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PSU rubbish (Really sorry for thread-jacking >_<)
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PSU rubbish (Really sorry for thread-jacking >_<) // Roundtable
Post by Methusela // Nov 17, 2006, 6:30pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Okay, so I measured my PSU, and my all sorts of uninformed oppinion, those bastards lied to me again. My case measurements are as follows: 138mm (140mm maybe?), 150mm wide, and 83mm tall. Seems to match ATX specifications unless I am much mistaken.
My reference is this .PDF on page 33 where it shows a diagram of ATX dimensions:
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf |
Post by Methusela // Nov 18, 2006, 1:46am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Also there's no way that there's 75mm clearance there. XD I'm lucky if there's 35 mm. |
Post by Alien // Nov 18, 2006, 8:47am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Okay, so I measured my PSU, and my all sorts of uninformed oppinion, those bastards lied to me again. My case measurements are as follows: 138mm (140mm maybe?), 150mm wide, and 83mm tall. Seems to match ATX specifications unless I am much mistaken.
My reference is this .PDF on page 33 where it shows a diagram of ATX dimensions:
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
Yeah, your measurements do sound pretty close to the ATX reference size [140 x 150 x 86], within an acceptable [to me at least] margin of errror. :)
Also there's no way that there's 75mm clearance there. XD I'm lucky if there's 35 mm.
There's no way you'd get the Ultra in there then. Shame, it's a nice PSU. You gonna go with the Enermax & get a couple of splitter leads just in case, or get a new case, or what? If you're still unsure about how easy it'll be to transfer your AV connections, post pics of them & how they're mounted. BTW, what's the black thing near the [pink] parallel port? The pic's a bit blurry, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was 1 of those socket covers designed to keep dust out. Actually, I just looked again, & it looks more like the actual socket [or whatever] is black, which is unusual. :confused: |
Post by Methusela // Nov 18, 2006, 2:17pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Yeah, I'm gonna go with the enermax 460watt one. It is a shame, really, the Ultra looked really cool. XD But the enermax should be all I need.
I also decided to go with the EVGA 7800 now that I know that I can actually use it in my bloody machine.
This'n:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1831179&CatId=0
And the Enermax. If it doesn't fit, I'll order a new case seperately. I'll also get a few splitter leads I think. I'm not entirely sure how many are in here because of all the mess in there, but I'll figure it out.
Thanks for all your help! |
Post by Alien // Nov 18, 2006, 4:04pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Yeah, I'm gonna go with the enermax 460watt one. It is a shame, really, the Ultra looked really cool. XD But the enermax should be all I need.
Should be. :)
I also decided to go with the EVGA 7800 now that I know that I can actually use it in my bloody machine.
This'n:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1831179&CatId=0
Hmm... can you take another pic like the 1st 1 in the other thread, but from a bit lower down, looking upwards. The reason I ask is that the distance from the end of the AGP connector on that 7800 to the end of the card is roughly the same as the length of the AGP connector. Look at you system, & see where an extra AGP-connector's-length would be. From the angle that 1st pic was taken, it's kinda hard to tell whether that thing that I'm assuming is your card-reader would be in the way or not.
I'll also get a few splitter leads I think. I'm not entirely sure how many are in here because of all the mess in there, but I'll figure it out.
Pick up some electrical tape while you're at it. It's not the nicest-looking way to make cables tidy, but it keeps the wires from each connector from splaying out, so keeps things tidier. Alternatively you could get some zip ties [not sure if you call them the same thing over there]:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/zipties.jpg
Just remember to remember to cut the excess off, as it'll get in the way & get caught on things.
