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TrueSpace 7.5 UI
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
TrueSpace 7.5 UI // Roundtable
Post by whirabomber // Jan 20, 2007, 11:55pm
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whirabomber
Total Posts: 11
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I have a copy of 3.0 sitting here on my lap. I did some modelling in and had a good time with it. I even have two disks of "true clips" that I can't recall what they are (model libraries, art, etc, but I am guessing.) A few disk over is my copy of TS 5.1. I remember doing some modelling, having a good time, but was slightly disturbed by the changing interface. TS 6.x seemed almost like TS 5.1 but with a less confusing video driver setup, and it intergrated a few plugins I used to use on 5.1. I downloaded 7.x (bought the electronic version) and out of the box it was a pooch soup sandwich. No new bone tool, the UI was all screwed up (player mode? player mode by default?), and more than a few icons were not only somewhere else but had new pictures. So before you sit back and try to tell me "read the manual, click and see what happens, blah blah blah" look at things from the point of view I have had TS since 3.0 and was able to roll with the updates - until 7.x.
To get a realistic mind set, take your copy of windows XP and change the language to.. say.. Chinese and have a friend change all of the pictures to something else and have another friend re-arrange your programs in the "programs" window and have a third friend re-arrange all of your icons and have a fourth friend make your backgorund a web page on knitting. Have the same folks tell you to learn chinese, say you should have read the manual, and pretend that they love the new menu the way it is. To top it all of you find out that the reason you upgarde to XP was a cool new game that at the last minute was changed to only run on windows 95.
TS 7.0 shipped with a totally different UI, a new mode "player" (that is the first thing someone sees so naturally a WTF is generated by said person), a manual just as bad as 5.x+'s was, no new bone tool, and a viciously re-arranged layout saddled with an even more viciously set of view tabs (why didn't my adjusted layout persist when I switch from default to 4-view and back to default). Here we are, a year later, 2 patchs later, and no new animation tools - which is quite honestly the reason I upgraded to TS7.0.
I have another comparison for TS and Windows for you. I've had windows since 3.1 and aside from a few adjustments to where things were and updates to support new hardware I have yet to sit down and not be able to make Windows work the way I need it to (sans ME - yuk!). And by golly I've never had to read the Windows manual. TS was that way until 7.x.
It isn't my fault Caligari changed the UI so don't tell me "well you should" when Caligari really shouldn't have. |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2007, 1:16am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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It isn't my fault Caligari changed the UI so don't tell me "well you should" when Caligari really shouldn't have.
Whirlabomb, my question started with.."I am curious what attracted you to trueSpace 7...", I did not ask you to defend your decision and, frankly, you gave even more reasons why you do not like trueSpace 7.
So, I am still curious-why did you buy a program that was so radically different from earlier versions and why on earth did you not refund it within 30 days? You really do not seem happy with it.
And, no, it is not your fault Caligari changes the UI but it is mine to some extent....;)
But as I said, this is not personal...I am just curious. And I really like the 7.11 UI and 7.5 for that matter...:) Wouldn't do for us all to be the same...:D |
Post by Bobbins // Jan 21, 2007, 6:45am
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Total Posts: 506
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Hmm, bad analogies there whirlabomber. Windows 3.1 to Win 95 was a very major GUI change.
The fact is that the tS 6.x and prior architecture had come to the end of it's useful life. It was designed years ago so was not suitable to current and future hardware directions and also was no longer able to give users the features they were asking for. The solution was to start again with an architecture that could deliver not only today but in 5, 10 and maybe 15 years time. that meant a complete re-write and the opportunity to improve and start again. Of course, some old time users would be unable to see the necessity and make the change, but that doesn't mean it was any less required. Caligari not only should have but in fact had to. |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2007, 9:05am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Hmm, bad analogies there whirlabomber. Windows 3.1 to Win 95 was a very major GUI change.
The fact is that the tS 6.x and prior architecture had come to the end of it's useful life. It was designed years ago so was not suitable to current and future hardware directions and also was no longer able to give users the features they were asking for. The solution was to start again with an architecture that could deliver not only today but in 5, 10 and maybe 15 years time. that meant a complete re-write and the opportunity to improve and start again. Of course, some old time users would be unable to see the necessity and make the change, but that doesn't mean it was any less required. Caligari not only should have but in fact had to.
