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Letter in a Bottle to Captain's Blog
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Letter in a Bottle to Captain's Blog // Roundtable
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 5:06am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Kaith
Or i said wrong or you miss the point..
I try to say, equal as jamesmc im not agree with some points of caligari like the bug fixes from older softwares.. But i understand thats doesn't gonna happend..
And i see how this forum it became more agresive and agresive with each posts.. Thats not good at all for the comunity..
Thats clear??
Ok... |
Post by KeithC // Feb 25, 2007, 5:24am
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KeithC
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Ah, I understand you now Prodigy. ;)
I agree that things should remain "non-combative" here, as the Caligari forums have always been a great place for people to have a discussion, without getting nasty towards each other.
-Keith |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 25, 2007, 6:15am
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W!ZARD
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Sit back, relax and take a look at things from my perspective. What have y'all got to lose? There is a world of difference between aggression and assertion. At the end of the day it is not what is said but how it is said, that is remembered.
There is nothing wrong with people expressiong their dissatisfaction or their frustration however there is a world of difference between saying that I don't personally aggree with what someone else does and saying that the someone else in question is wrong. The first statement is a true expression of a personal opinion and is due respect as such. The second statement is a critical expression indicating a factual state when in fact it's just an opinion (and often and emotionally based and under-informed opinion at that!). It is neither respectful nor respectable.
As someone once said - everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not to their own facts. Effective assertion in communication comes from clearly owning your own opinions - ie "It is my opinion that 'the other person' is mistaken because... " rather than "The 'other person' is wrong.
In order for any company to successfully meet the many needs of it's customers it needs effective feedback - not pointless criticism (no matter how satisfying that criticism may feel to the critic in the short term).
*************
This ones for Jamesmc - a question (which hopefully won't put fuel on the fire). How is it the you are able to judge Caligari and it's business practices with impunity but Prodigy is not allowed to judge you? I don't see how you can have it both ways. Surely he is equally as entitled to express his opinion as you are? Or am I missing something here?
Finally. this dynamic we see here is quite typical in my experience - someone expresses a negative judgement (rather than providing useful feedback) about a software package or it's companies marketing policy and other loyal customers leap to the companies defence, the original poster feels unheard and frustrated and the cycle goes on and on. You can see this same dance performed here at the Caligari Forums, at the Terragen forums, at the Vue forums, at the Poser forums and so on and on. Every time the problem is triggered by folk expressing themselves ineffectively by using language that is aggresive rather than assertive.
The effectiveness of ANY communication can only be judged by the response it receives - that's worth repeating!
The effectiveness of ANY communication can only be judged by the response it receives - if you don't get the response you are looking for, then the way you are communicating is ineffective - and it's that simple. If you are not getting the results you want then doing the same thing over again will only get you the same dissatisfying response - try a different approach, use a new strategy, after all the old one didn't work!!! And remember it always helps to aim to stay positive, even (or especially) in the face of adversity.
Hope this helps
3 dimensional Love and Fuzzies to everyone
W!ZARD;) |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 25, 2007, 6:27am
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jamesmc
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Being verbose expressing platitudes isn't really effective either. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 25, 2007, 7:56am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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The confusion here is that when I'm in disagreement with a "Company" and "Roman" is the figurehead others seem to think my disagreement is personal. When we attack each other that IS personal and should stop.
This is a Company forum that is read by Company personal. If we're unhappy with Company procedures posting here will also give the user feedback on similar situations others have experienced.
You tell me how else we get notified of changes to TS upgrades, features, etc...their occasional promotions? They find plenty of time to create Trueplaces don't they? Why not feed their loyal users a bone occasionally.
If I met Roman on the street I would tell him he is doing a great job but Prodigy should make his ears bigger.;) |
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 25, 2007, 9:24am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Fur shader is cool...
Prodigy, have you seen a fur shader in action or are you refering to the new hair movie that Roman has released? If you have seen a fur shader in action, I'm jealous as I haven't seen it and I want to but I won't go down that road again after the up roar my previous request to see a specific members only movie started. If you are refering to the hair movie, I don't really call that fur. It's great hair, yes, but it's not fur. The new hair in TrueSpace 7.5 looks like the hair in Poser 5 which is great for creating hair, but hopeless at doing fur. I really do hope that a specific fur tool or a fur mode for the hair tool will be available in 7.5. The hair is great and I'll of course make use of it, but I want fur more then I want hair. If you are refering to a specific members only movie or pic that I'm unable to access, just let me know that you have seen something different to what I've seen so I know that fur is on the way. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 25, 2007, 9:44am
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I'm sure Prodigy saw what I saw.... no fur examples yet. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 9:46am
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nono paul.. im refered to the "hair" movie and yes, you are right.. is not fur.. but you can make FUR if you add more hairs and be more little..
