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VRay and TS7.5?
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VRay and TS7.5? // Roundtable
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 21, 2007, 9:05am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Hi Folks.
Ok, I'm probably going to upset a few people by asking such a dumb question, but I have to ask. Just what difference does VRay make to TrueSpace over the default renderer? I have looked at some renders which have been marked as being done in VRay and while they do seem crisper, I'm finding myself a bit pushed to justify the price increase. See, I have my money put aside to invest in a copy of 7.5 when it ships, but I recently have been wondering about VRay and what difference that will make to my work in TrueSpace? Is there a render speed increase in using VRay over the default renderer? Also, what other options does VRay open up? Need to get some answers so I can know if i need to put a bit more cash in the pot ;).
All feedback appreciated. |
Post by frank // Feb 21, 2007, 9:14am
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Vray offers things such as global illumination (GI), caustics, etc.
I'd say GI is the bulk of what makes Vray worth having.
GI simulates the way light bounces from different surfaces. To achieve this in the standard tS Lightworks renderer, you'd need several lights to get a similar effect.
Vray's GI rendering is also pretty fast compared to other renderers.
Caustics simulates the way light penetrates and exits glass, and is scattered/cast onto other objects.
To put it simply, you'll get more "realistic" renders with Vray. |
Post by Steinie // Feb 21, 2007, 9:26am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Just ask Prodigy if he would get rid of VRay he would chop your arm off first!
If you are doing Professional work like Interior Design Work VRay is a must. If you do TS for fun and your short on cash I would wait. If you just happen to have the cash and love using TS with all possible solutions dive in!
The people that are experienced in using VRay are getting remarkable results. I'm still learning like some others so watch who's work your comparing to. |
Post by frank // Feb 21, 2007, 9:51am
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frank
Total Posts: 709
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Vray does make a huge difference in getting realistic results "out of the box".
However, don't feel as though it is absolutely necessary to have Vray to get a similar effect.
It really comes down to how much time you are willing to spend on setup (lighting and shading).
If you're trying to simulate, say, natural light coming through a bedroom...
#1 ... and you only want to throw in a single light outside the room, and have the light come in, bounce off the floor, walls, etc, and give a natural appearance quickly, Vray is the way to go.
OR
#2 ... and you don't mind adding several local/area lights here and there (with their colors set to that of the walls, floor, etc.) with attenuation/falloff set, to approximate the light bouncing effect, adding light arrays (there are a couple of plugins that make this easy) then you don't necessarily need Vray. Just takes a considerable amount of time to do.
For evidence (and inspiration) for achieving realistic lighting in Lightworks, check out some of Buzz's work:
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/16475.html?1089369180
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/16511.html?1094308279
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/16751.html?1093163263
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/17343.html?1099367539
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/17745.html?1106213297 |
Post by rj0 // Feb 21, 2007, 9:59am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Hi Paul,
VRay appears to excel at GI, especially for indoor scenes, and seems to be the 3D industry renderer of choice for architectural renderings, as well as the benchmark for other renderer comparisons. It's known for both speed and quality (as well as relatively simple setup). It's also pretty darned expensive when purchased as a renderer for 3DS Max, etc. Important Note: As I understand it, the trueSpace version of VRay is built upon the standard VRay base/API (developed by Chaos Group), but, of course, the rate at which it's feature set becomes available for use in trueSpace is up to Caligari development.
Nice artwork gallery, etc. at it's home at:
http://www.chaosgroup.com
rj |
Post by prodigy // Feb 21, 2007, 10:05am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Hehehee...
Paul, as a Vray user, i can say few things..
1) you gonna get better Images quality in less time.. But as usual, Vray dont make your models better, only looks better with less work.. 8)
2) Vray have some good shaders with glossines and fresnel shaders.. very cool indeed to make wood floors, or metals...
3) you may lost other known shaders from Lightworks like Darktree or Shader Magic.. :( thats the bad new..
4) I found very interesting how vray render, cause i have few scenes full of objects with reflections and vray has rendered in 15 minutes.. in lightworks i think that tooks about 1 hour for sure..
In conclusion, the best part of Vray is :
1) Render Quality
2) Render Speed
I have vray from 7.11 and i NEVER render again on Lightworks..
And be more on the future.. thats the best Part!! :jumpy: |
Post by prodigy // Feb 21, 2007, 10:31am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Mmmmm.... Can i say something??
I recomend that question be aswered by Tom...
I know why i'm saying..... :rolleyes: |
Post by Methusela // Feb 21, 2007, 7:23pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Man, whatever happened to Buzz? That guy was so good.