Well said, add to this the fact that Caligari did a lot of work on the bridge to ensure that older users of tS (like myself) can still use tS7 with their existing files. |
Post by Freaky42 // Jan 31, 2007, 7:38pm
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Freaky42
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Hey been a long time since i posted anything. My reason simply being I have no idea how to get pretty much anything to run the way I want it to on TS7.11. I can't find things even tools I just saw maybe 15 seconds before, in anything that could be called a timely manner. When I do actually try to use a tool the result I acheive is almost always not what I expected to occur. I'm not complaining about TS here I just wanted to ask something and that's why this is here in the TS 7.5 UI thread.
For those that have been following this and understanding it more than myself I just want to know: Will 7.5 be a complete and more or less concrete version of TS? Specifically will this Version be much closer or infact a Truely stand alone version of the New direction TS is heading in? From what I could see I can understand TS 6.x and it's tools but have not used them to make much because of the move to TS 7 and it's change into using the "Player". I don't want to try to learn the systems of V.6.x if they only apply in theory to the new version. I want to learn 7 but again if there are major changes that are in 7.5 coming I don't think I can expend effort to learn the nuiances and workarounds for the current if the newer one is going to address or fix or simply replace what I'm going to learn.
This has already turned into too long a post. I can't exactly explain but I can't seem to understand the massive amount of symbols and doodads that appear only when you click in the right place and when they do they usually appear directly over the object to obscure my view. All the tools for a task that are actually docked require moving between views to bring them out unless I want to go through one at a time to dock them myself or create views to have them in.
I am just kind of hoping for a simplification of the entire UI. All the tools the coding the amazing power can be there... but I wouldn't need each line of code on screen to use them just like I don't need 110+ little icons that could be put in on flyout or menu or some kind of central location so I can tell where tools of a type are at. Like animation can contain all IK,Skinning,Keyframing...animation tools, so I know where they are and how to access them. As a Heirarchy. Not a scattered, cpu intensive version the the board game Memory where i try to remember if the button for normalizing my normals is the blue cheese button or the one that looks like Richard Nixon.
Anyway I just want to know in any words if there is going to be some kind of unified direction for this UI. Handing it to me and telling me I can make whatever UI I want is not going to work "for me" because I honestly don't care as long as I can find and Use the tools. I know this is kind of onesided but this right as a consumer to complain for my own ends. :p
If you actually read this post thank you and I hope I have not offended with my concerns.
Thank you. :) |
Post by kena // Jan 31, 2007, 8:46pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I share your frustration with TS7.11. It is a very large difference from 6.6
I think the learning curve is just wider. If anyone out there knows anything about 7.5, please let us know wht to expect. Thanks! |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 31, 2007, 9:08pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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There is a certain amount of Geekiness associated with tS products.
I have not seen the interface as I don't like purchasing betas (personal preference.)
I noticed one section displayed on the forum that looks like Poser's Material Lab. With all sorts of plug-ins and wire diagrams. That is my least favorite part of Poser.
There's an old expression, "Right way, Wrong Way and My way." In this case it appears that the UI is Roman's way. Roman is a very good innovator but tends to like things including interfaces a bit on the geeky side.
Hey if it works for the geek types, then go for it. But it probably won't sell many copies.
Anyway, I'm just pontificating and as I found my word doesn't matter much in tS matters or this forum. :) |
Post by nowherebrain // Jan 31, 2007, 9:46pm
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Total Posts: 1062
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@jamesmc
I think you are right, about it being "Romans way". I am also not sure that that is necessarily a bad thing.
The interface is kinda the "Nintendo" of the 3D world (AKA, for dyslexic people, and old farts like splinters and I), but I am a "Nintendork". I like the icons in 7, the ones that are orange/black mimicking the tS6 interface..too bad they disapear all the time. When I first got the release ver. of 7 the first thing I did was ditch the new "GIANT" icons and config. a more streamlined tool bar collection. Using a tS6 style, big mistake...they always seem to go away.
Truth is I complain about things every so often, but in the end, I'll always be a tS user. I own Lightwave, MAX, SILO, and Modo. Wierd thing is I'm always modeling between one of these and tS. Somtimes I start in tS and end up in Modo, then, back to tS...every time...The only exception is I do my UV's in Blender, muuuuch better at slicing and unwrapping, but crappy front end[interface(this is changin' though)]. |
Post by stan // Feb 4, 2007, 12:59pm
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stan
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I'm one person who hopes there will be a way to have a lighter look.. when I think of pro apps I think of visual studio, not poser...the new colour scheme may suit many, but not all..I always liked the bright icons, that's one of the things that sold me on truespace..
why don't they just let it work with windows colour schemes, then you could choose what you like.
