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How much PS is being allowed in Gallery?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
How much PS is being allowed in Gallery? // Roundtable
Post by Johny // Nov 4, 2006, 5:13am
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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Steinie, I think we need to buy Photoshop first rather than out money for upgrade tS. :D
Why?
tS4 + PS make nice image rahter than pure tS4 LW.
tS4 + pS make nice image rather than pure tS5 LW.
tS4 + PS make nice image rather than pure tS6 LW.
Wait... You must buy Vray for tS7 first before you buy PhotoShop ;)
Because you already have tS 7.11, I suggest you to learn tS7's jscript if you interesting on make animation with tS7. Why? With Script we have freedom for animation all thing. :) |
Post by Steinie // Nov 6, 2006, 2:35am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Because you already have tS 7.11, I suggest you to learn tS7's jscript if you interesting on make animation with tS7. Why? With Script we have freedom for animation all thing. :)
To be honest with you Johny,I'd rather be an Artist then a mathematician. Scripting is not my idea of a good time. It's nice that LE, scripting etc is there for you guys but not me. In the big boy studios there are seperate departments that do that stuff, it's not done by the artist. (not saying they couldn't be)
In the mechanical design areas were movements can be described with math you guys will shine. Do the same thing with a living thing and I'll think it's boring. You know when you watch a show that is suppose to be real but your thinking "this is scripted".....that's the feeling.
I liked your chart on how to make older TS versions better than new;) I hope this is not the case.... |
Post by Tiles // Nov 6, 2006, 3:36am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I know that it is offtopic, but that's the whole part i dislike at TS 7. TS 7.11 is rocket science for even the simplest things. Where is the easiness of earlier versions gone?
I heard this rumour that it is powerful with all this scripting stuff. But how powerful is it really when after nearly a year nearly nothing else than ultra complicated stuff appears just to add and configure toolbars that should be present and easily configurable anyway? Where are this powerful scripts everybody mentions? They simply doesn't appear in the ammount it should when it's really this powerful.
I needed over a week and a long thread here at the board just to setup my workspace in the modeler. Just to stumble over bugs when i tried to work with TS7. That was the point where i switched back to TS 6.6. And i haven't touched TS 7.11 anymore. Well, let's wait for TS 7.5. But to be honest, i have lost hope. Hoping since years ...
To be more ontopic: I think that it should be allowed to use Photoshop for a render. As long as you postprocess a rendered picture with Photoshop. And not when you use a rendered picture to postprocess a Photoshop picture :)
There are free alternatives by the way. The Gimp has even a plugin to load PS plugins :) |
Post by splinters // Nov 6, 2006, 4:17am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Tiles, I understand how you feel about 7.11 but it really is work persevering with. Once you get your workflow in a similar vein to tS6.6 but with the new features it really is better and I cannot actually use 6.6 fluidly any more.
And if it helps, I dread using the LE as I simply don't understand it but there have been some impressive things done with it so far. |
Post by Steinie // Nov 6, 2006, 4:28am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Tiles,
What you describe can lose users faster then anything else. If it takes longer to get the application to work than creating work why bother? It takes many many hours to learn 3D applications but if that time is making the application work I can understand your frustrations.
I've been using this program for a very long time and I want it to succeed more then them! The number one problem I see is that they haven't cleaned up their mess. The interface HAS to be cleaned up! Too much baggage. Come out with a Standardized interface and hide the customizational stuff. Make it easy to get to for the techies, customizers and the experimenters.
Edit: I was under the impression that 7.11 would clean up the duplicate icons....it didn't. The install of TS 7 should ask if you want all those libraries installed (maybe I missed the question?) Why install tabs for dual monitors if I don't have them? This should have been an option where I decide. Demo files should be an install option. |
Post by e-graffiti // Nov 6, 2006, 7:35am
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e-graffiti
Total Posts: 171
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To be honest with you Johny,I'd rather be an Artist then a mathematician.
I dont think tS should be hard to setup but I like the fact that TS allows us to be BOTH artistic and mathematicians. DaVinci's name was used earlier in this thread and he like Michaelanglo were both:
architect, anatomist, sculptor, engineer, inventor, mathematician, musician, and painters
Now that is a mouth full :) |
Post by Tiles // Nov 6, 2006, 8:21am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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What you describe can lose users faster then anything else.
Indeed. But how frustrated would they be when they even would pay money for? They never would check back. Even when things would change. Name it: TS 7 is an intermediate solution. And needs a big improvement.
I've been using this program for a very long time and I want it to succeed more then them!
