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trueSpace 7.5 Artists Guide
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
trueSpace 7.5 Artists Guide // Roundtable
Post by hoss // Feb 28, 2007, 1:17pm
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hoss
Total Posts: 21
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Hello everyone. I have a question, well, actually more of a request.
I am one of the customers that preordered trueSpace 7 before it was released, and therefore qualify for the free upgrade to version 7.5 when it is released. Now, I assumed at the time (and still assume) that the upgrade will be a downloadable upgrade, which is fine with me. Since that time, version 7.5 (then referred to as 7.1), I believe, is going to be a much more substantial upgrade than originally thought. Which brings me to my point: For such a substantial feature upgrade, I would prefer to have a copy of the printed Artists Guide. I know that the upgrade will contain it in PDF format, as always, and I can print stuff out from that, however, I would like to request that Caligari would offer the people that preordered trueSpace 7 and get the 7.5 upgrade for free, the opportunity to pay a fee and be able to buy a hardcopy of the printed manual from them (with a valid trueSpace 7 serial number, of course). I know that, for example, E-on Software offers this kind of a deal to their customers of their Vue product line, usually for around $50.
Just a request on my part, perhaps others would be interested as well!
-hOss |
Post by Norm // Feb 28, 2007, 2:00pm
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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Printed manuals are going the way of the dinosaur.
ts7.5 will be PDF only manual. I would expect that paper manuals will no longer be produced, due to their excessive cost to produce. |
Post by TomG // Feb 28, 2007, 4:50pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Not sure if you already have a tS7.0 manual, if not we can certainly get you one of those. Right enough though, the manual won't be reprinted for 7.5. A lot of people have had very satisfactory results with printing from PDF though, so all is not lost if you do want hardcopy.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Colfax // Feb 28, 2007, 6:46pm
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Colfax
Total Posts: 49
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...So a woman walks into an electronics store to return the software she bought.
"Well may I ask what was wrong with it?" said the employee.
"Well there's no printed manual in the box, so I have no idea how to use this software." the woman replied.
"Well," said the clerk "the manual is on the disk with the software, you simply view it on the computer."
"Well that does me no good", said the woman "I don't have a computer."
get it?
It's not necessarrily something to be proud of, but I still have the original boxes and printed manuals for Truespace from version 3 and up. I used to take software manuals to school with me so I could get at them whenever there was a free minute, and they where immensely helpful.
I think saying that printed materials are going the way of the dinosaur is a little extreme, Norm, or at least a little premature.
Truespace 7.5 is looking really sweet, way more than what I ever would have expected, and as one of those people like Hoss that gets to enjoy the upgrade at no extra charge, I'm completely in favor of you guys sinking as much of your budget into the actual finished software as possible. Even if it means dropping those lovely printed manuals you guys used to make.
But don't go saying the printed word is obsolete just yet, or I'll have to mail you this in a letter. You guys still have a mailing address? |
Post by prodigy // Feb 28, 2007, 7:42pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Mmmmm.. We have a little problem..
For one side, are customers who wants to get the old way printed manual.. ( i have 2 :) and i love them
I buy the TS7.11 download version, and.... I never.. never ... never read the pdf.. its a little problem problem..
And on the other side we have print those manuals are expensive... And have sense...
Maybe the best option is make limited printed versions of the manual.. for example 100 copies.. or less.. :confused:
Then caligari doesnt loose money with unsaled older manuals and the printed manual fans are happy too..
BUY NOW!! ONLY FEW MANUALS!! hehehehe
A little sense of humor ;)
EDITED: Its not a joke when im talk about it is a good option make a limited printed version... What do you think? |
Post by hoss // Feb 28, 2007, 8:55pm
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hoss
Total Posts: 21
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That's too bad, but I understand. It's just business.
It really wouldn't be too bad if there were a better selection of third-party books out there specific to a current version of trueSpace (NOTHING by R. Shamms Mortier). It's just nice to have something that you can take to work with you to read on your lunchbreak, etc.
Tom- Thank you for the offer, but I do have the printed manual for trueSpace 7 (the biggest trueSpace manual, ever, and I even have the manuls back to Caligari 24 and Caligari Broadcast on the Amiga).
Actually, I wish you would do more offers on your video courses. Not offers like "All trueSpace 7 courses for $XXX.XX," but more a'la carte, as you did some time ago when you offered one course per day over a weekend for $15 or so each course. I know it's a better value to buy the "All for$XXX.XX" specials, but what if only certain courses appeal to me? I actually bought all three courses on that particular weekend special that I mentioned, btw. I think that I learned more from those courses on a topic than by the manual anyway.
