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tS7, future and some thoughts
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
tS7, future and some thoughts // Roundtable
Post by GraySho // Nov 6, 2006, 12:49pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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First I wanted to reply to another thread (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=18421&postcount=7) but finally decided to create a new one, as it's quite much I have to say now. So here we go:
I feel very much the same way as prodigy. tS7 to me is more of a handicap than a help.
Normally I work with 6.6, but from time to time, the cracks that do all the scripting and
DX stuff wake my interest and I check out the new features of tS7. After a few hours I'm
getting tired of all the workarounds and flaws and don't start it again for a few weeks.
Let me name a few things I disklike, and flaws about the new stuff of tS7 (nothing about
model side)
********
Player
#lights and cameras can't be hidden in an easy way (don't tell me to go do it in LE, that's not easy)
#lights and cameras are lit by the scene light setup (thus sometimes invisible)
#widgets can't be toggled on and off (no LE either, please)
#not all light types are supported properly
#ground plane is just solid or invisible
#no easy way to switch drawing mode for objects
#no object info panel (numerical input)
#no object highlight for selected objects
#no material editor
#no render buttons
#no boolean operations
#no primitives
These are very basic features, and some might be available in the next release, but some
have been asked since the release of tS7.0 and nothing happened. There are workarounds, I
know, there are a lot of things that can be realised with LE, I know that as well. But to
be honest, these are features that have to be shipped with the standard installation,
usable for the average (3d) joe.
*********
Next on to the stack view. It's a mess IMO.
I don't know where to start, because to me it has no clear structure. It seems like it's a
container for everything that doesn't fit very well into LE or player. It took me quite
some time to figure out where to find what, and how to activate this or that option.
#Preferences tab
I said before that preferences don't belong to the stack view. Maybe the naming is a bit
unlucky, and should be called settings. Keep the LE settings (show/hide cameras, lights
etc),as they might be used quite often. So these are not preferences, but settings. I also
suggest they belong to the LE and not to the stack view, as they don't affect anything else
than LE. Render settings would be something for the settings tab. Now they are in the tools
tab, and it took me forever to find them. Are rendersettings tools? Player rendering and
postprocess is a setting, well they are there. Well done. Though there should be buttons
for the most common presets like there used to be. Maybe I left something out, but you get
my idea (?).
#Libraries tab
There are so many libraries, selecting or scrolling to the desired library takes too much
time. The first thing I'd do is move all libraries which are for LE only to the LE (makes
sense?).
Next thing, configurations and layouts don't belong to a library. e.g. there's no (simple)
way to save a layout without stackview. Why not having a menuitem for layout functions.
Common, we don't save layouts every minute, and menus are not that bad. And they stay out
of the way as long as you don't need them. Less clutter and more room to concentrate on the
subject (art).
Same goes for preferences. They belong to a menu. Preferences are preferences, if you had
to change them every minute they wouldn't be a preference. Menu item.
So, we got rid of a few buttons that most users never ever use or just for special
occasions. Less clutter, less confusion = good.
#Objects tab
OK, that really needs a complete overhaul. In it's current appearance it's totally useless.
IMO this should change into a scene manager. A tree view, with all objects listed. Next to
the objects could be info about layer, visibility (toggle), various tags like look at,
receive shadow, cast shadow, etc., you get the idea. A lot of functionality could be done
within such a scene manager, without manouvering through icon popup lists or hidden
dialogue boxes. This idea isn't mine, nor new. I've just tried a demo of a different 3D app
where such a scene manager has evolved to a very important and handy tool. No need to
reinvent the wheel, and tree views are quite common in today's software packages.
#Tools tab
Should'nt be a tab, as I want to have acces to my tool's settings all the time. Rather have
a tools window that can be docked somewhere. It just has to show the settings of the
currently selected tool, so it won't take up much space.
#Commands
Can't comment much on it, never used it. I guess it's fine as it is.
********
Background widgets
I just tried my hands on background widgets. The possibilities are incredible, but it's a
pain to just get a simple navigation setup to work. Took me a coulple of hours to make it
temporarily work, some strange behaviours still remain (bugs?). The other time I used it,
linked up stuff vanished, and some functions work from time to time, sometimes they don't.
Long story short, it's too much for such a simple thing as navigation (or mouse-)setup. My
vote for an old fashioned but relyable dialogue box, called by a menu. Give us the
possibilities to customize every mouse button (including wheel) in conjunction with
shift/ctrl/alt keys. Of course these settings can be safed and loaded.
********
Keyboard shortcuts
Again, menu>keyboard shortcuts/whateveritscalled, can be safed and loaded.
********
Preferences
I mentioned this quite often. Should be a menu item, as it's not changed very often. There
be everything like keyboard shortcuts, mouse setup, general options, paths, etc.
********
Status line
bring it back please. As it was, not the new one. Everything was there, tool info, keyboard
shortcut, progress report. It has been crippled to progress report, and that doesn't even
work well. Besides, it took up less workspace, because now we have an unnecessary titlebar.
