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Darktree
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Post by Chester Desmond // Jan 8, 2007, 8:53am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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I'm thinking about upgrading to Darktree and was wondering if anyone had any comments about it..good or bad...
specifically I'm wondering about any nasty limitations\missing features it may have when using with truespace thru the Simbiont plugin. The website is pretty honest about certain things that won't work with TS, but nothing like a real user to put it into perspective (or top view :) )
I've been playing with the demo and it seems immensely powerful but at the same time it seems like there are only certain hardwired parameters that can be tweaked as opposed to something like Shadermagic where almost everything can be accessed for manipulation. How does it stack up against Shader Magic or Shaderlab?
Again any insight would be appreciated.. Thanks
in case anyone is interested, it is only $169 to upgrade if you own Raypak. |
Post by Shike // Jan 9, 2007, 1:53am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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I've been using Darktree2.51 for a long time now, and it fits my needs perfectly.
Pros:
Easy to use and well documented compared to the others. (in my opinion..scripting isn't my thing.)
Can be used to create for example: texture-,specularity-,bump-,normal-maps from a shader. ( instead of just using the simbiont material)
If you export a UV-mapped object from tS (using free Luuv plugin) you can load
it into DarkTree and generate distortion and seam free maps....
(a method I really like, since even if you work hard on UV mapping, some surfaces will always be stretched.)
Cons:
The things they admit doesn't work with simbiontS, like anisotrophy....I kinda miss those functions.
It's limited compared to the more scriptbased shaders since, as you said, we only have access to certain nodes, nothing in the core.
(On this forum we've seen some skilled shader makers doing SubsurfaceScattering in the other shaders you mentioned....don't think that's possible in DT.)
So far it doesn't work with tS-VRAY.(but none of the others do either.)
I still think there's problems with using simbiont together with Layered materials...think I've read that somewhere...but since I rarely use
that it's not a problem for me. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Jan 9, 2007, 3:50am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Thanks for the info Shike. It brought up a couple of questions:
Can be used to create for example: texture-,specularity-,bump-,normal-maps from a shader. ( instead of just using the simbiont material)
just to clarify, here you are referring to exporting image files which can be loaded into the color\bump\reflectance channel in TS, or used as webpage background etc...?
If you export a UV-mapped object from tS (using free Luuv plugin) you can load
it into DarkTree and generate distortion and seam free maps....
(a method I really like, since even if you work hard on UV mapping, some surfaces will always be stretched.)
do you mean for pattern\solid colors like a shirt or pants? ie you don't mean 'repairing' seams and distortion in actual texture maps (like a game character's skin) but are referring to the 'seamless' and 'distortionless' nature of procedurals?
This program is so fun that it's worth buying just to play with! |
Post by Shike // Jan 9, 2007, 9:57am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Ok, I'll show with an example:
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Above: is the simple shader I made.
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Above: I choose to render the channels (color + bump) as images
and select my UVmapped object to provide the UV-layout.
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Above: Result of the texture. Note that you can batch render ALL channels you like.
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Above: Made a simple texture in photoshop to make it easier to see how the UV looks.
With seamless I mean the edges where separate UV areas meet, like the blue face and the reddish skull.
With Distortion free I mean trouble areas like the ears.
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Here is the example rendered. Note that the edge between skull and face looks pretty good.
In my Sadghoul project I used this method to create fine noice and a bump to complement the handpainted stuff.
Note, I still had some distortion in my SadGhoul since I made the UV-mapping when it was still a female face,(the nose and mouth is heavily stretched)
it would of course have been better to remake the UV for the Ghoul, but I was rushing it ;) |
Post by Shike // Jan 9, 2007, 10:24am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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And just to make sure your questions are answered ;) :
just to clarify, here you are referring to exporting image files which can be loaded into the color\bump\reflectance channel in TS, or used as webpage background etc...?
Both as webpage backgrounds and as texture-maps used in the tS color\bump\reflectance channels (like I showed above)
do you mean for pattern\solid colors like a shirt or pants? ie you don't mean 'repairing' seams and distortion in actual texture maps (like a game character's skin) but are referring to the 'seamless' and 'distortionless' nature of procedurals?
As I try to show above, it's a way to render the nature of the procedural
into a texture/bump/....and so on..-map.
Sure, I could have handpainted the texture, but would probably go mad when trying to get the UV-areas to match ;)
Note that this works best when you use procedural components in your Darktree material.
If you use 2D components like a repeating image, weave-,brick-,polkadot-patters, it will look strange when it tries to wrap it around a complex UV-mapped shape.
Of course, in my weird example, I could've just used the simbiont shader directly, since Procedurals will always produce
higher quality than textures...takes less memory too....but takes more time to render.
This program is so fun that it's worth buying just to play with!
Agreed! :D |
Post by Chester Desmond // Jan 9, 2007, 10:57am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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wow, thanks for the work that went into answering my question.
