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tS7, future and some thoughts
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tS7, future and some thoughts // Roundtable
Post by Methusela // Nov 14, 2006, 12:36am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Okay, so apparently my PSU housing is Micro ATX, which I'm assuming is smaller than regular ol' ATX, so regular ol' ATX PSUs won't fit in the housing.
This is the highest wattage PSU on Tiger direct that is Micro ATX:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=2522437&sku=D15-1081
Any suggestions? |
Post by Alien // Nov 14, 2006, 5:04am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Andrew K: Your computer: m1160n has the motherboard called 'salmon-GL6E' (Note that this is the HP name for the exact motherboard name I provided, as evidenced by this site: http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/g...reg_R1002_USEN )
Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention they also had another name for it, though as you know they list both on the HP page.
Andrew K: Micro atx * (Does this mean the abbreviation MATX refers to my housing?)
Yeah, unfortunately. Although you can get ATX cases that will take an MATX [also somtimes written as mATX, or µATX], an MATX case will only take MATX mobos & PSUs.
Chris Gillen: I have been under the fortified impression that there was no maximum wattage limit, as PSUs do not output all of their power at once.
Chris Gillen: But instead, the motherboard draws only the necessary power from the PSU to keep the various hardware components functioning properly.
Chris Gillen: Do the statements of your associate imply that the motherboard is faulty?
Chris Gillen: Or did I completely miss something?
Andrew K: You are correct. Chris, the motherboard draws only the necessary power from the PSU.
Chris Gillen: Meaning that there is really no negative impact from having a high wattage PSU provided the motherboard functions correctly, yes?
Andrew K: Yes. You are right.
OMG! Someone at HP Tech Support actually knows what they're talking about! :rolleyes:
Chris Gillen: Does this mean I can purchase a 460w PSU and have it work just fine?
Andrew K: Yes Chris.
Chris Gillen: D'you have any idea why the tech support individual with whom I last chatted would say that the max wattage is 350?
Because, sadly, there are a lot of people working in tech support who are clueless about the very field they're supposed to know about. If I had to guess, I'd say the other guys you were talking to were just reading from a script &/or making assumptions based on what info they had infront of them, & this guy actually knew what he was talking about.
It's not just in the computer industry - the other week some idiot from NTL [big cable TV/phone/internet provider] told my step-father that their digital STBs didn't provide stereo output from any of the connections! [it's true that they don't via the RF output, but they do via the SCART (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART) output - some of the newer 1s even have an optical digital audio output.]
It would seem that I got my way simply by acting like I knew what I was talking about. I knew absolutely nothing about PSUs prior to this thread. XD
I think it says a lot about a company when someone can learn more from a few posts in a thread on a forum than what [some of] the company's own tech support people know. :(
I'm still pretty naive when it comes to hardware as well, hence:
Patience you must have, young padawan. Knowledge in time you will gain. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/yoda.gif
If I could afford Alienware, I'd totally go for it. ;_;
*cough* now owned by Dell...
Okay, so apparently my PSU housing is Micro ATX, which I'm assuming is smaller than regular ol' ATX, so regular ol' ATX PSUs won't fit in the housing.
Yep, unfortunately that's true.
This is the highest wattage PSU on Tiger direct that is Micro ATX:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=2522437&sku=D15-1081
See what I said about wattage earlier in the thread - whilst it [i]can be indicative of what a PSU is capable of, it's more about the Amps, especially on the 12v. From what I've heard [no direct experience with either], Diablo are worse than Coolmax, also that specific Diablo PSU [according to the specs for both PSUs listed on the tigerdirect site] actually provides 1A less than the already low 16A on the 12V line that the Coolmax does!
Any suggestions?
Actually, yes. Get a proper ATX case, then you won't be restricted to an MATX PSU. Whilst cheap PSUs are to be avoided, it's much easier to determine whether a case is any good, or at least "good enough". If you manage to find a 2nd-hand 1, cool, otherwise, the cheapest 1 I'd recommend on that site is this 1 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1698789&Sku=TC3J-4040), for $16.99. They do do a $9.99 1 [well, it's $9.99 after rebate], however that 1 is listed as having only 2 80mm fan ports, & the pictures show 2 at the back. If their info is correct, then that means there's no fan at the front. Ideally you want fans at the front & back. Also, the 1 I linked apparently has 2 120mm fan mounts . Now, given that it's only a mid-tower [IOW, medium size], & looks to be towards the smaller end of the mid-tower category, I think it's safe to say that there's no way they'd fit 2 120mm fan mounts at the back, which means the other must be at the front, which is better than having fans only at the back.