*********
Some final thoughts
I know, trueSpace was and is unique with it's iconized interface, and it was quite easy to
learn. No need to look through a forrest of menus. I understand that you keep holding on
this, but I guess tS will reach a point (or already has reached) where there's simply too
much of functions to have everything on icons. They are not bad, but is it really necessary
to everything like that? Common, you have to read the manual to figure out how to shutdown
truespace properly. Stave state icon, new scene, new windows, collaboration, all this stuff
could be banned to menus/preferences. When I look at tS7 it seems like "menu equals evil"
and "icon equals good". If you continue with that policy, I fear it will have the effect
that learning curve increases drastically. As I said, some stuff belongs to menus to keep
focus on art and the process of creation, instead of digging through a forrest of icons.
I'm really concerned where tS is heading to, and in it's current version I don't feel that
it's a tool that supports my creativity, but rather a tool that needs my focus on
workarounds and spagetthi dragging.
If you are still reading this, congratulations. I might not have written total nonesense ;)
A concerned tS user. |
Post by splinters // Nov 6, 2006, 1:10pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Some good points Graysho and I have been experimenting with a concept UI that adresses many of these points although it is just a pet project and not linked to Caligari at the moment...it will probably form the basis for my phd study if I ever get off my lazy butt and start it...but I think you would like it...:D
Anyways, one key thing to remember is that model side, as it is, will be phased out and replaced with player which, in terms of icons, is a lean mean machine and more minimal although newer features are promised to be ported over. While this will not address your problems with 7.11 it does mean that a more streamlined UI should be on the cards in the future. |
Post by GraySho // Nov 6, 2006, 1:18pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Some good points Graysho and I have been experimenting with a concept UI that adresses many of these points although it is just a pet project and not linked to Caligari at the moment...it will probably form the basis for my phd study if I ever get off my lazy butt and start it...but I think you would like it...:D
Sounds interesting. I only put my thoughts about the UI on (virtual) paper, you seem to do the next step already :cool:
Anyways, one key thing to remember is that model side, as it is, will be phased out and replaced with player which, in terms of icons, is a lean mean machine and more minimal although newer features are promised to be ported over. While this will not address your problems with 7.11 it does mean that a more streamlined UI should be on the cards in the future.
I know that, I just question the "when", and when will player be more than just a doodling sketchbook. Why I can't accept it as a real tool, is mentioned in my first post ;) |
Post by GraySho // Nov 6, 2006, 1:36pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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One more thing to emphasize the easy customizability of 3D space navigation. If tS want's to become more recognized by the big wide 3D community, it must be easy to configure it to anyone's liking, be it a maya, max, xsi or whatever user. LE is definitley not easy to use, just to do that. |
Post by Délé // Nov 6, 2006, 1:53pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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You have a lot of good points. I agree with most of them. I too think that things got a little complicated in 7. I do hope that tS will become more user friendly in future versions. There is a lot of new power and functionality in tS, I suppose that it will just take a little time to iron out the kinks. |
Post by roman // Nov 6, 2006, 5:09pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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#lights and cameras can't be hidden in an easy way (don't tell me to go do it in LE, that's not easy)
#lights and cameras are lit by the scene light setup (thus sometimes invisible)
#widgets can't be toggled on and off (no LE either, please)
#not all light types are supported properly
#ground plane is just solid or invisible
#no easy way to switch drawing mode for objects
#no object info panel (numerical input)
#no object highlight for selected objects
#no material editor
#no render buttons
#no boolean operations
#no primitives With exemption of Booleans and possibly lights lit by other scene lights you will see all the rest in TS7.5
I agree with many of your coments on Stack and you will see improvements there as well. As for LE, the way you describe it it seems like some tool or a place. In fact it is neither, it is just another aspect which user can chose to look at any TS context. Unlike 3D aspect which is good for direct manipulation or 1D aspect which equates to text editing, LE 2D aspect shows constraints between context objects as 2D links. It is not meant to replace traditional panels or 3D widgets. |
Post by prodigy // Nov 7, 2006, 5:47am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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First.. Its good to seeyou ORMAN.. Sometimes we need YOUR opinion..
We see this new metamorph (NO METAPHORS) on TS... ;)
(I THINK) the changes on TS7 are not very consolidated.
Exelent Good points.
1) HDRI
2) VRAY SUPPORT (THE BEST)
3) "work" with Dx9
I dont find more than 3... (AT MY POINT OF VIEW)
VERY BAD POINTS
1) Incresse the System Memory Requirements.. 1g to work well.. not less. TS6.6 work fantastic with 256mb.
2) Dont see real new capabilites on the model side..
3) More New bugs on Model side + Bugs from 6.6 not fixed..
4) Duplicate anything doit on model or player to the other side.. Spend lot of processor work and sistem memory Not optimizated...
5) THE New UI.. I see on 1 Software.. 2 Difierent UI... Only icon change..
6) Scenes saved on TS7 format have more than the Triple file size than the TS6.6 scenes.. Why?? i dont know but that its not a good point at all!!!