If you do go the zip-tie route, see if you can find some of these things:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/ziptieanchor.jpg
Not sure what they're called, but they're about 21mm square, & have a self adhesive sticky pad thing on the back. Stick them to places in your case where you wish you had something to zip-tie the cables to, & hey presto - you will have. :)
when I mentioned tape or zip ties to keep the wires together I meant for the splitter leads, AFAIK the Enermax leads are covered with braided sheathing. Though the zip ties would still be a good idea to keep cables out of the way, air flow will be even more important when you have that 7800 in there, especially as it blows its hot air into the case, rather than out the back as some graphics cards coolers do.
Thanks for all your help!
No problem, glad I could help. :) |
Post by Methusela // Nov 18, 2006, 11:11pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Okay, so these three pictures are both assuring and annoying. There seems to be plenty of room for the 7800 to fit...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/AGP.jpg
(And off to the other side as well there doesn't seem to be anything in the way)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/Clearance.jpg
...but it also looks like it's going in upside down.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Methusela/VideoCardBottom.jpg
Unless that product page flipped the picture...
http://images.tigerdirect.com/itemDetails/E145-7820/E145-7820-out3-hl.jpg
...which I don't think it did. I'm pretty sure the heat will be blowing straight onto my sound card, rather than into the case.
Will this be a problem in any way?
Also I think I'll go the electrical tape route, I'm awfully clumsy with my hands (I play football, remember. XD) for the ties. |
Post by Alien // Nov 19, 2006, 2:37am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Okay, so these three pictures are both assuring and annoying. There seems to be plenty of room for the 7800 to fit...
(And off to the other side as well there doesn't seem to be anything in the way)
Ah, that was what I was looking for. Yeah, should be ok.
...but it also looks like it's going in upside down.
As all cards do. :(
Unless that product page flipped the picture...
http://images.tigerdirect.com/itemDetails/E145-7820/E145-7820-out3-hl.jpg
...which I don't think it did.
No, they just showed a pic of the more interesting [to look at] side. The cooler faces downward when installed in a tower - just like your 5200.
I'm pretty sure the heat will be blowing straight onto my sound card, rather than into the case.
Will this be a problem in any way?
No, because it draws air in through that round opening, & it gets blown out to the right, through the fins of the heatsink & into the case. :)
BTW, if you haven't already got it, you should get SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php), so you can see what your CPU & system [measured by a temp probe somewhere on your mobo] temps are. Ideally your system temp shouldn't really be above 35°C, as the warmer your system air is, the warmer everything else will be. |
Post by Methusela // Nov 19, 2006, 3:05am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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As all cards do.
Ah, did not know that. I've only owned two computers in my life and this is the first one I've ever tinkered with.
No, because it draws air in through that round opening, & it gets blown out to the right, through the fins of the heatsink & into the case.
Also didn't know that. :D
BTW, if you haven't already got it, you should get SpeedFan, so you can see what your CPU & system [measured by a temp probe somewhere on your mobo] temps are. Ideally your system temp shouldn't really be above 35°C, as the warmer your system air is, the warmer everything else will be.
Well, at the moment the reading are as follows:
HDO: 43C
Temp1: 40C
Core: 39C
So I guess getting a new, not POS PSU should fix that?
Thanks so much for your help on all of this, I'd definitely be in a very crappy position if I didn't have your expert guidance. I'll be sure to report back once the new stuff arrives and I (By which I mean my roommate :D) get it installed.
Thanks again! |
Post by Alien // Nov 19, 2006, 7:00am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Well, at the moment the reading are as follows:
HDO: 43C
Temp1: 40C
Core: 39C
Yikes, that HDD's running hot, what is it, an IBM? My WD [Western Digital] is only at 28°C, though that could partially be because my front intake fan blows through the HDD cage. Don't know what temp my Samsung's at, as it's an SATA drive, & the only way I could make it bootable with my motherboard was to enable the SATA RAID option in the BIOS [having SATA enabled but without the RAID option on let me access it, but not boot from it, even though it's just the 1 drive & not a RAID array], unfortunately SpeedFan doesn't seem to be able to read my Samsung's temp when the RAID option in the BIOS is enabled. Weird. :confused:
It's possible the other 2 temps could be labelled wrong on yours [you can rename them], do something to stress your CPU for a min or 2, & whichever is the highest temp of the 2 is your CPU. CPU usually is the highest temp in your system, but SpeedFan also usually recognises the HDD properly [when it detects it at all! :rolleyes:].