Admittedly it doesn't come with the fans, but you can just slap a couple of cheapo 1s in there & if necessary get better 1s at a later date. Hmm... usually sleeve bearing fans are cheaper than ball bearing 1s [because they have about 1/2 the lifespan], but the cheapest 1 they do (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=997093&CatId=0) [b]is a ball bearing 1 anyway. Another idea, which may work out cheaper, is if you know anyone else who might want some 120mm fans, is to get this 5-pack (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1456373&CatId=0) of fans, & then sell the 3 you don't need. |
Post by Methusela // Nov 14, 2006, 6:10am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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It's not just in the computer industry - the other week some idiot from NTL [big cable TV/phone/internet provider] told my step-father that their digital STBs didn't provide stereo output from any of the connections! [it's true that they don't via the RF output, but they do via the SCART output - some of the newer 1s even have an optical digital audio output.]
All I know of NTL: is that they used to sponsor Newcastle United and Glasgow Rangers. XD
*cough* now owned by Dell...
NOOOOOOO!!! What have I to aspire to now?! Crap, just as I was beginning to slobber all over those ALXs.
Hmm.
I'd rather not go through all the trouble of a new case and everything. I have very limited knowledge of the inner workings of this here magic computerbox. Forgive my n00b question, but would it be in any way possible to simply leave the PSU on the outside of the casing?
And if housing were no object, what is the best PSU (Also factoring in value) that you would recommend? |
Post by Alien // Nov 14, 2006, 6:22am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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All I know of NTL: is that they used to sponsor Newcastle United and Glasgow Rangers. XD
I wouldn't know about that, I'm not really into sports, & I can't stand football [or soccer as you call it over there].
NOOOOOOO!!! What have I to aspire to now?! Crap, just as I was beginning to slobber all over those ALXs.
Well, there is VoodooPC... oh, wait, now owned by HP! :D
Seriously, you're much better off learning to build your own. With ready-made systems you have a very limited choice of what components go into your machine, both when purchasing it, & as you've discovered with your current 1, afterwards.
Hmm.
I'd rather not go through all the trouble of a new case and everything. I have very limited knowledge of the inner workings of this here magic computerbox. Forgive my n00b question, but would it be in any way possible to simply leave the PSU on the outside of the casing?
Not really, no. I've seen it done, but I'd recommend against it. You'd have to figure out how to attach it to the case, which would most likely involve voiding the PSU's warranty, & then there's the issue of whether the various leads would still be long enough.
And if housing were no object, what is the best PSU (Also factoring in value) that you would recommend?
You mean if you got an ATX case as I suggested? ;) Depends on what you mean by best, do you mean best best [as in money no object], or best at similar prices to the 1s we've been discussing? If the latter, I'd say still the Enermax 460w. Unless you're considering getting something even more powerful to give you more capacity for future upgrades?
Don't worry, inner workings of a PC aren't that mysterious, & there's always me to lend helpful adivce. :) |
Post by daybe // Nov 14, 2006, 6:23am
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daybe
Total Posts: 562
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This thread sort of got off topic, but anyway;)
If it were me I too would get a new case, it may even come with a power supply in it if you get it from a local computer store. Currently I have the same CPU as you and have a 450W PSU with a ATI X700 vid card and a couple of hard drives and have no problems at all.
Not sure what your level of computer knowledge is though, replacing a power supply is quite straight forward, removing some screws and disconnecting the harness from the motherboard and all the connectors from your components sliding it out and put in the new one.
Replacing the case is a little more complicated, as you basically have to take out all the compoments and reassemble in the new case which could be quite an undertaking if your not familar with it. Be sure to write down where all the wires from the case go on the motherboard and beware of static, touch the metal side of the case to discharge yourself before mucking around.
I might add here doing this will void any warranty you have, but it sounds like this is a non-issue or HP should have sent a replacement. |
Post by Methusela // Nov 14, 2006, 6:32am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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I wouldn't know about that, I'm not really into sports, & I can't stand football (or soccer as you call it over there).
I call it football, I lived in North Yorkshire for seven years. ^^
You mean if you got an ATX case as I suggested? Depends on what you mean by best, do you mean best best [as in money no object], or best at similar prices to the 1s we've been discussing? If the latter, I'd say still the Enermax 460w. Unless you're considering getting something even more powerful to give you more capacity for future upgrades?
Hmm, I think the 460w sounds best. I mean if I ever go for another upgrade (Which I say now, but in a year or two I know I will) it'll probably be a whole new PC. Definitely built from scratch. So for now the 460w will be fine. And I'll bite the bullet and go for the new case too.