I sure hope you read this Roman..you had promised me a better icon visibility option on the next release not worse..
Gord :cool: |
Post by GraySho // Feb 4, 2007, 1:03pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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I'm one person who hopes there will be a way to have a lighter look.. when I think of pro apps I think of visual studio, not poser...the new colour scheme may suit many, but not all..I always liked the bright icons, that's one of the things that sold me on truespace..
why don't they just let it work with windows colour schemes, then you could choose what you like.
Customization is the key to make everyone happy (hint) ;) |
Post by prodigy // Feb 5, 2007, 10:30am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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I can only say, im very concern about how we gonna move over the player side.. for example i love the way to use the mouse over the model side.. with the double clicks to looks the selected object.. and other features..
I learn to move with truespace to this way, and thats for me the hard part of move to the player side..
I love to see the player side working like the model side.. with the easy way to change to wireframe to solid.. and transparent... thats very very easy to handle..
I love the idea to put all this thing in a few buttons not on a slide..
Less mouse moves = fastest works :D
Somebody know a release date to the ts7.5?? TomG?? any news??? |
Post by Steinie // Feb 5, 2007, 10:43am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Stan,
Not sure what Beta build was in the Hair Demo Movie but the Icons looked very bright.
When do you call a horse a horse? |
Post by stan // Feb 5, 2007, 11:03am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Steinie, having them blackened is no use to me.if I have to click on it to see it I will have to stop upgrading..I would hope it would be customizable ..as for the hair demo I only saw the stills in the email... |
Post by splinters // Feb 5, 2007, 10:27pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Stan, not sure what you mean by blackened icons. Icons are as colourful as ever, if not more; just the background gradient is darker which in effect makes the icons stand out better.
Of course, this is my opinion but you may think differently. |
Post by nowherebrain // Feb 6, 2007, 7:29am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I'm one person who hopes there will be a way to have a lighter look.. when I think of pro apps I think of visual studio, not poser...the new colour scheme may suit many, but not all..I always liked the bright icons, that's one of the things that sold me on truespace..
why don't they just let it work with windows colour schemes, then you could choose what you like.
I sure hope you read this Roman..you had promised me a better icon visibility option on the next release not worse..
Gord :cool:
Poser and Bryce interface style....YUCK, that's how you cripple an application..I fully agree on how lame(literally) the are. |
Post by stan // Feb 6, 2007, 9:03am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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I should have explained better. it's the gradient that I'm talking about. they don't stand out with it to me, it just makes them harder to see..it is also the colour on the panels..now even the checkboxes are dark and so are some other value controls ..the aspect button on panels seems unreadable..as I said it might suit some people but not all..I just hope it's customizable..a professional app gives you the option to set it up in a manner that suits you |
Post by stoker // Feb 7, 2007, 9:07am
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stoker
Total Posts: 506
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It doesnt suit me anyways..............
I don't like the icons for 7.5, the background on the icons would be fine if the icons were considerably brighter. I dont like the fact they only brighten up slightly when hovered over. (well i guess they do as this occurs in 7.11)
Should be customizeable:jumpy: |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2007, 2:37am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hmmn... Some of these posts leave me feeling a little sad. After all, you can't judge a book by it's cover, you can't judge a movie by it's trailer, you can't tell how a meal will taste from a photograph and you most definately cannot judge a piece of extremely complex software from a handfull of beta screenshots.
Seems to me that many (if not all) of the negative judgements seen here are WAAAY too premature. You can tell me that a car pulls to the left after you've driven it a few times - but you can't tell me a car pulls to the left because you don't like the colour it's painted!
One of the primary marks of an advanced civilisation is that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty - yet here I see an as yet uncompleted software package being charged with shortcomings without the benefit of a trial. That's sad.
Ultimately the colour of the interface is meaningless unless it changes. The human brain does not register constant input it only notices changes in input. The background colour of tS7.5 interface could be shocking electric pink and after five minutes of use you would stop noticing it because your mind can only consciously process a maximum of 9 thoughts at a time and your senses only detect changes in input. How much conscious attention do you put into the colour of the interface in these forums when you are busy thinking of what you want to say and how best to say it?