7) To tSnet, TS7 bring a new problem.. because now you need powerfulls pc to run ts7... 1g memory for example on any workstation.. Thats why i cant buy TSnet..
8) Have 2 diferent object and scenes format on 1 Software!! not consolidate one format and export or import the other..
9) LE its very unfriendly and complicated.
10) 2 Keyshortcuts from each side... (you cant customizate, at this time i dont know how! and thats its a bad point on the UI.. why you must do twice what can be in once?) Sorry my english :rolleyes:
The LE... Are not usesfull at all for me.. yes maybe for developers who make scripts.. but not in my case and for many other users who only know model and make animations..
Bridge THE WORST thing EVER on TS7...
1) First is because its not perfect.. and generate more new bugs..
2) Duplicate all the scene on Player and Model duplicating the system memory requirements..
3) Duplicate ALL moves, ALL texture changes, ALL LIGHT settings.. That its totally unoptimizated and spend processor work... On large scenes.. MOVE any object HUFF!!! or make an undo!!! HUFFF
I say one time "blow the bridge" because i HATE the player side, and somebody tells me If we blow the bridge the model side be killed.. and Model its a BIG plugin on TS7..
IF TS7 have a Big Plugin "Model Side" TS7 its not nothing without that plugin, because the best part of TS7 its on the model side TS6...The best and the most usable...
3dMAX upgrade deir software file format.. From 3ds to Max.. Caligari its on that way.. to change the old sctructure of fileformat to the new one.. thats why are 2 formats.. and the bridge its for use that old formats.. ok??
My question is.. Why caligari doesnt work on TS7 and create an import and Export like Max or any other progs?, to run cobs or scenes Caligari create a bridge to run the full program on it?? Its like max to support 3ds must have the full 3dstudio 1 inside!! i dont understand!!
I think the changes on TS7 not implicate more stability or performance than the TS.6.6 .... Its like well guys.. lets start a new program.. Hey but we need model tools!! ummm pick the older software and continue developing new things..... Thats what happen on ts7.11 at this moment.. (my point of view)
COST!!
FIRST Caligari its very accesible. I KNOW!!
I think in loud.. for example.. We buy TS 6.6 ok 500$ at this moment... Then the new TS7.11 other 500$
The point its.. The price for TS7.11 its only for the PLAYER, LE and HDRI??? because the model its the same as ts6.6 I dont find diferences bewteen
Model and TS6.6 .. And Ts6.6 its more stable, fastest and optimizated..
And the player, its not very usessfull at this point. ITS EXCELENT TO SEE THE MODEL with full bumpmapping,, texture shaders.. but.. you canot work with the player side to build anything without the model..
LE, its very very complicated.. Many things im not understan why or for what it works and i think i dont needit understand it because i must model objects not learn how to make scripts.. For dose who know?? good..
I say on other post.. Why Caligari make a Bridge?? And the asnwer whas .. Because you have not the old capabilitys. (Plugins, scenes and objects)
And my new question is... Its for the old capabilitys or its because the new TS7 its not a consolidated as a 3d Sofware for its own and need years of developin?? (Excluding the Model Mode)
Plugin developers are in deed "REAL echos from the past" because i dont see any new plugin.. Only Vray ... The best point in all TS7, but need LOOOOOT of developing.. and hear the users needs.. Like texture mapping.. Light falloff.
and bla bla bla..
And from Caligari Team..
We need a LIST of bugs whats gonna fix on next releases.. Or nobody know whats gonna fixed??
And a clear vision about the future of TRUESPACE.. Truespace at this point its like TRUESPACE and some Game MAP EDITOR..
Realy Oman.. i wont to know a clear image about Truespace..
Like.. The player whas gonna be the old model.. with the same tools, the same plugins.. the same at all but.. with more performance and visual effects.. Thats what i need to here..
FINAL CONCLUSION!
TS7 its like:
Ts6.6 its a car on a way... when apear TS7 .. the way it open to 2 other ways.. the old way.. and a new way.. AND TS7 run with a weel on one way and the other weel on the other..
Its dificult to see the end of the road at this point..
Roman.. dont take my comments like a ungry client, or from someone with no experience.. I work lot with TS5 TS6 and TS7.. and thats what i see..
I dont like to much this TS7 way... I hope you understand me...
Best Regards. |
Post by stan // Nov 7, 2006, 6:43am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Still no boolean on player side in ts7.5 ..sad..:(
I am one who hopes the bridge will be around for along time..for backward compatibility..it will be very useful for loading old scenes, using old plugins etc..that's a selling point and good for people who buy the new truespace7 or 8 series a few years from now..
it may be less confusing if 'model' side was called something like (ts6.6 ) 'compatibility mode'...and player called 'standard mode'
good to hear the stack library is getting an overhaul..so many formats to import/export now..with no visible means of knowing what is what until you try to import or export..for example in the UI library there are two formats excluding library format..RsObj and RsCmp..
why the heck are images turned into RsImg..that's nuts..that should be an internal thing..why should images have some strange extension that makes them un-useable anywhere but in ts7..???..