If it were me I too would get a new case, it may even come with a power supply in it if you get it from a local computer store. Currently I have the same CPU as you and have a 450W PSU with a ATI X700 vid card and a couple of hard drives and have no problems at all.
Not sure what your level of computer knowledge is though, replacing a power supply is quite straight forward, removing some screws and disconnecting the harness from the motherboard and all the connectors from your components sliding it out and put in the new one.
Replacing the case is a little more complicated, as you basically have to take out all the compoments and reassemble in the new case which could be quite an undertaking if your not familar with it. Be sure to write down where all the wires from the case go on the motherboard and beware of static, touch the metal side of the case to discharge yourself before mucking around.
My roommate claims to be knowledgable in the ways of the computer hardware realm, I shall inquire as to his understanding of all this as soon as he wakes up. XD
I might add here doing this will void any warranty you have, but it sounds like this is a non-issue or HP should have sent a replacement.
I'd tell them what they can do with their warranty, but I'd probably get in a lot of trouble. They might even hit the self destruct button that they doubtless hide in their computers!
This thread sort of got off topic, but anyway ;)
I'll put it back on topic once this is sorted, I promise. ^^ |
Post by Alien // Nov 14, 2006, 7:10am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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If it were me I too would get a new case, it may even come with a power supply in it if you get it from a local computer store.
Plenty of online places supply cases with PSU's included, or as I like to call them "doorstops". Seriously, go to any forum that specialises in hardware advice & ask whether it's ok to use a PSU that comes with a case, or whether it's better to get a seperate name-brand 1, & I guarantee the majority will tell you to buy a seperate name-brand PSU.
Currently I have the same CPU as you and have a 450W PSU with a ATI X700 vid card and a couple of hard drives and have no problems at all.
yeah, but in fairness you're probably not really pushing the PSU anywhere close to its limit with that setup.
Replacing the case is a little more complicated, as you basically have to take out all the compoments and reassemble in the new case which could be quite an undertaking if your not familar with it. Be sure to write down where all the wires from the case go on the motherboard and beware of static, touch the metal side of the case to discharge yourself before mucking around.
The 1 you want to remember, not because it's that serious, just because it'll drive you nuts if you get it wrong & can't figure out what you've done, is the FDD's data cable. if you go to boot your system up & the FDD light is permanently on, you've put the FDD cable on the wrong way round. If you're lucky the cable's keyed at both ends, so you can't actually put it on the wrong way round, but a lot of FDD cables aren't keyed, so just something to remember. For the record, even people who've done plenty of computer [re]builds can & do make this mistake if they're in a hurry, tired, distracted, etc [yes, even me :o].
Hmm, I think the 460w sounds best. I mean if I ever go for another upgrade (Which I say now, but in a year or two I know I will) it'll probably be a whole new PC. Definitely built from scratch. So for now the 460w will be fine. And I'll bite the bullet and go for the new case too.
The good thing about that Enermax is that it has a 20+4 motherboard connector. Newer mobos have a 24 pin connector, & some PSUs only have a 24 pin connector. With 1 of those you'd have to try & find some sort of adapter to use it with your mobo . This way, you just leave the 4 pin bit disconnected, but it's there for if you get a motherboard in the future that needs 1.
I just noticed something whilst looking at that Enermax again - shouldn't be a problem, but just in case... take the side of your case off & check to see if there's a 4 pin [in a square, 2x2 arrangement] connector already in use, with a lead from the PSU connected to it. It's commonly reffered to as a P4 connector. a lot of older PSUs had them, & quite a few mobos, both Intel & AMD-based used it, though it's not essential on all mobos that have 1. The reason I mention this is the Enermax doesn't have a P4 connector. If your mobo doesn't have 1, or it does but it's not in use then there's no problem. Otherwise, we may have to see if we can find you a 4pin molex [drive connector] to P4 connector adapter.
1 other thing on the subject of mobos & PSUs, only connect same leads it already has connected, if you see what I mean. For example, some mobos have extra power connectors which are needed because of things like CPUs which are more power hungry than older CPUs, but some mobos have 2 [or more] different types of power connectors, you should match type for type when connecting the new PSU. If the mobo has any power connectors unused, then unless the manual actually says it's ok to use them if you have them on your PSU then you should leave them unused. As an example, 1 mobo I was looking at a while ago had the main 24 pin power connector, but also had seperate 8 pin connector [or was it 6? you'd be surprised at the variations you can get], as well as a HDD-type power connector, & the manual stated that you should only use 1 or the other of the latter 2, not both.