Putting my perspective into simpler terms - don't knock it till you've tried it. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 8, 2007, 3:03am
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W!zard, this is one case where I disagree with you. I have tried it and it's called 7.11. So already we've been using an application that has changed. I think the point here is what will 7.5 change to make it better.
UI is what first attracted a lot of us to TS to begin with. Roman stated 7.5 will be built using user feedback, so were giving feedback. Everyone of us has our own idea of what the perfect TS7.5 should be. It's up to Caligari to determine our idea's value.
Some of the user reactions here is over the top, I agree with you there but everyone's opinion should count for this next release. |
Post by kena // Feb 8, 2007, 5:59am
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kena
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A good solution to the delema would be fore people to be able to make and use "skins" like most media players have. I don't usually care one way or another what the buttons look like as long as I can find what I need, but I can see other people's points. Yes some are over the top. Thier hearts are in the right place though. :D |
Post by Steinie // Feb 8, 2007, 6:22am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I'll make myself a little more clear after reading my response to W!zard. I like Graysho's idea of allowing customization or using another term a "User Config" file.
What saddens me are all the great users who have moved on to other Programs because no one listened to them. This time Caligari is listening and you want us to wait? |
Post by prodigy // Feb 8, 2007, 3:07pm
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I see many people consern with the color scheme.. I think thats the new face of truespace, maybe the 7.5 doesnt have a custom color schem , because that requires more develop to make what we want... But is the first step, we can't say "I dont like it" because we dont have it yet.. ;)
I still saying my realy concern are not the colors, are the mouse movements, Mouse clicks, Double pick and other excelent good stuffs from the model side...
Not the color!!! ejejejee
But i think the caligari team are making a good job and i hope the next 7.5 be what i expected..
The Truespace 6 with better tools and performance.. :jumpy: |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2007, 3:24pm
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W!ZARD
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This time Caligari is listening and you want us to wait?
Good question Steinie - perhaps I should have been clearer.
No I don't want people to wait when it comes to offering useful feedback or making feature requests. I DO want people to wait before forming negative judgements. You don't know till you give it a go.
That the UI should be customisable is obviously the ultimate solution. Customisability has always been a trueSpace feature and will presumably continue to be so. Requesting customisability and specific customisable features is perfectly acceptable and sensible - of course people should ask for what they want - how else are they going to get it?
On the other hand comments like 'I don't like the colour' and 'I don't like the icons' are not all that helpful. I see complaints being made when there is actually no way of knowing yet if those complaints have any validity beyond being an expression of personal preferences and negative expectations.
Reframing these valid sentiments constructively would yeild far more useful feedback. Saying that 'I don't like the colour' does not say what colour you DO like. If I want a pair of blue socks how helpful is it tell tell people I don't like red socks? Surely it is far more sensible and helpful to state what it is that I DO want - "I prefer blue socks'.
It's not my intention to 'diss' anyone - as Kena points out, hearts are in the right place and we are all entitled to an opinion. I'm just sharing my view FWIW. We all obviously want tS 7.5 to be the best thing it can.:D
If anyone has cause to complain about tS7 it's me - I use tS for making static fantasy scenes and modelling. tS 6.6 does that very well for me - tS 7's innovations provide many features that have little relevence to me (at the moment anyway). In my specific situation tS 7's faster rendering and HDRI capabilities are the only features that really appeal or are applicable to my needs - but you don't hear me saying that I don't like the other aspects of tS 7. I strive to express myself as positively and constructively as possible whilst also respecting that other folk have other needs and other ways of doing things.
There is no such thing as 'perfect software'. Every single application I have has features I use and features I don't use, features I like and features I don't like. My point is that there is no way I can make these distinctions until I have actually used the software.
I love MS Word - I think it's a superb program. I dislike it's autoformating features and that stupid paperclip. I love tS6.6, it's my alltime favourite program. I dislike it's bones.
Caligari to their great credit appears to be listening to customer feedback - I just want to see that they get high-quality, useful, information-rich feedback.
The upside of all this debate is that it should by now be very clear that people want to be able to customise the interface. Roman has often said that Interface design is the true artform of the 21st century (or something like that). Customisation is clearly something that is desired by both designers and users.