I hope the LE is hidden from view in default layouts ..as some say it's too confusing..I use it alot, but there is not much else to do in the player except learn scripting ..
both the library and LE should be on the main workspace window as tabs..that open dockable or floating windows..one of the best parts about truespace is the full screen workspace..
get rid of that row of tabs with the layouts on top that also confuses people. how often do you need to change layouts..it's just wasting space..I removed that in the first week of getting ts7..
hopefully SIZE has been implementd in ts7.5 [player], scale and how it works isn't very useful..put an object in the library and it become scale of 1..no matter what size it is..
it would be nice to see a list of additional basic features that have been added to player in the captain's blog.. hint hint..:)
my opinion, Thanks Gord :cool:
p.s..brigher icons as an option |
Post by TomG // Nov 7, 2006, 6:47am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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See my other points in other threads. Mostly, see the three options that were open to tS7. You say you hate the bridge - well, would you prefer the other options?
"The LE... Are not usesfull at all for me.. "
As noted in another thread, then don't use it. It's not a law :) As noted in another thread, it did not sidetrack from important development.
"because i HATE the player side, "
The player side is tS7. The model side will disappear and the player will be all that remains. It will have the tools you are used to from the modeling side at that point though. Without the player side (ie tS7) you wouldnt have V-Ray for instance.
"lets start a new program.. Hey but we need model tools!! ummm pick the older software and continue developing new things..... Thats what happen on ts7.11 at this moment.. (my point of view)"
That is what happened. We only have finite developers and time. The new core had to go down for what people had been asking us for, for a long time. The only option was to not have tS7 released at all yet, and still be waiting, while we move model tools across (and even then, you'd have no way at all to use old plugins in tS7). Then people would be complaining why no tS7 yet.
You are asking for ideal solutions, when this is not an ideal world! Everything requires compromise. And of course if you want the third option - "still no tS7 until the tools are moved across" - you actually still have it, as you can wait for tS7.5. Some people are of course doing that.
So we still feel that this was the best compromise available. Every solution had to be a compromise, the perfect solution was not open to us without having a ton more manpower, and that was not a choice!
Anyway, the same issues are arising in different threads now, so I would ask that there be consolidation and raise these points in one place only.
That said, I think we've answered these now to the best of our ability - the answers have been out there already of course, we have always kept people informed on these subjects, right from day one.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Garion // Nov 7, 2006, 8:51am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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The player side is tS7. The model side will disappear and the player will be all that remains.
So why was TS 7 advertised and sold as ...erm TS7 when it is really TS 66 (which a lot of us have already bought and paid for) with a wee bit of what TS 7 will be bolted on?
Its clear that TS 7 is .. if anything a work in progress, an unfinished application and one that will not really exist until the modeler is totally scrapped.
Modeler or TS66 as its better known is the BULK of TS 7 with the player gimmick being the new eye candy. At least until the tools any normal person would expect to be implimented in a modern 3D application, are in fact implimented..
As the modeling tools are all in TS66 at this moment in time, what exactly was I charged a 3 x price hike for?
Sorry but, I ordered TS7 and what I got was TS66 with a pretty face and to me thats false advertising.
Truespace at this time is a mess and I fear its going to get worse before it gets better (if it ever does).
As the Clarion of Doom! I say 'Take heed, thy end is near'
Still waiting to see what TS7.5 brings to the party, but if even that is not going to be complete then its 'up stakes' and off to pastures new.
Which is a shame
This is my own personal opinion, as a long time Truespace user. Some may agree, others may disagree, it matters not as I respect all opinions expressed by others, though I may disagree with them. :D
Cheers
Garion |
Post by TomG // Nov 7, 2006, 9:35am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Covered the "it's not really a complete application" in detail before so won't go into detail again - the main point is while other apps update, due to the nature of the beast, what is new code and what is old is usually invisible. When you click on an icon, do you know if that icon connects to code that is five years old, or new last week? Is Photoshop CS2 "mostly Photoshop CS" with some new code, and tweaks to the old code?
What we have been "hung" for with claims of it being incomplete is that you happen to be able to see what is in old and what is in new. Usually you can't, so this argument doesnt crop up, even though the other apps have done exactly the same as us (except they havent gone as far as to develop new applications from scratch to meet the needs of their users).
The reason is we did a fundamental re-write, to give everyone the features they have been requesting for years. To meet those needs, a total re-write was required. That brings us back to the same points as to the options we had open - tS7 with no old tS66 (complaints about not enough tools), waiting to release (complaints about no updates for years), or a encapsulating tS6.6 into tS7 (complaints about the bridge).
There was no escaping complaints since the world is not ideal. If it were, we would have a team of thousands of developers simply rattle of tS7 in a matter of weeks, but that option would mean bankrupcy to pay their wages.
tS7 is not "false advertising" - whether you like the way we choose to overcome the disadvantages of moving to an entirely new code base or whether you dislike them is one thing, but it still does everything it says on the tin.