My roommate claims to be knowledgable in the ways of the computer hardware realm, I shall inquire as to his understanding of all this as soon as he wakes up. XD
The standard trick is to touch the case when it's still plugged in [assuming it's connected to an earthed socket, which it should be], but turned off - & by off I mean by the switch on the back of the PSU as well. If you aren't replacing the PSU [I mean in general here, not for this specific task you have ahead] then you can leave the PSU plugged in [but turned off], & touch the case every now & then. In the case of replacing a PSU, where you're going to have to unplug it anyway, ideally you should have an anti-static bracelet thing, connected to a special plug [doesn't have a fuse in it, just a 1MΩ resistor], but failing that, just earth yourself on the case before-hand, & then try to avoid shuffling about on the carpet or touching a CRT screen. :)
Just FYI, whilst pretty much all components [i]could get fried by a static discharge from you, the most sensitive tends to be memory, so if you can avoid touching it, it's best to do so [unless you get 1 of those anti-static bracelets].
]I'd tell them what they can do with their warranty, but I'd probably get in a lot of trouble. They might even hit the self destruct button that they doubtless hide in their computers!
LOL. Did you pay for an extended warranty then? If not it most likely only had 1 year, & you said you'd had it for 2.
I'll put it back on topic once this is sorted, I promise. ^^
Nooooooo! :D |
Post by Alien // Nov 14, 2006, 9:37am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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1 more note on that Enermax PSU. To my surprise it only has 3 of the 4pin drive [HDD/CD/DVD power] connectors. I think the reason I didn't notice before now is just that I'm used to seeing PSUs with 6 or more drive connectors. As you've got 1 IDE HDD [SATA HDDs use a different power connector], & 2 optical drives, that means you wouldn't have any spare connectors for your fans. If you go with that 1st fan I suggested, they do come with a lead that has an extra connector on them, so you don't lose a connector when connecting a fan, but incase you decide on a different fan [not all fans have an extra power connector], or incase your new graphics card needs a 4 pin power connection, you might want to grab 1 or 2 of these power splitters (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1003989&CatId=462) as well [only $1.99 each].
I think the reason that PSU only has 3 of the 4 pin drive connectors is that it also has connectors for PCIe graphics cards [2x], & SATA HDDs [2x].
I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the US version of my 1 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2240331&CatId=0) might not have been a better recommendation, although it is another $5 more than the Enermax. With regard to what I said about some people having had problems with Ultra PSUs, I did a bit more reading, & it seems like it may just have been their earlier 1s. All I can tell you is mine's been rock-solid stable, & I've had it for about a year & a half now. Also, due to the modular design & the fact that tigerdirect does an upgrade cable kit for it, you'd have a wider range of connection possibilities. There's also the fact that some people [including that guy from PC Power & Cooling, as he mentioned it in that article] don't approve of modular cabled PSUs. I can see the logic in their arguments against them, but as I said, I've not had an probs. Well, 1 minor 1, but that was just a compatability issue with my case & wouldn't apply to that case I suggested, or any other that has the HDD cage pointing towards the back of the case - my HDD cage is mounted sideways.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif |
Post by Methusela // Nov 15, 2006, 11:47am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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I am still worried that buying a new case will be difficult, as my computer is a media centre PC and has various extra video inputs and such all over it. Will that be a problem?
Also, this seems to be the best Micro ATX one that I've seen so far I think...
http://www.directron.com/ps320ma.html
Also, here are one or two pictures of the inside of my compy:
The first is the whole thing, the second is my current PSU, and the last is the view from the back of where the PSU is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/Full1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/PSU.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/Rear1.jpg |
Post by Alien // Nov 15, 2006, 4:00pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I am still worried that buying a new case will be difficult, as my computer is a media centre PC and has various extra video inputs and such all over it. Will that be a problem?
I doubt it - it might be more of a problem if you lived over here, as then you'd most likely have 1 or more SCART sockets, which might be problematic to relocate. Show me both an inside & outside view of the connections in question & I'll see if anything looks like it might cause you probs.
Also, this seems to be the best Micro ATX one that I've seen so far I think...
http://www.directron.com/ps320ma.html
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/no.gif Look at the specs again & tell me what you missed the 1st time. ;)
Also, here are one or two pictures of the inside of my compy:
The first is the whole thing,
Daaayaaaamn, that thing's cramped! Could do with a bit of a clean, too. Dust acts a thermal insulator. You could buy 1 of those cans of canned air [either online, or a local computer or electronics place, or possibly even an office supplies place], [b]or if you have an foot pump [like for blowing up tires, etc] that has a fitting/attachment with a small nozzle, you can use that [that's what I do]. Be warned, there's probably even more dust in there than there looks like, so if you have asthma or whatever you might wanna tie a t-shirt or something over your nose & mouth, or do it outside. Don't use a vacuum cleaner, they can build up a static charge, & as you know static & computers don't mix. :)
the second is my current PSU,
Yup, a cheapo 1. Bloody HP couldn't even be bothered to tidy that rats-nest of cables up, would it have really hurt their profit margin to use a few cable ties? :rolleyes:
and the last is the view from the back of where the PSU is.