So I guess getting a new, not POS PSU should fix that?
Well, it might improve things. Especially if your PSU doesn't have a fan on the bottom, as the Enermax is a dual fan PSU [has 1 on the back & 1 on the bottom facing the CPU - yes the pic on the site is of it the wrong way up also :)]
Is there a place to mount a fan in the front of the case, that doesn't have a fan mounted there? If so, it would be a good idea to get 1. In a case that size, if it has 1, I reckon it'll probably be a mount for an 80mm. Fans come in fixed sizes, so just measure the mounting point roughly, don't have to get it exact. PC case fans tend to be 80, 92, or 120mm. It could also be 60mm, but those are rare [at least as case fans, common as CPU fans].
Another problem with fans & airflow is that for some stupid reason some case manufacturers [especially makers of el-cheapo cases] often make the fan mounting point... well, stupid. The whole point of having a fan mounted there is to allow the fan to draw air in [or blow it out if it's a rear fan mount]. I mean, seriously, how the hell are you supposed to get decent air flow through something like this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/MG-780_frontfanmount.jpg
[from an old case of mine]
Fortunately, some companies are now being a bit more sensible about such things these days. Unfortunately, my current case (http://www.fortrex.com.tw/show_product.php?proSN=133) [black 1] was made by the same company as made the case the above pic was from. Whilst they got a lot of stuff right on this [my current] case, they still managed to get the front fan mount wrong [I modified it to correct their mistake :)]. Bunch of muppets! They did the rear blow-hole perfectly, 1 big hole & a grill (http://www.puresilence.co.uk/catalog/images/images_big/fan-grill-120mm-chrome-guard.jpg) to prevent anything [e.g. fingers] getting caught in it, so I fail to see why they couldn't do the same with the front 1. :mad:
Thanks so much for your help on all of this, I'd definitely be in a very crappy position if I didn't have your expert guidance.
I wouldn't call myself an expert. :o I'm just someone with a keen interest. I prefer to be able to do this stuff myself, rather than put myself at the mercy of the whims of some ready-made computer company. |
Post by Methusela // Nov 20, 2006, 5:09am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Oh, one last thing, are these the right kind of splitter cables?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1003989&CatId=790 |
Post by GraySho // Nov 20, 2006, 6:15am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Right, those are the ones for HD's, disk drives. The old floppy drives had a different size, but AFAIK they are not used that much any more ;) |
Post by Alien // Nov 20, 2006, 7:54am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Oh, one last thing, are these the right kind of splitter cables?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1003989&CatId=790
Yeah, those are the 1s.
Right, those are the ones for HD's, disk drives. The old floppy drives had a different size, but AFAIK they are not used that much any more ;)
That Enermax has 1 floppy power connector, which is all he needs. |
Post by Norm // Nov 20, 2006, 9:41am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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I use probably same enermax model. But here in Canada, they make the manufacturer state a different number for watts. The 460 comes out as 420watts if I remember correctly. The point being that if you are looking for new power supply and you try to get away with the lowest watts you can, you could be in for surprise when things do not work as you hoped. At least when I went to the larger power supply, graphics cards work better and the system is not starving for power. |
Post by Alien // Nov 20, 2006, 10:02am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I use probably same enermax model. But here in Canada, they make the manufacturer state a different number for watts. The 460 comes out as 420watts if I remember correctly.
They currently have a 420w model, though it's a different colour & from a different range of models, but I think they've also done other 420w models in the past, as well as 435w models.