And that is as much as I'll say on this old chestnut :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Garion // Nov 7, 2006, 10:18am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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Given that TS 7 is mostly TS6.6 would it not have been more upfront to call it TS6.7 or 6.8? At least until the real TS7 is released with all the tools implimented in the Player side?
The hype that surounded its pre-release made it look like all the new bells and whistles were in-situ and we were going to be able to do Uber things with it.
Yet on release we discovered that most if not all the modelling would be done in the OLD code base application that we already owned, so really the Player side was almost usless.
My point is - and yes I know its been flogged to death - is that most of TS 7 is just a bolted on TS6.6. So releasing it as Version 7 and tripling the price is a bit of a slap in the face. Releasing it as TS 6.8 and as a preview of what was to come in the future may have been the better route.
I understand that Caligari Coded itself into a corner and had to do a re-write, as a coder myself with over 20 years experience I have seen this happen many times and I can understand it.
Its all water under the bridge as we cant go back and change the past.
But its important for Caligari to realise some members of their customer base have very strong concerns for the future of Truespace, that there are serious issues that need to be resolved and that TS7.5 will be the make or break for a lot of us.
I can only speak for myself when I say. Personaly I want it to succeed, but I will continue to play 'Devils Advocate' whenever the need arises.
Cheers
Garion |
Post by TomG // Nov 7, 2006, 10:32am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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"But its important for Caligari to realise some members of their customer base have very strong concerns for the future of Truespace, that there are serious issues that need to be resolved and that TS7.5 will be the make or break for a lot of us."
We quite agree! We know a lot of focus is on tS7.5, as we are indeed moving a lot of tS6.6 items across into the new tS7 code, as well as adding animation features (you might call that "moving the bones over from tS6.6" but that would be kind of an understatement!).
So we too are placing a lot of emphasis on tS7.5, it is very important to us too. And we are transitioning from the old to the new, and each step along that transition is exciting for us! New versions reveal more and more of what the new code can do and why such a big step was taken in the complete re-write.
To go along with that, with point you raise about customer concerns on the direction of tS, we'll continue to be open like here, about just why things are the way they are, and where they are going. We've never left anyone in the dark about the bridge, why it is there, how we are handling the transition, etc - we believe this is important too, to open up about some of the "behind the scenes" things like the thinking behind things, as well as behind the scenes on where we are going next and why.
I would say with tS7 we've discussed more of those behind the scenes things than ever, and hopefully it is proving useful :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Paul Boland // Nov 7, 2006, 10:52am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Interesting discussion here, a lot of new to me (not been around the forums for some time due to family issues). I don't have TrueSpace 7. I don't even have TrueSpace 6. I'm still working away in version 5. I have some cash put aside to make the jump over to 7 but am waiting for the release of TrueSpace 7.5 because it's feature list looks very impressive indeed. I am particulary interested in the character animation tools and the new hair/fur tools (for which we still have to see something of).
Having no experience with version 7, I'm not really in a position to debate the issues raised. If TrueSpace 7 is indeed version 6.6 with parts of 7 bolted on, it will still be a substantal upgrade for me. However, reading all this thug-o-war-ing going on here, my mind is cast back to the 3D World review of TrueSpace 7 when it shipped. Now I don't have it to hand and it's been some time since I read it, but I do recall that the review wasn't top notch which was surprising given all the movies and info we had received on 7, prior to release.
Reading what has been said here, I can see both sides of the coin. I can see where Caligari are coming from, and I can understand the upset and concerns of TrueSpace users who having paid a substantial sum of money for version 6.6, were shocked when they found out that doing so again for version 7 handed them just an extension of 6.6.
While I have no experience yet with version 7, I will say that I am concerned about the future of TrueSpace. The loss of modeller in favour of player concerns me. Modeller has been there since TrueSpace 1 and Player, personally, doesn't look like a modelling environment to me (at the moment). Just like others here, I can't help but wonder what the future will hold for TrueSpace 7.
7.5 should be very interesting. It certainly looks the part and I'll be taking the plunge when it's released and moving over to it. Then I'll be able to offer a more objective point of view, but for right now, I'm an eager, yet concerned, TrueSpace user. |
Post by prodigy // Nov 7, 2006, 11:04am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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One thing.. I know Caligari have limit resources.. any in here knows that..
I think Caligari jump more than 1 step on the stair because do TS7.. and jump steps increments the need of resources.. Its proportional..
Im not developer, but i think thats work on any kind of work...
In deed, i the path of TS7, without model mode its brillant...
Realy.. but need the model tools. Texture tools. thats all!
Compact both softwares to 1.. and i know that need time.. and money 2..
First.. the first... But realy Ts7 doesnt do my work easy..
On my case, Vray its the key!..
But others who dont use vray as a need.. i dont know what they have on this new release..
I know, caligari works hard and are very very dificult develop this brand new style.. but at the customer eye its like TS6.8
I see incredibles realtime .. and that is because caligari see that power..
Its wierd all this thing..
Its a paradox...
