some pics to illustrate:
I used PS, obviously, to get the "volumetric" lighting effects and decrease contrast.
The blurring is just DOF in post processing (also located in TS:P) Hope that clears up that weird li'l piece. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 27, 2006, 5:11am
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Steinie
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Yes I could tell how you did it from the original. Thanks for the info. What I was trying to get Caligari to do for the contest was this.
http://www.3dluvr.com/carles/Boats_t.htm
Can you do this?
TomG already stated this is not possible or necessary. |
Post by TomG // Oct 27, 2006, 5:23am
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TomG
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It's not necessary to enter the contest, that's true (and I think it would make the contest take up much more time to judge, when time is almost always at a premium!).
Now the great thing about the forums though is you can ask artists if they would share such things in the forum. Some will, some won't. Some are very protective over their work and won't share info on just how they got that lighting, or what that material was. Some will share wireframes, some will not. Some don't have time to write up just how things were done, and some do (in fact, some do as part of their contest entry, and some don't - we get everything from a blank field to several paragraphs about the work!).
Whatever they choose, that's their right as the artist and owner of the work, but it's sure possible to ask!
HTH!
Tom |
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