Same here. Am using trueSpace since years. And i want it to become a winner. The intend why i posted my statement is not to scare users away. It's to name things. So that it can be improved and fixed. A thing that i once did with TS 6.6. I even tracked some bugs as down as possible and described it in the old bugbox. Nothing happened. The bugs remained. No fixes appeared.
Same happens here with TS 7 now it seems. Nobody even tries to name things as they are. So how should improvement appear? Everybody seems to be happy.
Except the people that doesn't even think of buying TS because formerly TS users tell them to keep their fingers away. I know not of one formerly TS user that has regret the switch to other software. But you will not read this in the Caligari forum. This happens at other places. Have more than once read such statements. Current discussion at the german trueSpace board goes about the new version of Cinema4D for example. And damn, i can even understand them. I who loves trueSpace ...
There are improvements compared to TS 6.6, no question. But the price is very high. Too high for me at the moment. Starting TS 7 means to start three applications at once. The modeler, with old bugs from TS 6.6 and new ones. The new architecture called Player, which is too incomplete for my taste. And a bridge to communicate between those two. No wonder that there are some flaws. Starting TS 6.6 means to start one application.
As told, my first impressions when i started to work with Modeler was the battle with the workspace setup and two lost features which dramatically decrease my workflow speed compared to TS 6.6. Which scares ME away. And i am not only experienced in using TS, but also a lover of this software ;) |
Post by Délé // Nov 6, 2006, 10:07am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I heard this rumour that it is powerful with all this scripting stuff. But how powerful is it really when after nearly a year nearly nothing else than ultra complicated stuff appears just to add and configure toolbars that should be present and easily configurable anyway? Where are this powerful scripts everybody mentions? They simply doesn't appear in the ammount it should when it's really this powerful.
ah bummer, it was just a rumour. :( |
Post by GraySho // Nov 6, 2006, 1:05pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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ah bummer, it was just a rumour. :(
Don't take it personal Délé. You've done some great things, but Tiles is right in many ways. The scripting and LE is almost treated as the holy cow here, maybe to distract from the missing features and other flaws. But very little results have been seen, except the stuff for the UI, that should be have been done by Caligari in the first place (basic features). I haven't seen any complex animations where I could say "how the hell was that done?"
I'm not very good at scripting (well, let's say I suck), nonetheless I see it as a nice addition for those who want and can use it. But there are those who are "just" artists (or try to be :rolleyes: ), and I feel like those are left behind ATM. |
Post by Délé // Nov 6, 2006, 1:42pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I was just being a smart @$$. :) I do disagree with the implication that the scripting is not powerful in tS7 though. I think it's extremely powerful. I think the mere fact that people can write scripts to customize the UI is one good example of just how powerful it is. I do agree however that the UI should be intuitive enough so that they don't have to write such scripts. |
Post by Tiles // Nov 6, 2006, 10:25pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Sorry when i offended you or any other with my opinion. Wasn't my intention. I hope you can forgive me. Still, now we have a discussion, finally ;)
I do agree however that the UI should be intuitive enough so that they don't have to write such scripts.
That's the point :)
I think it's extremely powerful.
In my opinion powerful doesn't only mean that you could do everything with it, but also easy to use. I miss the second point somehow. Else we would see much more scripted stuff :) |
Post by TomG // Nov 7, 2006, 5:23am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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"In my opinion powerful doesn't only mean that you could do everything with it, but also easy to use. I miss the second point somehow. Else we would see much more scripted stuff"
Actually, experience makes me disagree. ShaderLab (which I was on the beta team for) and ShaderMagic are both very easy to use to write your own shaders. One is pure scripting with no links, and one is link based. So both bases were covered in terms of development styles. You really couldn't get easier systems.
Out of the many many trueSpace users, how many chose to develop their own shaders?
Mere handfuls. Almost no-one, DESPITE the fact those systems were very easy. I think there was no way you could make easier shader development systems than those two.
In other words, no matter how easy the system, only a few people move on to develop things in detail. Many might tweak things for their own use and keep quiet and not share their work, but few move on to develop, even where the system is easy.
So the fact that you don't see many people developing new things in it is not, I would say, an indication of how easy it is to use or otherwise, but an indication of how many people move on to develop things even when the opportunity becomes accessible.
So we're not overly surprised to see this level of development for it. On the other hand, I know a lot of people use it as a new Scene Editor, to find select and organise the scene. They don't develop a single new function, but they still find the LE useful.
To wrap up this point, we never invested a huge amount of time in LE development - it is in fact a natural extension of the way that the underlying objects / data structures work in tS7. The objects work that way to allow new tools, new animation abilities, new physics, shared spaces, and more. Everyone is using those in tS7, so the development time into that was well worth it!