Best Regards... |
Post by TomG // Nov 7, 2006, 11:05am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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"and Player, personally, doesn't look like a modelling environment to me "
Be assured the Player is indeed a modeling environment! I am stuck using the Modeler just now in tS7.11 since the tools and workflow for my creations are all in there, but I am ITCHING to use the Player.
The view is much faster, easily capable of handing scenes with a smooth frame rate that would drop the Modeler view down to 1 frame per second or less.
It no longer features the directx error where zooming in when in solid view caused the solid preview to "tear away" from the mesh.
The view is very much clearer. The ability to use supersampling or anti-aliasing in the view makes meshes nice and clear (though I can just turn that off if I want every ounce of speed out of the thing!).
The ability to control color, thickness and opacity of both edges and vertices separately is immensely helpful.
While you see the player used in the standalone truePlay, and for nice real-time scenes, that is not really it's intended use. It's primary use is as the modeling environment - just so happens that modeling environment is now so good it is also a means of final delivery for a scene too.
Our big mistake here was calling it the Player. Player and Modeler were indeed very bad names to have chosen, as they gave entirely the wrong impression. "It seemed like a good idea at the time" is all we can say there, but yes, now people think the Modeler is for doing things, and the Player is just for looking at them.
And that is not the intended purpose :)
Note that none of the new tools can be done in the old view (ie the Modeler). The new view is bound to the new functionality, and vice versa - ie the player IS tS7. So things like edge loop select, new SDS algorithm with new controls, normal maps (which render too btw, under V-Ray and Lightworks - they are not just real-time normal maps), and things that are not in tS7.11 like the new animation tools, are all only available in the new view (the "player")
Note that the player is not usable for many right now because of "little details" - don't get me wrong, these are vital, but they are pretty small in terms of getting them added, there;s nothing fundamental getting in the way of having them there!
For instance - switching views with a hotkey; switching from solid to wireframe with a hotkey; an object info box; a material editor; the ability to add primitives with a click rather than drag and drop from libraries.
While each is small, their absence adds up to an environment that can't be used smoothly for creation like the "old view" can. All of these issues were raised a long time back - I myself raised many of them, and other beta testers did too (and are doing).
Trust me, the player is so good you want to model in it - all you are missing are the workflow items to let you do so, and those are issues already raised with the developers, and is a major area of discussion - just what is it the player needs to become viable and even the preferred method of creation in tS7?
Using it will be SO much better than the modeler, and that is totally ignoring benefits like the more accurate texture and lighting representations :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by prodigy // Nov 7, 2006, 11:12am
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prodigy
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I forget.. If Caligari have limit resouces..
Why.. create the LE after create model tools on the player side?? or other most important tools or requirements...
BTW.. this is not a fight.. its a gentel post .. or whatever it calls!! jejejej I MUST LEARN MORE ENGLISH!!!!!
Aprenda Truespace7 en español!!!
BTW.. IF some day Caligari wonts to translate to spanish.. I can Help! :jumpy: jejeje |
Post by GraySho // Nov 7, 2006, 11:48am
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GraySho
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With exemption of Booleans and possibly lights lit by other scene lights you will see all the rest in TS7.5
Glad to hear that, although the light issue is quite important for me. It's not a problem with the default light setup, but if there are just spotlights they disappear. Sometimes they show up as a solid outline if not selected, sometimes they are drawn at as solid only, no wireframe. One has to change they POV to make it visible in front of a lighter background. The screenshot should explain that.
http://www.spacerat.at/truespace/playerlights.jpg
As for LE, the way you describe it it seems like some tool or a place. In fact it is neither, it is just another aspect which user can chose to look at any TS context.
My intention was not to describe LE at all, I just wanted to make it clear that the LE, to me, is not supposed to be a replacement of easily accessible functionality. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against LE. I think it's a great tool or view aspect as you call it. The reason why I mentioned it that often is because it seems to become a trend on this forums to divert from the actual issue and tell someone you can do this already with LE. It was mentioned that some useres even use it as a scene manager. Well, the only reason I can imagine is, because there's nothing else to manage a scene in player. Again, don't take it as a complaint about LE, it's a complaint about too many missing basic features. |
Post by Délé // Nov 7, 2006, 12:00pm
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Délé
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I definately can see why some people are worried about the future of tS. I think it is in an awkward stage right now. I know that my workflow slowed in tS7. However, I definately don't see tS as heading in the wrong direction. Quite to the contrary. I think it's just an awkward phase that is leading to something much better. I can see that the new architecture is very powerful and flexible. When the transition is complete, I believe tS is going to be tons better. So for me it's not a matter of heading in the wrong direction, but how fast we can get through the awkward stage. :)
I guess I figured that I would take this "in-between" time to learn some of the newer tools and power. So when the kinks do get ironed out, I can take full advantage of the program. I realize that the LE and scripting isn't for everyone though.