-hOss |
Post by MadMouse // Feb 28, 2007, 11:01pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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I would expect that paper manuals will no longer be produced, due to their excessive cost to produce.
Right enough though, the manual won't be reprinted for 7.5.
Well that must mean that the cost of TS7.5 will be considerably less than before. GREAT NEWS! :rolleyes: |
Post by Steinie // Mar 1, 2007, 2:39am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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So you guys are saying that if we want to read the manual before going to bed your throwing in a Laptop too? GREAT!!!
I bought 7.0 without the manual with intentions of printing the PDF. I changed my mind very quickly after see the page numbers. It was cheaper to order the manual from Caligari. I think your heading in the wrong direction here, unless your aware of an underground Author somewhere writing the next 7.5 Bible... |
Post by Steinie // Mar 1, 2007, 2:52am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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...and another thing...go to a Book Store and ask them how many PDFs they have sold lately....:rolleyes: |
Post by prodigy // Mar 1, 2007, 3:06am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Its not a joke when im talk about it is a good option make a limited printed version... What do you think?
I only try to find a posible solution and good for both parts. |
Post by TomG // Mar 1, 2007, 4:06am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Unfortunately Prodigy, it gets worse the lower the number you print. Most of the costs go into the set up for printing, which remains the same whether you print one or ten thousand. That means the more you print, the more economic it becomes, and the less you print, you end up paying about the same for less.
Sometimes you might even pay more, since it costs the printer other business to spend the same time setting up for your 100 run as it does for them to set up for someone else's ten thousand run, so he loses money in some senses.
We understand all the benefits of a printed manual, and it would be great if such a thing were easy to make, and affordable to produce - we too would like an ideal world :) However it is not something we can do at the moment, and our apologies for that.
I don't think you'll be entirely disappointed with the electronic manual though (though we do understand it won't be something you can take with you for those spare moments etc so there will be some uses it doesn't fulfill).
HTH,
Tom |
Post by iBrent // Mar 1, 2007, 7:19am
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iBrent
Total Posts: 102
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How about an audio book for the ts manual? Then you could listen to it on your iPod. ;)
"Hello, this is Norm, I'll be your narrator. Sit back and relax as I read all 798 pages."
:D
iBrent
(I'm joking, of course) |
Post by Steinie // Mar 1, 2007, 7:48am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Three things would happen...
1) On page 500 the Ipod would give you a message "please change batteries"
2) As a special bonus Norm will also read the French version...
3) For a limited time only Prodigy will also read it to you in English and Spanish at the same time... |
Post by rj0 // Mar 1, 2007, 7:53am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Since the tS 7.0 printed guide exists, why not create a tS 7.5 supplement that details changes from 7.0. Should be considerably smaller than a full guide. That way at least users could 'pull together' a printed set.
rj |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 1, 2007, 9:25am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Come to think of it, I always wanted to start my own publishing empire:
http://www.lulu.com/ |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 1, 2007, 9:44am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Oh, no, no, no... I don't like what I've just read here. No printed manual for TrueSpace 7.5. Caligari, that's a huge mistake. I don't know how many pages the manual will have but I'm betting it's going to be huge. I'm not a fan of PDF manuals, not at all. I don't mind PDF for small documents, 20, 30, 40 pages (and that's even pushing it for me), but hundreds of pages...
When I invested in a copy of the student version of Lightwave 8, I got a PDF manual. It's over 1000 pages long!!! After two weeks, I had read ten pages! That was it for me, I forked out the extra cash and got myself the printed manual. I read the printed manual, cover to cover, in less then a month! If I had of stuck with the PDF version, I'd still be at the beginning of it.
You can't ditch the printed manual. The printed manual can be taken to bed, you can write notes on it, place sticky papers on it to bookmark important pages, and it's a lot easier to read then sitting in front of your computer scrolling through a 500+ page PDF document. If it raises the prices of ordering TrueSpace, so be it. I'll happily pay the extra money to have a printed manual. I'll be moving up from TrueSpace 5.1 to TrueSpace 7.5 and if a PDF is the only manual I'll get, it will take me years to make the move over from 5.1. You really do need to reconsider this! |
Post by Norm // Mar 1, 2007, 10:19am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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Everyone have a say is cool. It will all get read and weighted.