The LE simply "visualises" this message passing structure, just as the 3D view "visualises" the scene. So it's not like there had to be a great amount of work in putting together "the LE" which detracted from other improvements, it was more a natural extension of how things were developed "behind the scenes" in the program, and the benefits of those developments are all the above (and more, such as the fact it is easier to develop things in tS7 for developers).
Based on my involvement on systems that allowed people to develop entirely without having to be programmers and have programming languages, I always held that we would only see a group of only a few people develop new items. With just a few developing, it takes time for the library of objects to grow - once those objects are out there though, you will see lots of people USE them even if they don't develop, just as a lot of people used ShaderLab shaders without ever once making a shader.
Bear in mind that a lot of those willing to learn to develop are the same kind of people who get involved in the beta team - and that means that they've not had as much time to develop objects as they might have, they've been wrapped up in beta testing the next version. We also have those who can develop objects wrapped up in other projects too, which we know of but which are not publically visible or shareable, again reducing the amount of visible output, since their efforts go into those projects and not into things going out into the public domain. This reduces visibility of what is being developed.
So, the object library is growing, but slowly - that said, we're about to see some new ones released soon on the web pages.
Oh, and we also see people develop things, but not send them in to us for sharing. That means there is more going on than meets the eye - if someone sent us a pack of 10 widgets with details on what each was useful for, we'd make a download somewhere on the resources section of the site. But those who are making widgets are pretty much keeping them to themselves ;)
Same with objects - and you can take this as an invitation to submit your creations for consideration! We'd be happy to put user developed work on site for others to download. Right now most of those submissions have been "hidden" on these forums, where people see them for a week when they have current posts, and then they sink to obscurity after that when no new posts appear in the thread.
We'd be happy to put things on the resource web pages though as permanent downloads for people :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Tiles // Nov 8, 2006, 2:29am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Hmm,
Thanks for your detailed answer :)
I have once searched for resources, examples, tutorials, documentations etc. how you can create your own shaders in shader magic. But i haven't found a good one. And i was simply unable to figure out how to do it. So for me it was very hard and i finally gave up.
Same happens here with trueSpace 7 and its scripting it seems. Problem remains. It MAY be easy. But where is all the stuff? Where are the examples to proof it and to learn from?
Anyway, that's not the point. Maybe the future will show us some amazing stuff. The original point was that ts 7 is ways more complicated to handle than necessary. And to start a discussion about it :) |
Post by TomG // Nov 8, 2006, 3:20am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I prefer the "old fashioned" coding approach to constructing from links, so I never did delve into Shader Magic and kept myself strictly ShaderLab. I do much the same in the LE too, looking to write as close to "one self containing script" as is possible ;) Though as more and more objects become available it does become easier and easier to just hook things together to achieve effects, even for an old school programmer like me.
As for where is the good stuff, prime example:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=18615#post18615
This is a pretty significant collection, and in team spirit there are already tweaks and improvements being made by others, in less than a day since the release of the original.
Obviously this has taken time to produce, and not just because of the coding, the whole thing has some nice installations and user interfaces, so a lot of design work in there too. So the good things are beginning to appear, pretty much right on time I would say given when we released and the updates made since then!
As for trueSpace7 itself being too complicated, I think that isn't the case, though it can be argued that what is presented to the user is too complicated. As noted, we are considering removing the LE from the default, what-you-see-when-you-first-fire-up-tS layout. That way people won't be presented with it right away, and they'll feel less overwhelmed and can introduce themselves to it as and when they need.
Other streamlining and simplifying is going on too of course, as the new tools are added, the modeler is made more and more redundant, etc. We'll always keep on moving toward greater simplification and streamlining workflow as we go!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by rj0 // Nov 8, 2006, 11:10am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Hmmm, let's see,
Person A creates a 3D scene and uses and tweaks Pyrocluster and trueParticles to create an awesome explosion, fire, and smoke.
Person B creates a 3D scene and paints (or maybe clones) a similar explosion, fire, snd smoke.
Both scenes look the same. Which is the more impressive work of art?
rj |
Post by Steinie // Nov 8, 2006, 3:22pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Person C takes a flat plane and puts a real MPEG-3 explosion on it. C looks better then A or B so why bother with A or B?:rolleyes: |
Post by GraySho // Nov 8, 2006, 10:01pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Person C takes a flat plane and puts a real MP3 explosion on it. C looks better then A or B so why bother with A or B?:rolleyes:
Person A has more control over the explosion and has not to depend on good footage ;) |
Post by Tiles // Nov 9, 2006, 2:14am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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As for where is the good stuff, prime example:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespac...8615#post18615
Alright, partially convinced. It goes forward :) |
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