I really believe that this is just an awkward phase that will pass, and when it does we'll have a much more powerful program. Growing pains you might say. |
Post by Burnart // Nov 7, 2006, 12:18pm
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Burnart
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I'll try to be short! The player side environment doesn't bother me much for what I do with it - which at this stage is use the new SSD and sometimes the mesh reduction tools. The libraries and stack views aren't a problem once you begin to remember where things are. Frankly I had a lot of early confusion of where things were when I first got tS6 after never having used tS before. Change is scary but it can be navigated. I think as more actual modelling and animation tools are ported to the player I'll use it more.
I am much more concerned about the LE encapsulating, scripting and node linking stuff. Thats a whole new ball game and I don't get it and I haven't got the time to fiddle with it - I think with such a major change MORE information, courses, tutorials, samples etc should be provided as a part of the deal and not expect people to keep coughing up cash. You want your current user base to go with you don't you? Perhaps as more tools are added this stuff will become a specialist niche and those of us who just want to make and render models and animations will be able to just get on with it. |
Post by tSplorer // Nov 7, 2006, 6:25pm
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After a few hours I'm getting tired of all the workarounds and flaws and don't start it again for a few weeks.I have no idea what tS7 looks like. I bought 6.6. I uninstalled it after a few weeks of intensive focus. I don't even remember most of what I didn't like about it. One thing I recall was that I was trying to find some additional feature that relates to another (which was one of the features I saw in the ads that attracted me to buy tS.) I remember asking it here and was told that it didn't exist. Which means you have to find some workarounds. My gripe then was this should have been pointed out in the documentation, that such and such doesn't exist and suggest some workaround.) You have to figure out for yourself.
My point here is that I hope that Caligari will do it right this time with tS's future releases: Stop adding "cool" features that would only end up like a splintered piece of feature without any supporting features. If you coud get rid of them, so much the better. How many navigation controls do you have to have to move around 3d space? Ten? The majority of 3d users use only 3.
I don't have a lot of time enumerating the list of things that turned me off tS. I still suggest that it be STREAMLINED. It's nice to show a piece of model done in tS with this cool, new feature. Again, we're not kids who want to play with so and so feature. We're adults who want to build something from start to finish as smooth as possible. I suggest that Roman do that if he has the time. Do a small project about half quarter of Blender's Elephant Dream and see exactly what it's like to do real life projects. Then and only then that he will see how utterly useless many tS features are. |
Post by parva // Nov 7, 2006, 11:33pm
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...only then that he will see how utterly useless many tS features are.
please name those "useless" features. |
Post by roman // Nov 7, 2006, 11:38pm
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My point here is that I hope that Caligari will do it right this time with tS's future releases: Stop adding "cool" features that would only end up like a splintered piece of feature without any supporting features...... I suggest that Roman do that if he has the time. Do a small project about half quarter of Blender's Elephant Dream and see exactly what it's like to do real life projects. Then and only then that he will see how utterly useless many tS features are. You make a good point and there are some TS6 features than are less than usefull. From your previous posts (you praise Hexagon, Silo, Sketchup, Rhino) I sense you are primarily interested in modeling. TS6 has plenty modeling tools, with TS7 we are broadening our reach, these are not just "cool" features they are essential for making 3D content live on web, which is what is happening all around us today.
This week Microsoft released Virtual Earth 3D, a healthy competitor to Google Earth. Unlike Google Earth it has realistic buildings and a company can place 3D ads on top of their virtual buildings. How long will it take before there are virtual people walking virtual streets of real San Francisco, making all kinds of transactions, meeting friends and creating 3D communities? Do not tell me that you are not interested in 3D communities and you will never participate in them, you will and sooner than you think. |
Post by roman // Nov 7, 2006, 11:58pm
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My point is - and yes I know its been flogged to death - is that most of TS 7 is just a bolted on TS6.6. So you are saying that 50+ man years our developement team put in the form of 100 hour work weeks in TS7 architecture is pretty worthless. Thank you as a felow developer for boosting our moral:) |
Post by Tiles // Nov 8, 2006, 1:05am
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I think that wasn't his intention. We all know that Caligari works hard to complete TS7. Keep it up :)
It's OUR moral that goes down the drain at the moment. I think when you would feed us with some small updates from time to time with fixes things would look different ;)
The point is that current development happens mainly behind the scenes. I am not talking about the blog here, which is a great thing and a big improvement compared to earlier marketing strategy. But nearly a year is gone without any hotfixes. And you cannot implement a blog thread to fix the bugs. You need a patch or an update for that. There are too many open ends and flaws which for me slows the workflow speed dramatically down compared to ts 66. Which simply forces me to start ts 6.6 instead ts 7.
I know a little software company with just two programmers. They release fixes every time they have tracked something down and fixed. Sometimes there are three fixes/updates per week for some areas available. Sometimes this small that others may think that it isn't worth the update. But they don't collect stuff to release a mayor update every one or two years. May slow down the main development. But I, the customer, have a good feeling because of this: Something happens. It goes forward. I can be sure that a fix appears as fast as i stumble over a bug and give them a way to reproduce it. And they have a good feeling because they know that this bug is fixed and will not bother them in the future anymore :)
Good example could be the small toolbar issue in TS7 modeler. Why not release a patch so that it is automatically installed? I had a hard battle to install it manually. Or the by Graysho mentioned light thing? Or the lost feature in TS 7 that you cannot longer double click in a field of the Object Info Panel to mark the whole value? Or ...