The point being that if you are looking for new power supply and you try to get away with the lowest watts you can, you could be in for surprise when things do not work as you hoped. At least when I went to the larger power supply, graphics cards work better and the system is not starving for power.
It's the amps that are important, especially for the 12v line[s], not watts. That 1 I recommended should be more than adequate for him as long as he doesn't try using it with an SLI-capable motherboard [which he hasn't got], & a pair of hungry Nvidia cards, e.g. 7900s or 8800s.
...or a crossfire board with a pair of high end Radeons, though I don't think Radeons are quite as power-hungry as high end Nvidia cards. As for a more powerful PSU, if he can afford it, then sure, but IIRC he said he's probably going to build a new computer from scratch in a couple of years time, so presumably he'd get a new PSU to match the requirements of whatever system he builds then. |
Post by Methusela // Nov 20, 2006, 5:43pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Yeah, the Power requirements for the 7800 is 350w, so I took Alien's advice and got the 460w so that I'd have some wattage to spare should the card require more at any point. This is the last time I'm going to upgrade this computer, in a few years I'll have some money saved up to build a new one, probably SLI, and if that's the case then I'll probably be going for a 600w+ PSU I think. |
Post by Alien // Nov 20, 2006, 6:05pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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This is the last time I'm going to upgrade this computer, in a few years I'll have some money saved up to build a new one, probably SLI, and if that's the case then I'll probably be going for a 600w+ PSU I think.
In that case, may I suggest that when figuring out how much to save you add a bit extra & make your next PSU a PC Power & Cooling (http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/) [see if you can find any other PSU manufacturer that lets end users buy direct from them!]. They're not cheap [well, not if you live in the US - gotta love the exchange rate! :D although their top of the range 1Kw model (http://www.pcpower.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T1KWSR#) would be expensive even with the exchange rate as it is :(], but they are widely reported to be the best, bar none.
Sadly they don't have some of the "features" that other PSUs have, e.g. modular cables. I understand why they don't, having read that interview with their founder (http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/about/interview.php), but I would have thought that with all their experience & expertise they could find some way to make modular cables without the downsides they mention. :( |
Post by Methusela // Nov 21, 2006, 6:50pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Those look nice! Though, I'm sure that in a few years they'll have something better still. XD
Rest assured, I'll be back for advice. :D |
Post by Alien // Nov 21, 2006, 7:47pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Those look nice! Though, I'm sure that in a few years they'll have something better still. XD
Probably. :)
Rest assured, I'll be back for advice. :D
Cool, glad to help. :) |
Post by Methusela // Nov 30, 2006, 5:40pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Well, I've got great news and terrible news.
Great news is that the card and PSU got here today (The card came with a splitter lead, so I wound up not needing one O_o). I was intimidated by all the wires, but with help from my more hardware-savvy roommate, we got it all hooked up with only one mistake (we connected the wrong four pin connector to the CPU, no harm done thankfully.). I went through and played some of my favourite games with all the settings turned all the way up, and life was good. Then, I went to play Half-Life 2: Episode 1. Now, let me stress that the graphics in this game are PHENOMINAL. Makes Final Fantasy look like a second rate game (graphically). Sadly, this brings me to the terrible news.
I was running the game from my external hard drive, and suddenly, everything froze up and went wonky colours. The entire system was not responding at all. Not even moving the mouse. So I did a hard shutdown, rebooted and now the external hard drive doesn't work. Whenever I turn it on, I get the message that the USB device is malfunctioning and is not recognized by Windows. This is quite a calamity, as I have bajillions (literally :D) of files on there, almost all of which are essential. It's one o'them Western Digital "Extreme" Lighted Combo dealies with the changing light colours, if anyone's seen one of those (I got it 'cos it was the cheapest over 300gb one they had in the store :D). But now it's dead. If anybody has an idea why this might be, I'd be eternally grateful if you could help me out.
But other than that, life's great! And for the first time, I can actually give the "Player" side a spin!