Electronic is very versatile. Nice color images, ability to zoom-in and out as desired, depending on monitor and of course condition of eyes :)
Printers today are pretty good for printing nice pages. Like Tom mentions, somewhere there is a break-even point that suggests it just isn't viable to produce a manual. Perhaps one day the technology would allow us to supply a file that some book publisher could use to print you a copy of manual for such'n'such a price.
For some, video tutorials are the ticket to how they learn best. Then how about these forums? Users helping users. Pretty neat place if you stand back and check out the overall scenario. Great group of users here.
Lots of ways to learn. Which ones are viable? |
Post by Colfax // Mar 1, 2007, 11:30am
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Colfax
Total Posts: 49
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Which ways to learn are viable?
Well, short of beaming the data directly into my brain so that I'm a fourth degree blackbelt in the art of Caligarate and TrueSpace-Fu in seconds flat. Then I'm rendering up some bricks and bustin' them with my scripted flying kicks. Then I'm throwing away my printed manuals and my printer while I'm at it, cause I can learn 3D methods while I'm sleeping, and hell then I might as well be sleeping all the time. Can you guys get on that technology?
I'm getting carried away here.
If you're really going to commit to not printing the Truespace Manual, then you should at least commit yourselves to making the help/documentation as monitor friendly as possible. I guess a more radical suggestion would be to design the manual and it's pages in a 4:3 or 16:9 ratio like most desktop and laptop screens are. There's no real reason to have to scroll the page.
A more practical request, however, would be that you make sure you have a robust ability to search the documentation. Things like clickable contents, indexes, and bookmarks would be great. Basically, if you don't intend to print it, please don't hand us a help file that suggests in every way that it would be better if it was printed. |
Post by i_maker // Mar 1, 2007, 11:37am
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i_maker
Total Posts: 156
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This is horrifying news: no manual for ts7.5???
I have learnt all I kow about ts by reading the manuals (ts4.3 upward), never by using the help menu.
Norm, there are indeed many ways to learn a software. By taking away the manual, you are reducing the number of ways by a major one! |
Post by Alien // Mar 1, 2007, 12:28pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Printed manuals are going the way of the dinosaur.
ts7.5 will be PDF only manual. I would expect that paper manuals will no longer be produced, due to their excessive cost to produce.
What if you did them on a pre-order basis? IOW, work out how much it would cost to make X number of them, & only have them made if you reached the pre-order quota - if not you could just refund those that had pre-ordered.
Come to think of it, I always wanted to start my own publishing empire:
http://www.lulu.com/
I was thinking the same thing, though from reading through their site it seems like they have max of 800 pages, so maybe Caligari could split it into 2 or more volumes.
Since the tS 7.0 printed guide exists, why not create a tS 7.5 supplement that details changes from 7.0. Should be considerably smaller than a full guide. That way at least users could 'pull together' a printed set.
That was going to be my other idea, but you beat me to it. If they just made an update, stuff that wasn't covered in the manual for 7.0, perhaps that could squeeze down to no more than 800 pages, then maybe they could release that through Lulu. The bonus of that would be that Caligari wouldn't have to spend any of its money, & could actually earn some.
Like Tom mentions, somewhere there is a break-even point that suggests it just isn't viable to produce a manual.
Yeah, but if you guys just put together the manual/supplement & uploaded it to Lulu, it wouldn't cost Caligari anything, thereby removing the question of viability.
Perhaps one day the technology would allow us to supply a file that some book publisher could use to print you a copy of manual for such'n'such a price.
It's already here: Lulu.com.
Oh, BTW, as it won't make any difference to you, can we PLEASE have an option to have a version with colour pictures? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/beg.gif |
Post by Emma // Mar 1, 2007, 12:46pm
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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Personally I normaly say that a book is necessary. For trueSpace 7 I tryd printout of the PDF file first time and must say that it was much better than the original book. Reason is I could make a printout double sided in full colour on an A4 size paper. The paper and ink I needed were 25 Euro which is not more expensive than buying the original book. It took it's time for printout though. There are stores where you can get a printout of PDF files here in Germany if you don't/can't print by yourself. Is this different in other places ? |
Post by Colfax // Mar 1, 2007, 1:21pm
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Colfax
Total Posts: 49
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There are definitely alot of inexpensive options for personal printing. And I think those that want to hold the manual in their hands badly enough (including me) will find a way that works for them.