We should also remember that with increased customisation abilities comes increased complexity, more menus and/or icons. tS 7.11 is highly customisable yet a common lament is that it's too complicated! Walking the fine line between simplicity and functionality can only be helped by useful feed back - this is fundamental to any type of product design. All I'm trying to say is let's aim to provide Caligari with the best quality feedback we can to assist them in bringing us the best quality product they can.
Ramble mode off.;) |
Post by GraySho // Feb 9, 2007, 12:12am
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GraySho
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I agree that customization should not get in the way by making things too complicated. But that's not the fault of the customizability itself, it's the fault of the way it's customized. Take Silo as example. You can make your very own UI from scratch, by making own icons, icon arrangements etc. Literally ANY color can be changed to ones likings. I've seen a lightwave UI for Silo, a Maya hotbox style menu, a hexagon like interface. And I've done one for my own needs. You can map any function to mouse buttons, without having to use nodes and complicated system functions. You open the mouse setup from a menu, have all mouse buttons with a dropdown menu, where you are able to choose all functions available. And the best thing is, you can save and load, thus share your settings/UI with anyone.
A picture explains more than a thousand words:
http://www.spacerat.at/temp/silo_mouse.jpg
compared to what we have now:
http://www.spacerat.at/temp/ts_mouse.jpg |
Post by Methusela // Feb 9, 2007, 11:34am
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Methusela
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Heh, that certainly puts it in perspective. As a relative coding wuss, I gotta say I like the top one. XD |
Post by roman // Feb 9, 2007, 1:17pm
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roman
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tS 7.11 is highly customisable yet a common lament is that it's too complicated! Walking the fine line between simplicity and functionality can only be helped by useful feed back - this is fundamental to any type of product design. Very true 7.1 is too complicated in UI customization. In 7.5 we are trying to simplify that somewhat.
I want to point out that two images in GraySho's post below are not mutualy exclusive, users should have access to both. You can think of LE graphs as equalent to code (methods) i.e. the stuff inside of objects which makes them do whatever it is they should do. Panels on the other side are part of objects outside i.e. they show the interface which object exposes for changing values of objects attribute. LE on the other hand allow creation of new structure of object attributes.
Both have their place. Traditionaly a programmer creates an object like paintbrush and user can only change the value of paintbrush color. In TS7 user can do both. Now, not every painter wants to create their own unique paintbrushes but some painters might. If the paintbrush turns out to be usefull to other painters the whole community benefits. We already see that, for example the text tool under images in Works in progress gallery is user created (by Prof Khaos), Paul just added it to the gallery so everyone can add description of their artwork in 3D. |
Post by Methusela // Feb 9, 2007, 7:53pm
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Methusela
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In addition to the sleek UI, I've got to say that these new animation tools showcased in the latest Captain's Blog are nothing short of epic. The new possibilities with that "Story" mode are so exciting! Also I'm really looking forward to the new hair and text tools, as I've wanted those for a long time! Well done Caligari! You're really delivering here! |
Post by GraySho // Feb 9, 2007, 11:00pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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I want to point out that two images in GraySho's post below are not mutualy exclusive, users should have access to both.
Sure we should have access to both. Again, the more choices there are to approach a goal, the more users will be happy. In fact, I already experimented with LE quite a lot and think it's very powerfull. It's just not appropiate to have to use it for such a think like basic mouse setup. If there are still some useres who want very exclusive functions like using mouse gestures to activate functions, they might dig into the system functions and do that. |
Post by xmanflash // Feb 10, 2007, 3:53am
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xmanflash
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It's just not appropiate to have to use it for such a think like basic mouse setup.
FWIW I Totally Agree with that statement ... |
Post by roman // Feb 15, 2007, 2:13pm
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roman
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Sure we should have access to both. Again, the more choices there are to approach a goal, the more users will be happy. In fact, I already experimented with LE quite a lot and think it's very powerfull. It's just not appropiate to have to use it for such a think like basic mouse setup. If there are still some useres who want very exclusive functions like using mouse gestures to activate functions, they might dig into the system functions and do that. I hope you like how it works now. This is a default layout with LE hidden:
4336
You can get LE back with a single click on dimension pop-up:
4337
Dimension pop-up is my favorite, it is so simple:
1D = Text edit
2D = Link Edit
3D = WorkSpace
4D = Animation Edit |
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