Thanks for all your help everyone who contributed, especially Alien! |
Post by Alien // Dec 3, 2006, 2:24pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Well, I've got great news and terrible news.
Great news is that the card and PSU got here today (The card came with a splitter lead, so I wound up not needing one O_o). I was intimidated by all the wires, but with help from my more hardware-savvy roommate, we got it all hooked up with only one mistake (we connected the wrong four pin connector to the CPU, no harm done thankfully.).
That's not good. :( Did you not read the manual for the PSU 1st? It is possible to sometimes partially damage a motherboard, & leave the rest of it working, which makes me wonder if that could have led to your external HD probs [caused a surge through the USB or something]. I once had a motherboard that had both an ATX connector & an AT connector [the kind used before ATX was introduced], & you had the option to use either. I somehow managed to fry the ATX part of the circuit so I could only run it from an AT PSU [I'd been cleaning some dust off my monitor & TV, then touched the back of my case to earth myself, figuring any charge would go straight to ground - apparently not all of it did :o].
I went through and played some of my favourite games with all the settings turned all the way up, and life was good. Then, I went to play Half-Life 2: Episode 1. Now, let me stress that the graphics in this game are PHENOMINAL. Makes Final Fantasy look like a second rate game (graphically).
Glad you got it working, though can't comment on the games as I'm not much of a gamer & haven't played either of them.
Sadly, this brings me to the terrible news.
I was running the game from my external hard drive, and suddenly, everything froze up and went wonky colours. The entire system was not responding at all. Not even moving the mouse. So I did a hard shutdown, rebooted and now the external hard drive doesn't work. Whenever I turn it on, I get the message that the USB device is malfunctioning and is not recognized by Windows.
Do other USB devices still work on your computer?
Is the HDD still under warranty, & would you feel comfortable sending it in for repair. IOW, have you got anything on there you wouldn't want to get caught with? [e.g. software you don't exactly own the licence to, or pictures of hamsters in compromising positions :p] If not, & if it's still under warranty, get it fixed.
If it's not under warranty [or for whatever reason you don't want to send it to get it fixed ;)], you can try to get the data back. If you're lucky & something is fried, it may only be whatever circuitry that the enclosure includes, the actual drive may be fine. If you're willing to remove the drive from the enclosure [which will almost certainly void it's warranty if it still has 1], you could try connecting it to 1 of the IDE ports on your motherboard, but the safest option would be to get a USB-to-IDE adapter & try it on that [after removing your drive from its enclosure].
This 1 looks ok. (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2201205&Tab=0&NoMapp=0)
This is quite a calamity, as I have bajillions (literally :D) of files on there, almost all of which are essential. It's one o'them Western Digital "Extreme" Lighted Combo dealies with the changing light colours, if anyone's seen one of those (I got it 'cos it was the cheapest over 300gb one they had in the store :D). But now it's dead. If anybody has an idea why this might be, I'd be eternally grateful if you could help me out.
Other than what I mentioned above... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/dunno.gif
But other than that, life's great! And for the first time, I can actually give the "Player" side a spin!
Cool :cool:
Thanks for all your help everyone who contributed, especially Alien!
:o Glad I could help. |
Post by Methusela // Dec 3, 2006, 5:21pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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We did read the manual, it was just pretty vague... It was okay though, the PC didn't even turn on when we had it connected wrong, so no harm done.
All other USB devices work just fine. In fact, the HD was working just fine for a while too. It was only after the game I was running from it crapped out that it gave me problems.
I will probably send it in for repair if the other things I try don't work (May want to hide the fact that the entireties of Family Guy, Futurama, Father Ted, etc. are on it :o ). I'm not sure if it's stull under warranty, but it should be I think. Other things I'm going to try are to re-install it. Only problem there is that my parents threw out the installation CD during our move. e_e So I've been scouring the internet looking for a .iso or something. I'll probably wind up making my parents get me a new one to atone for said CD disposal. XD
The other thing I'll try is it has a firewire port as well, but I left the cord at home. I go home for the holidays on the 20th, so I'll try it out then. I think it is likely that it's the USB part that's wrecked. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe it overheated, but aren't they supposed to guard against that?