Its the same to make grass.. put a green collor and its grass.. :D
Yes i think is not a shader... but you know what i mean!! jejje |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 25, 2007, 1:04pm
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Can I do what I like here and say what I like? I am assuming I am invisible from the fact I was ignored anyway. :mad:
Mike |
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 1:11pm
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Who say that????? Somebody hear something???
jajaja its a joke...
Realy, why you say that?? |
Post by Steinie // Feb 25, 2007, 2:06pm
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mykyl1966--The hair looks very nice but still I wonder is this a Truespace feature or a vray feature?------Anyway I don't expect an answer as I have asked before and nothing came of it then apart from nobody knows.
Are you asking us? Same answer as before! |
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 2:27pm
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Far as i know, and for what i see on mails and in this forum.. Vray gonna have a better GI, Deep Of Field, Better Support for animations, Support the new hair system. Layer rendering and.. and....mmmm :confused: and a free coke if you buy untill yesterday... Ouch i lost the coke!! jejeje
Thats is unoficial, im not relationated with the caligari cor.. you know ;)
That questions must be answered buy tom.. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 2:58pm
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prodigy
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And yes.. i forgive, the motion blur.. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 25, 2007, 3:05pm
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Total Posts: 3029
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JamesMc show on a video an interesting point, forbiden my me..
http://amfilms.hash.com/search/entry.php?entry=742
1)The new hair tools are support dynamic hair???
2) if we gonna had dynamic movements as showed on the lips of the monkey..
I think i whant to much for the next release but thats be needed on the future..
Thanks!! |
Post by TomG // Feb 26, 2007, 3:38am
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Hi all,
"You can please some people some of the time...."
Our policy of not discussing releases before they are imminent has been discussed many times. To re-iterate once more, we have learned from 20 years of experience - if we show something and it changes before it makes it in, people are disappointed. If we don't show something, then people think it isn't going to be there (even if it does show up in the final release), and then they buy other software and get disappointed that the feature was there after all.
This time around we decided to be more open than usual. But again, as our 20 years have shown us, people are not happy. We choose what we show and don't show depending on how far along it is, how final it is, and whether we happen to have some interesting test data to show.
Now that we have shown some things, we are told that we are wrong for not showing things on request. In other words, point 2 above, we haven't shown it, so people are complaining.
However we see this each and every release - that no matter what policy we adopt, it makes some people unhappy. We have looked very hard at what makes most of our users happy, and have decided our policy on what we show and what we don't show based on that, and nothing here is anything new to us or makes us rethink that policy.
We will continue to show as much as we can, through the Captain's Blogs. For some, that will be great. For others, it will not be enough. For yet others, what we show will be cause to criticize us. That is the way it goes with a new release :)
All our users who have been with us through some or all of that 20 years will also by now recognise this pattern, having watched it happen in the community time and again.
While we are sorry if you have not seen the tool that interests you being demo'ed yet, I have to say that you have only seen a small fraction of what the next tS release will bring, and it will be that way up until the release itself. Do please see previous threads on the long discussions about this issue, and understand that this is not KGB marketing, keeping things secret, etc, but is the approach we have discovered through experience works best. Note that there is no perfect solution here, each solution is always a compromise, and with a compromise there are always some who are unhappy unfortunately.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 26, 2007, 4:11am
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Surely you have a basic design matrix? If you don't, how do you establish project times, milestones and goals? Or is it because I have engineer training that I worry about these things too much?
A lot of companies have product comparison charts even on items they have not completed yet. The purpose of these would be to keep potential buyers interested in the product.
Take the hair issue. This has already been shown. Or the completed items in 7.1 version. One could make a chart on said items and show a bar extended out for possible advances even without saying anything more.
UV entry is not a secret is it? I mean if the product is going to have UV manipulation, say so. One doesn't have to give every little detail about it.
If the product has been going for twenty years one has to ask themselves why the johnny-come-latelys are outselling your product.