You know, that PSU doesn't look that much smaller than a standard ATX. I could be wrong, but you really should slide it out & measure it - you don't need to take it completely out, or disconnect the cables [except the mains 1] just be careful not to pull on them. Just undo those 4 screws on the back of the PSU - the 1s that actually stick out from the case, with the hexagonal shaped head.
Enermax don't actually list the dimensions on their site, or even in the datasheet. I'm assuming that's because it meets the standard size for an ATX PSU. I googled it anyway, just incase, & apparently it's W150 x H86 x D140 (mm). I checked that against an old PSU I had lying around, & it's the same size. If yours is too, you should be able to get a normal ATX PSU in there without any problem.
BTW, with that PSU you've got in there now I'm going to have to modify some advice I gave you in a previous post. That PSU doesn't have a switch on the back of it, so unless the wall socket at the other end of the mains cable has a switch to turn it off, you're going to have to unplug the mains lead from the PSU when you take anything out of your system or upgrade it. The reason being that unless a PSU is turned off either by a switch on the actual PSU's back panel, or at the wall, then there's still 5v going through your system [standby voltage], even if you actually tell Windows to turn your system off, & connecting or disconnecting any components while that's still on is not a good idea.
On a slighty different note, apparently the Ultra 1 has a 3yr guarantee, & if you register it within 30 days of purchase they'll extend it (http://www.ultraproducts.com/register.php). Ah, just had a thought - I looked at your 2nd pic again, & I'm not sure you've got enough room between the PSU & the bottom optical drive for the connector on the leads that come with the Ultra.
Ok, I just dug out 1 of my spare/unused Ultra leads, & plugged it in the back of an old optical drive. To fit in your HP case, you'd need at least 47mm clearance between PSU & that longer optical drive. Also, it would seem that the Ultra is 6mm wider than a standard PSU. In a standard ATX case that probably wouldn't matter, in yours... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif Still, tigerdirect do that 30 day satisfaction guarantee, so if it didn't fit you could always send it back.
<30 seconds later>
Damn, I knew I forgot something - the ATX motherboard power lead on the Ultra - there's no way the plug on the end that goes into the PSU would fit between the PSU & your longest optical drive [not unless the gap between PSU & longer optical drive is larger that it looks - you'd need at least 75mm]. Oh well. Still, if you decided to get a new case as well then that wouldn't be an issue, but it's up to you dude - I'm just providing the info. :) |
Post by Steinie // Nov 16, 2006, 1:56am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Anyone following this thread before it was hijacked can continue here:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1629
Did you guys wonder why the title is TS7 future and some thoughts?:rolleyes:
I could start my own sub thread "TS and Peach Pie recipes".... |
Post by Methusela // Nov 16, 2006, 2:32am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Anyone following this thread before it was hijacked can continue here:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1629
Did you guys wonder why the title is TS7 future and some thoughts?:rolleyes:
I could start my own sub thread "TS and Peach Pie recipes"....
Sorry everybody. >_<
I didn't mean to get this carried away and I didn't know that this was as complicated as it is. I'll start my own thread now if it isn't too late... |
Post by parva // Nov 16, 2006, 3:03am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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I could start my own sub thread "TS and Peach Pie recipes"....
Sounds delicious Steinie :)
btw. future trueSpace should get a food shader. Haven't seen realisitc food in 3D so far ^^ |
Post by Alien // Nov 18, 2006, 9:04am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Anyone following this thread before it was hijacked can continue here:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1629
Did you guys wonder why the title is TS7 future and some thoughts?:rolleyes:
Sorry, I can get a bit carried away on some subjects without realising it. :o |
Post by Steinie // Nov 18, 2006, 9:09am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Alien you owe us a Peach Pie Recipe!;)
Methusela, thats ok I've caught myself doing this too! Just ask Splinters...:o
I see you started a new thread so I hope you get your problems solved.
Steinie |
Post by Alien // Nov 18, 2006, 9:16am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Alien you owe us a Peach Pie Recipe!;)
My knowledge of cookery tends to be limited to what I can heat up with my micro or my George Forman grill thingy, & I never was too keen on peaches, but there's a few here:
http://southernfood.about.com/od/peachpies/
:)
I probably could have tried to fake knowledge of peach pies preparation, but sooner or later someone would have realised I was talking cobblers. ;) |
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