I agree with everyone else, especially Prodigy, Vray rules. I have only used lightworks when I needed either a ridiculously quick, simple, low quality render, a depth channel, or something with volumetrics. Other than that, it's all Vray! I'd certainly recommend it, though I do hope more of its 3DS Max features are implemented into TrueSpace. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 21, 2007, 7:36pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Anyone want to render this scene as is in tS7 and post image here so I can see the comparison with my own scene render in tS66? |
Post by splinters // Feb 21, 2007, 10:51pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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There would be no difference Jamesmc as model side of tS7 is same as tS6.6. I could add HDRI but that would change your image. Also, lightworks materials and Vray materials (simbionts for example) are not always interchangeable.
So your scene could be made to look great but it would need some work doing to it and that would kind of defeat the point of your experiment.
Still, I may have a look if I have time just to show difference. |
Post by RAYMAN // Feb 21, 2007, 11:28pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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There would be no difference Jamesmc as model side of tS7 is same as tS6.6.
Splinters you are right !
The renders of TS 6.6 and TS7 lightworks are more or less the same ...
I used the same setup and rendered it in my new Ts 7.1 ......
it was a simple curved backdrop an area light from top made from an
object that had light on with the same setting and yes it is the same
shadow and the looks are ident.
Could anyone tell me if TS 7.5 asks for an update of VRAY !
Thomas ?
I want to get VRAY but if I have to update that too I rather wait
:confused: |
Post by Steinie // Feb 22, 2007, 2:13am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Hi Folks.
Just what difference does VRay make to TrueSpace over the default renderer?
All feedback appreciated.
One of the better answers was from TomG awhile back...
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1501&highlight=vray |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 4:21am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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James here you have few examples rendered with TS7.11 and Vray 1.0 on a P4 3.0 ghz Hyper Threading 1Giga Dual Channel with A Gforce 6600 Vtd 256mb..
This "final Render" took about 2 minutes calculate Hdri light in very good quality + Global Illumination with Very Good quality + Soft Shadows Very good quality too and Caustics 1000 photons at a good quality too.. 2 Minutes to render this picture without antialiasing, but you dont think its a big render time diference..
4537
And here are few Render testing your scene and you can see how fast work vray in real time, and then you and others can take your own opinion about Vray.
*BTW all the renders are using your scene without change the shaders of any bottle..
Best Regards.. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 7:36am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Another thing to keep in mind before spending extra on Vray is that the Virtualight GI renderer is built in to TS now and you can get some very good results with that too in the area of Global Illum. and caustics. I'm actually surprised at how little this is mentioned since TS7's release. Here's a quick default settings render of james' scene done with VL.. I used one local light with shadows enabled and no global illumination, just caustics enabled. Judging by prodigy's video, VL is slower than Vray, but again no tweaking was involved. (I'm not sure what's up with the label's shadow) |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 22, 2007, 7:49am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Thanks Prodigy and Chester for doing the download.
What difference I see is how tS7 handles caustics. Of course there might be other factors in the lighting that I'm not aware.
Trying to make a comparison graphically, which is of course what matters in the end game.
Mine is on the right from tS66 |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 7:55am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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1) the label has no texture... for that is black.. ;)
2) You can set Transparent Shadows but that yes increse the rendering time.. and more if you set Transparent shadows + Soft Shadows.. but you get a incredible light quality.. :D
I use VL on ts6.6 to get the GI, I think VL its nice if you whant to use on outdoor scenes, The GI are very noisie but you can get a good result too..
Vray is a high end render engine.. and is not expensive at all.. If you work with Truespace, i recomends buy Vray.. If you are a novice or you only want to play making animations maybe i not recomend..
But at this time, to sell your work you need QUALITY, SPEED and A GOOD PRICE!! jejeje
I know you can make these bottles very cool with Lightworks, but i bet you spend more time than to other users with Vray and "MAYBE" the image rendered in Vray be better..
Nothing more to say! Good to know you like the video. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 22, 2007, 8:22am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I forgot about passing the texture along on that one bottle. Didn't really matter cause I was interested in seeing how transparency was done on Vray.
Thanks for taking the time Prodigy, appreciate it. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 8:36am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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just to clarify, my image above was done in TS6.6 using the virtuaout plugin to access virtualight..I'm assuming the functionality is largely the same in TS7.
I don't think your comparison is quite "fair" between the renderers, james because you have rendered with fairly default and plain environment and no shadows. Lightworks does not do caustics at all but I think gives great results otherwise with some set up. My image below is your scene rendered in lightworks with an IBL light.
I'm not trying to debate whether Vray is good or not as I have no experience with it, but I just hate to think that people feel they "need" V-ray to get decent results. In the end it boils down to what you need to do, and how quickly. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 22, 2007, 8:47am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Chester, where does one get the virtualight plug-in?
And can you show me how it affects that particular scene? |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 9:12am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Chester,
I know IBL lights.. are nice to fake Global Illumination, but as you know to get a nice render you must add qualiti "more than 40" to get soft shadows.. In your image i clear to see the shadows..