But anyway, it is not my company and if it's like any type of product I purchase, lack of information on the product may be the key reason I decide not to purchase it. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 26, 2007, 4:36am
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TomG,
I think I have read every single time you have read us Caligari Policies so you didn't have to repeat them for my sake. I also know that one person there CAN talk about it (and has) and that is Roman. I specifically asked Roman if he could share SOMETHING about UV mapping since I had another purchase in mind. My money doesn't grow on trees. I as a loyal user wasn't asking for the Oceans to be divided but some mention about the features or status of UV Mapping in TS 7.5. You guys have shared a lot with us and I for one appreciate it but guess what? The other side of the coin is I also have stuck with you guys all these years and I think that is worth something too. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 26, 2007, 4:48am
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W!ZARD
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Being verbose expressing platitudes isn't really effective either.
And reducing my genuine attempt at being helpful to 'verbose platitudes' is, James? I'd ask you how but I suspect you won't answer that direct question anymore than you answered the last direct question I asked you. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 26, 2007, 5:01am
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We have a saying in the aerospace engineering business (which I've been a part of for quite some time).
"Better, faster, cheaper... pick 2"
Obviously a customer doesn't like to read such words in their marketing brochure but it speaks volumes of truth.
Other than the Lockheed Skunkworks I have yet to see an engineering solution delivered on time, on cost, with all advertized features working. I don't work for Lockheed by the way so no conflict of interest when I say that.
Everyone hates schedule slips. Everyone wants lower prices. And everyone demands the kitchen sink be thrown in as well. Caligari customers are no exception.
Alas, that's the nature of a competitive marketplace. To the extent that another company has a great idea or approach, they're going to profit by it.
The fact that Caligari has been in this business for 20+ years is nothing to sneeze at though. I've seen dozens of buyouts and outright product desertions over the last decade myself. If Caligari was about "scamming the customer" they would have long ago vanished in a puff of green smoke.
It's fair to make comparison to other companies on the basis of all 3 dimensions. It's fair to complain about bugs. It's fair to complain about dated features. It's fair to complain about high cost. It's fair to complain about schedule slips.
All of these things affect the artist's bottom line.
I'd like to be able to assume that folks complain because they care about the future of the company because they want to continue using the company's product into the future. That may in part be true but it would be naive to believe that this is the only factor at work.
Wizard is correct about the "aggressive" vs "assertive" distinction. It is possible to be quite firm in one's opinion without being destructive to the forum's morale.
Not saying that I've been innocent of "aggressive" behavior all the time but I will say that conversations that keep a useful dialog going are more likely to be productive than outright shouting matches. |
Post by TomG // Feb 26, 2007, 5:31am
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Well, we'll continue to do our best to share info. And people will continue to be unhappy no matter how much or how little we share, but that won't deter us from doing what we regard as being in the best interest of the customer.
Roman hasn't shared the UV mapping with you because it takes time to put toegether demos, because all tools are not developed equally and at the same time, and because he has been pretty busy of late for some reason ;) It is simply not possible to demo features on demand, we dont have the manpower or resources to do so. I can't go discussing why this feature isnt shown and why that is not shown, because to do so would mean diving into information that is closed under NDA. So if a particular feature doesnt get demo'ed, then we won't be able to tell you why (time to make demo, feature isnt ready, feature undergoing changes, we didnt see your post, and so on).
Same with product design matrices etc - this is software development, they change daily! That's the point of repeating the policy - if I tell you today's list of features, well you'll be unhappy when it has changed for better or worse next week. That's what our years of experience in doing releases have taught us, and why we don't share that sort of info in advance of the release.
So, do keep watching the Captain's Blog for info - our apologies to those who havent seen what they want to see yet, we will keep on showing what we can as often as we can!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 26, 2007, 5:42am
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jamesmc
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And reducing my genuine attempt at being helpful to 'verbose platitudes' is, James? I'd ask you how but I suspect you won't answer that direct question anymore than you answered the last direct question I asked you.
Okay I'll answer your question even though it is silliness.
Saying someone's opinion is worse than someone elses on matters where subjectivity is the main judging characteristics is a fruitless endeavor. Opinions are highly subjective.
Now if you wanted an objective opinion on how to construct a pocket watch, then Prodigy could be a better judge in that situation.
However, when it comes to consumption of a product, there is no one that can judge my opinion on my tastes, preferences or desires when it comes to what I want to see in a product.
They may have a different opinion which is fine, but I don't know their needs or desires when it comes to using the product. Also, subjectivity has many other influences that I won't get into here, just to say some is based in fact and some subjective difference are based on style or the comfort zone of the user/viewer.
Without getting too verbose myself, I'll stop it there. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 26, 2007, 6:11am
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jamesmc
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...Wizard is correct about the "aggressive" vs "assertive" distinction. It is possible to be quite firm in one's opinion without being destructive to the forum's morale...Not saying that I've been innocent of "aggressive" behavior all the time but I will say that conversations that keep a useful dialog going are more likely to be productive than outright shouting matches.