Of course, in my weird example, I could've just used the simbiont shader directly, since Procedurals will always produce
higher quality than textures...takes less memory too....but takes more time to render.
without enslaving you again, what would be the possibility of having the shader render differently based on the uv map? ie have the "scales" smaller around the ears (for example) and larger on the head. or would you have to do that as a texture and edit by hand? |
Post by Shike // Jan 9, 2007, 11:20pm
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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wow, thanks for the work that went into answering my question.
without enslaving you again, what would be the possibility of having the shader render differently based on the uv map? ie have the "scales" smaller around the ears (for example) and larger on the head. or would you have to do that as a texture and edit by hand?
No problem :D
In this example I have a simple cube, I went into the UV editor
and scaled one of the sides.
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As you can see (I hope) is that since the UVscaled side has a much smaller
area in the texture map, and therefore looks more pixellated.
BUT, the pattern (veins) still match at the corners.
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To make it a bit clearer. The DarkTree objectbased texture generation almost
behaves as if you have the 3D object in front of you, You place the procedural shader on it and renders it, then it's BAKE'ed into the texture.
If I for example wanted a much finer pattern around the ears, I would first render a map, then change the scale and render a new map.
Then in Photoshop (or similar) put them on layers and mask/cut around the ears, use paint/clone/heal tools to make it seamless.
Hope this helps :) |
Post by Chester Desmond // Jan 11, 2007, 7:29am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Again thanks for the info Shike.. I think I'm going to take the plunge..
this site showed me the true power of Darktree:
http://www.proceduralheavens.com/indexshaders.htm
and this video from that site was the must have deciding factor for me (good god! this is a shader only, albeit with enhanced components)
http://www.proceduralheavens.com/3D/animations/clips/water/mudstream.avi
I also read yesterday that Simbiont TS (free from Darktree website) works under V-ray (except for reflectance-and I came across some workarounds for this too but not sure if they are applicable to TS), which may be of interest to ver. 7 users. |
Post by TomG // Jan 11, 2007, 9:50am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Color shaders can often show up under V-Ray - they are "baked" to a texture, which allows V-Ray to render them.
Reflectance shaders of course are all about calculating how the light hits the surface and depend on information fed to them from the render engine, so don't move between render engines. You should find many of your color procedurals, and bump maps too for that matter and maybe even transparencies, could well work in V-Ray. It might not always be 100% the same, but should be a good approximation at least.
Reflectance shaders and Layers are the things that won't move over to V-Ray at the moment (didnt check into the workaround, but I'd be very surprised if there was any way to get a reflectance shader designed for Lightworks to work in V-Ray - though I've been surprised before!)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Chester Desmond // Jan 11, 2007, 10:13am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Thanks for clarifying that.. so it basically works the same as virtualight then? ie makes a texture map from the shader..
the Vray work around was just something I saw in passing and may not even apply to TS, I don;t have ver. 7 so didn't dig in too deep. Just deep enough to cry wolf probably haha
Speaking of virtualight... does it handle bump maps ok? I seem to remember reading that it does not (similar to TS native radiosity) |
Post by Shike // Jan 12, 2007, 2:14am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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and this video from that site was the must have deciding factor for me (good god! this is a shader only, albeit with enhanced components)
I also read yesterday that Simbiont TS (free from Darktree website) works under V-ray (except for reflectance-and I came across some workarounds for this too but not sure if they are applicable to TS), which may be of interest to ver. 7 users.
Ok, you saw that EnhanceDT components was used:
http://www.shaders.org/enhance:dt/index.htm
To clarify what it is: It's not free (at least it wasn't when I bought it..?) and it adds a lot of extra procedural components for you to create the shaders.
I bought it...but failed to notice that it was some kind of subscription,
during the subscription you can download any new components they make,
but not when it runs out.
However, the components I purchased still works perfectly with Darktree, so
they are not timelimited in any way.
So just for you information, only look at the darktree site material-gallery to see what you can create.
(unless they have some package deal, and you get EnhanceDT also..?)
And Tom is right, I forgot the VRAY-bakes-procedural-colortextures thingy. |
Post by RAYMAN // Feb 19, 2007, 4:29pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Reflectance shaders and Layers are the things that won't move over to V-Ray at the moment (didnt check into the workaround, but I'd be very surprised if there was any way to get a reflectance shader designed for Lightworks to work in V-Ray - though I've been surprised before!)
HTH!
Tom
So what does that little word "moment" want to say ?
I think a product that costs extra should not come with less options !
;) I for myself love the symbionts and because I want to update
to vray it is a great problem !
Peter |
Post by GraySho // Feb 20, 2007, 1:34am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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The question is, will any lightworks shaders work beyond tS7. I read before, that the lightworks renderer needs the old modeler side of tS, therefore the bridge. Are there any plans to continue support for lightworks and it's shader plugins within player, or will it be dropped sooner or later? If it get's player support, I'm sure the plugins (like simbiont ts) had to be rewritten. And somehow I doubt that it will happen soon or at all.
I feel a bit uncertain about vray for tS, there seem to be a lot of drawbacks. I heard that bumpmaps make trouble, no mapped channels for reflectance shaders, no layered materials. It might be an excellent renderer for architecture and visualization of new products, but IMO it's not capable of handling most of the work I do.
To get back to DT, I considered purchasing it as well, but above mentioned reasons kept me away from spending money on a horse that won't make it to the end of the season (tS8).
Clarification please? |
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