Anyway, if those are not the case, I'll probably try to hook it up to my motherboard directly like you said. If that also fails, I'll send it in for repair. :/
Thanks for the advice! |
Post by Alien // Dec 3, 2006, 7:48pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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We did read the manual, it was just pretty vague...
<looks at PDF manual again>
Ah, I see what might have caused confusion. Just as the main motherboard power connector comes as a 20+4 pin configuration, the extra +12V supply for the motherboard comes in a 4+4 pin configuration, so as to cater to both motherboards that just have a 4pin connector, & those with an 8 pin connector. I missed that previously, hence why I said in the past that I didn't think it had the 4 pin "P4" connector.
Looking at page 3, I'm not surprised it didn't start up when you had it connected - though I am surprised your mobo still works!
correct connector pins
1 common/ground
2 common/ground
3 +12v
4 +12v
wrong connector pins
1 +12v
2 +3.3v
3 +5v
4 common/ground
Hmm... thinking about it, it's possible that it might not have caused any damage after all. It's conceivable that the PSU could have detected the 12V line on the wrong connector being connected to what is supposed to be common/ground [as a short] & automatically shut itself off. Then again, that's more speculation, I'm getting a little out of my depth here. :o
It was okay though, the PC didn't even turn on when we had it connected wrong, so no harm done.
Maybe... then again [pure speculation/guesswork here] it could have fried/damaged something responsible for regulating the power going through the USB, which theoretically could might have caused the drive to fail after a while. [like I said, pure speculation]
All other USB devices work just fine. In fact, the HD was working just fine for a while too. It was only after the game I was running from it crapped out that it gave me problems.
I suppose you could just be really unlucky, & it could just be a coincidence.
I will probably send it in for repair if the other things I try don't work (May want to hide the fact that the entireties of Family Guy, Futurama, Father Ted, etc. are on it :o ).
Not sure how you'll manage to hide that if you can't access the drive.
I'm not sure if it's stull under warranty, but it should be I think. Other things I'm going to try are to re-install it. Only problem there is that my parents threw out the installation CD during our move. e_e So I've been scouring the internet looking for a .iso or something. I'll probably wind up making my parents get me a new one to atone for said CD disposal. XD
Since when has a USB mass storage device needed a driver CD for XP??? :confused: Then again, I've read that some external HDD wotsits [e.g. Maxtor] have a "1-button-backup" type thing, which would presumably require extra drivers/software, but I would have thought they'd still work as a normal USB drive without them.
The other thing I'll try is it has a firewire port as well, but I left the cord at home. I go home for the holidays on the 20th, so I'll try it out then. I think it is likely that it's the USB part that's wrecked. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe it overheated, but aren't they supposed to guard against that?
Companies are supposed to design their products against all sorts of things, whether they actually do or not is another matter entirely. For example, IBM was supposed to make their DeskStar 75GXP HDDs last a reasonable length of time... & they ended up with a class-action law suit against them.
I've not really had much direct experience with external HDDs. I can only tell you that my WD [40GB Special Edition] doesn't get that hot, as 1 time before I had it in my system I used it with 1 of those USB to IDE adapters that my friend had brought over. Then again, being inside an enclosure as yours is may make a big difference, especially if they didn't take extended use into account in the design [e.g. if it was only intended for occasional use with enough time in between to cool down].
Anyway, if those are not the case, I'll probably try to hook it up to my motherboard directly like you said. If that also fails, I'll send it in for repair. :/
You may want to reconsider the order you do that in. Whilst I could be wrong, I'm fairly certain that if it came with the HDD already in it like yours did, then taking said drive out would void the warranty. |
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