"I will endeavor to be less frank in describing humans." - Spock |
Post by prodigy // Feb 26, 2007, 8:07am
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Tom, the first time when i ask you, it was dificult to me understand you.. but few months ago i understood your position.. You cant say nothing from the new versions..
But here are a fact..
If you show a picture using Vray over a E-mail with a tittle Dof with Vray.. That means its a fact on the next release ts7.5 got Dof with Vray...
Or if roman show a hair tool.. Its a fact, on the next Release we gonna have a Hair tool..
Or answer simple questions..like the hairs are poligonal or not..
I think thats doesnt gonna change at this develop point.. or yes?
I know allways are unhappy customers, but make those happy customers informed... on what is a fact or what is finished.
Thanks and best regards. |
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 26, 2007, 8:58am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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nono paul.. im refered to the "hair" movie and yes, you are right.. is not fur.. but you can make FUR if you add more hairs and be more little..
Its the same to make grass.. put a green collor and its grass.. :D
Yes i think is not a shader... but you know what i mean!! jejje
Thanks for clearing that up :). |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 26, 2007, 3:13pm
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ProfessorKhaos
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"I will endeavor to be less frank in describing humans." - Spock
Ah, if only we were all like Spock... this forum would be so peaceful and boring. :p
I guess I would add that a measure of frankness shouldn't be based solely on the number of words alone but the honesty with which they are given. The person who is not honest with themselves may have an easy time of being direct but a hard time of being truly frank with others. Assertive people are by their very nature respectful and frank (a.k.a. open and sincere).
The people I've met in life with the best assertive skills have always had a knack for telling the truth with compassion. Aggressive folks are a mixed bag. They tell the truth when it serves their purpose as a weapon and consciously or unconsciously distort the truth to support their side when it cannot.
One does not have to look at very many threads to realize that there's quite a few aggressive posts on the site as of late. Some are due to misinterpretations and others due to strong personalities. Each of us has received a dose and many of us (myself included) have sent a few more down the road. Regardless of the cause, it's here and it sucks.
Personally, the next time I see a thread that begins to suck I hope it has something to do with the "speed-model a vaccuum cleaner" challenge. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 26, 2007, 3:46pm
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Right or wrong if you look back on the forums of the past, the CaliArchive and the TSML there has been some abrasive tones there too. I can think of at least two members that have drifted away (thank goodness) that made your hair stand on end. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 26, 2007, 3:56pm
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W!ZARD
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Ah, if only we were all like Spock... this forum would be so peaceful and boring. :p
Boring? Hmmn! (Raises one eyebrow thoughtfully) Fascinating! My Mum always told me that only boring people get bored :D . With astute, thoughtful and insightful contributors like you Professor there is not much danger of this forum getting boring in my opinion! We all learn so much from each other.
I see Prodigy has even learned to laugh in English! He's gone from Jejeje to Ha ha ha!
From time to time I've seen some heated dicussions on these forums but unlike many other places those discussions usually end up peacefully.
Group hug anyone? |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 26, 2007, 4:37pm
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ProfessorKhaos
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Right or wrong if you look back on the forums of the past, the CaliArchive and the TSML there has been some abrasive tones there too. I can think of at least two members that have drifted away (thank goodness) that made your hair stand on end.
Yup. Been there myself. Some of my more 'rabid' moments were spent in the old forums under another name (Nightflight) so hopefully the one who faded away wasn't me! :D |
Post by prodigy // Feb 26, 2007, 4:41pm
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I see Prodigy has even learned to laugh in English! He's gone from Jejeje to Ha ha ha!
hahahaha..???? i lost my native laugh... :confused:
Yeap.. ITS TRUE!! Ha is how we say JA!!
Anyway.. if i say JAJAJAJA.. it sounds like HA HA HA!! the H in spanish doesnt make any sound.. If i say HAHAHA in spanish.. its like say the same HA but without the inithial HHHHHa
a a a a...
Maybe some dumb can laugh like that.. A A A A A :D
Anybody undestand phonetic?? jajaja |
Post by prodigy // Feb 26, 2007, 5:31pm
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prodigy
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WHAT'S HAPPEND HERE!! Stop with the kung fu kicks !!
We are not kids, we are professionals with education.. I think its was enoght... QUE!! tengo que decirlo en español para que me entiendan!!! :mad: |
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