With Vray you can get, Fast Caustics, Fast GI, Fast Bouncing Calculation, Fast Hdri lights and Reflections and you can save your calculation to render another day if you want.. even render in another size image with the same calculation..
Vray is the best at my eyeball to interior renders, Object Renders and exterior renders..
As a customer i spend my time to show those guys who want see more about Vray and they can.. only that.. im not a salesman..:rolleyes: but maybe sound like one..
If you want still working with Lightworks, its ok , but have in mind what is the present and future of render engines..
Vray is only 1 are other excelent render engines like Renderman or Mental Ray but unfortunatly not suported in TS... |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 9:14am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Jamesmc, VirtuaOut is the plugin.. and you can get in RayPack. or i dont know if still in sale separated from the pack.. :confused: |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 9:14am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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www.virtuaout.com
It's a bridge between TS and VL which you'll have to pay for, but the Virtualight renderer itself is free.
it also comes in the Raypak.
Basically the main difference (in my 2 pictures anyway) is the addition of caustics in the Virtualight render.
Renderers like virtualight and Vray both calculate lighting and shadows based on the amount of light in the scene (similar to how TS radiosity works) and how it bounces off (and through) different surfaces. The result is a more natural and realistic render. It's rather too deep a subject for me to say much accurately, but in a scene such as yours, Global Illumination renderers will give you the realistic focusing brightspots (caustics) where Lightworks will not. Everything else like reflections, shadow etc can be done but the calculations won't be as "real" and in order to get realistic soft shadows the render time will most likely be longer.
Without trivializing their power, global illumination renderers take ALOT of the busy work out of making images look realistic. Arguably one of the main components of "artistry". |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 9:24am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Without trivializing their power, global illumination renderers take ALOT of the busy work out of making images look realistic. Arguably one of the main components of "artistry".
Im not agree with that sentece.. is not take ALOT of the busy work at all..
You may scarry without any sence.. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 9:47am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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I don't mean to turn this into a debate, and especially one which becomes a debate about the definition of "art". Having the ability and\or wish to manually and\or creatively light a scene in order to produce an effect is an artistic challenge in my opinion. Telling the renderer that it is 2:00 pm on an overcast day and pressing start defeats this challenge in my opinion. I am simplifying the concepts of course; I also feel this way about modelling from scratch vs importing Poser figures -depending on the project I may choose one method over the other based on personal standards. On the other end, taking 6 hours to light and render a scene that could be lit and rendered in 10 mins (or modelling an anonymous tourist figure for a visualization) makes no sense from a business and\or personal time or client patience perspective.
I am trying to help the thread's authour decide whether or not it is worth an extra $300 (ignoring Sales and Bundles for the sake of my argument) to purchase Vray. To me, it is not (nor is TS7 at this point) and I am simply trying to show him why I feel that way. I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade him from buying Vray. Besides render quality and speed, other things you've mentioned (shader compatibility etc) are also necessary to think about. If I was approaching a purchase decision based on "the future" of the industry and rendering software and\or was interested in interior lighting and product illustration, my point of view, and maybe even my choice of software, would be radically different. I also have a price threshold for additional functionality which neither TS7 or Vray are within at this moment in time. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 9:58am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Chester..
Paul ask about Vray..
You have Vray???
Then let Paul choose..
I give my video to show how it works..
You give VirtuaLight render and its good too because it came with TS7.11 or 6.6 with Virtuaout plugin.. And i have too.
About A debate of Art.. nonono.. as i told in other post, Vray doesnt make your models better. .only looks better..
And i can tell is not hard to get a preaty good looking render with Vray.. IS more easy and faster than ever in the Truespace history... |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 10:16am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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No I don't have Vray, as you know.
I am "letting" Paul choose and frankly don't see your point here. I'm not even going to go so so far as to let him know "it's ok" to use one renderer or the other.
He didn't ask for gee-whiz info about Vray so much as info to help him decide whether the additional expense is worth it. A debate which requires pros AND cons. In actual fact, the bulk of my posts were in response to questions from Jamesmc which were brought up by the orignal question in the thread.
Here's 2 quotes from the original post which will help to illuminate (globally hopefully) the direction from which any of my comments can be taken:
I'm finding myself a bit pushed to justify the price increase.
All feedback appreciated. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 10:27am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Ufff. :(
Chester.. Finishing this.. I only show how Vray works.. you, Paul, the teletoobies or he-man can buy vray.. its cool, easy to work, have a very good price compared than the 680U$S than the max version. yes is not the same.. but is cheap at last..
More than show on my pc, how it works.. with the James scene i cant do..
Finish!!!!!! |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 10:36am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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th real question is whether I can force you to reply by saying I got the last word in our little debate :) |
Post by prodigy // Feb 22, 2007, 11:03am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Yes.. yes!! you have!!! but i have the last Post!! :D |
Post by Chester Desmond // Feb 22, 2007, 11:35am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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I hate when that happens. ;) |
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