All the small stuff that is worth a hotfix. Track it down, fix it, release a hotfix. When necessary one fix for one bug or flaw. I am not talking about stopping main development. But from time to time have a look for this minor stuff and release a hotfix.
At the moment we have this situation ( and we have it since years) : A release appears. Every release has its flaws and bugs. Nothing wrong with it. That`s software development. BUT no fixes appears for a long time. Then the next release appears after a year. Some bugs may be fixed. But then there are new bugs. And some of the old bugs are still present. Which also rests a year or two in the release until the next release appears.
In my opinion that's the main reason why trueSpace is an exotic software nowadays. Caligari customers know that. Once introduced bugs rests a long time in TS. Still, a rocksolid and comfortable software is more important than the coolest feature. Especially when a promised feature doesn't work because of a bug. And no fix will appear. This looses customers.
Back to boosting your moral. Every person that is in this discussion here is still interested. And tries to raise the quality of trueSpace. We are fans ;) |
Post by TomG // Nov 8, 2006, 2:50am
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You mention a year since any fixes released - tS7 was released in January this year, and since then we have had 7.1, and then 7.11, so not quite sure where that comes from, as it means 2 updates in 10 months :)
However, while that's pretty good in software, our plan is for it to be better. You mention releasing smaller fixes more often, with easier installations. Already planned, you'll find it mentioned in the proTeam documentation - designs are being put in place in the architecture to allow just that. When UV Mapping gets an improvement, there will be a micro-update just for that, and it won't wait for changes to Point Editing and SDS before being rolled into one large patch. The plan at the moment is this will be a subscription service, ie part of proTeam, and outside of that, there will still be the wait for things to be "rolled up" into a larger patch.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Vizu // Nov 8, 2006, 3:30am
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Hehe.
Tiles you have hit the point.
We need more news.
Maybe some nice renderings from VRay 1.x, with layered materials etc.
A Featurelist would be nice too. |
Post by Steinie // Nov 8, 2006, 3:52am
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I have a suggestion and I'll put in Steinie terms. You have a shed with tools that is locked. You need a shovel so you unlock the shed get the shovel close the door lock the shed. Now you need a rake, ...unlock, open door etc etc. Gets tiring.
TS tools should be one click away. Now picture me in full screen, modeling in 7.11. Everything one click away? Need that LE again don't I.
Make the tabs an Option! Make LE an option. If these are not options why did you make it the default? Are you testing TS at all user levels? Did you actually try to use TS as a user that doesn't need LE? I'm not against LE my only point is let me put things away I don't plan on using BUT don't make me HAVE to use it.
Reading all these threads I can see you'll never please everyone.
The Caligari coffee machine must be working overtime, your reponses are getting longer and more detailed. Good for us and good for you. |
Post by Tiles // Nov 8, 2006, 4:21am
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Tiles
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... When UV Mapping gets an improvement, there will be a micro-update just for that, ...
YEAH! :D
That's what i am talking about. Give us food. But don't aim too much just at new items. Don't forget about the current flaws and bugs. They are as important as new features :)
... 2 updates in 10 months ...
... is ways not enough in my opinion. Not with the current mess. With my software from my little company i have 2 updates per week when necessary and possible. As told, once a bug is catched and repaired, a patch appears within a short time. And no need for Pro membership. AND my mentioned bugs are adressed immediately. That's what i was talking about.
... ie part of proTeam, and outside of that, there will still be the wait for things to be "rolled up" into a larger patch. ...
Ouch! And that hurts it all back. Why just for Pro Team members? Are normal users second class users? Isn't it more that there are ways more normal users than Pro Team users? Isn't the mass paying the company? Isn't the mass the goal where a company should attract and aim to?
I know that this is business. But would you buy a car where you have to be a Pro Member when you want it to be repaired immediately when something is broken? And else to wait some months until more items can be repaired at once?
I really don't get it, sorry. You really make it hard for us normal users. And i have to say it: To treat its customers in this way is bad business in my opinion. Forgive me that i say it this clearly :)
Vizu, not more news. We need the fixes, badly. I cannot shape a mesh with promises. I have to use the currently available tools for that. Else i am a bit in trouble with the causal chain ... ;) |
Post by KeithC // Nov 8, 2006, 4:36am
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Total Posts: 467
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I'm not sure I understand why you need to pay almost $900 to get a needed upgrade/fix (i.e., the UV Mapper) when it's ready to give to users. Why should those that have paid in full for the product have to wait for fixes that were promised?
ProTeam may be a good deal for someone who has never purchased it before; but you're asking people to pay $900 each year to get updates before the rest of the TS7 owners, and maybe a new course (if one is available). That doesn't seem right at all. For that much money, you could almost have enough to buy ZBrush2 and PhotoShop to add to TrueSpace7. This is one of the reasons that TS6.6 won't be upgraded to version 7 on my computer.
-Keith |
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