I'm willing to bet that there is enough of a difference between TS7.11 and TS7.5 that entire sections of the current manual will no longer apply. I think trying to print a supplemental guide could be very confusing, though not impossible. |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 1, 2007, 4:16pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I would like the print ver, but, No Problem....just PLEASE get rid of the html screen to "read the manual now" after you have already elected to do so...it IS anoying and it IS slow.Is it also possible to link the DG with the AG in the future? BTW thanks for trueSpace everyone:) ! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 1, 2007, 6:38pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I think doing away with the printed manual is a great idea. I've always found that the manual was a confusing and frustrating way to learn TS, much better for just reference. And if it's going to save us all money in the long run then that's definitely a positive.
For learning I found the video courses MUCH better since they allowed me to step through the processes along with the author. Pause button is your friend. :D
And like was said, the forums here are a tremendous resource as well.
Granted it would be nice if the PDF was a bit more monitor friendly... we need to quantify what "monitor friendly" really means though...
I also think some video tutorial files should be included with TrueSpace 7.5. Maya did that, and it really helped me get up to speed very quickly.
As far as a good TS 7.5 book goes one of us is gonna have to write it. Might be a good way to make some money. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 2, 2007, 1:51am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I'm with j-edwards - do away with the printed manual. Here's my reasoning:
1 - Hello! It's 2007! One of the major advantages of computers is that they do away with the need for paper, thus saving trees and the environment. I'm all for the paperless society. Paper, like clay tablets, was handy at the time but shouldn't we be moving on now?
2 - I got a printed manual with tS 5.1 - I read it from cover to cover over the space of a couple of days to get an overview of the softwares abilities (I had upgraded from tS 2.3. Then I put it on the shelf and it's been there collecting dust ever since - the PDF manual is far more useful because I have my PC on anyway, it just requires opening another window and even better it's in colour! Especially since I acquired a second computer the need for a printed manual has completely gone. Having the manual open on one machine whilst running tS on the other is, (for me anyway) easily preferable to lugging a book around.
3 - By NOT providing a printed manual Caligari must be able to reduce the cost of tS7.5 which is good, no make that great, news for those of us on limited budgets.
I've never used any video tutorials. Everything I've learned came from the PDF manual, the forums and trial and error rendering. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 2, 2007, 3:00am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Yeap.. Good points..
Once you read your manual.. your left behind...
And other on my case.. Ts5 and Ts6 manuals are most like equals, only with few diferent pages.. i not read both manuals completly.. only the first..
And the most important you save a tree...
but you still using paper on your bathroom.. :rolleyes:
We can use a PDF on the bath on that dificult moments????? :D
HAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAH |
Post by Alien // Mar 2, 2007, 3:28am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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....just PLEASE get rid of the html screen to "read the manual now" after you have already elected to do so...it IS anoying and it IS slow.
Why not just create a shortcut to the .pdf file & put it somewhere convenient, e.g. on your QuickLaunch bar on the Windows taskbar?
3 - By NOT providing a printed manual Caligari must be able to reduce the cost of tS7.5 which is good, no make that great, news for those of us on limited budgets.
Caligari have always [or at least for the last few years] offered 3 options: download only with PDF, CD only with PDF, & full boxed v. with printed manual, with the last option carrying the higher price to cover the cost of the manual. It's not going to cost Caligari any more or less to make a version without a manual than it did to make 1 before the decided to remove the printed option. |
Post by Emma // Mar 2, 2007, 3:38am
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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...One of the major advantages of computers is that they do away with the need for paper..
Yes that is indeed a fact that can not be stopped anymore. But still, it will take generations until one learns from childhood on to read from a screen instead a sheet of paper.
One disadvantage though should not be forgotten. The attached picture is small part from a book published by Diderot around 1790. Still can hold it in my hand, read it. It will last for more then next few hundred of years if I will not throw it in the trash can.
But this also shows the two sides, programs are changing in short periods, so changes are happening to often to publish a whole book for it every time, not only for costs, also for environment as clearly said above. What would it help to have a book if no one is left to read it. The tornado who just all of a suddon did make a big damage in the USA today is a clear sign I think. |
Post by stan // Mar 2, 2007, 5:35am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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As far as a good TS 7.5 book goes one of us is gonna have to write it. Might be a good way to make some money. ;)
then wouldn't it be better if Caligari wrote it?
as for a paperless society that won't happen any time soon, actually more paper gets used by computers than before they existed..
I'm for a hard copy of the manual, but only when TS 8.0 comes out, like with every major upgrade :D |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 2, 2007, 6:10am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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The Caligari guys/gals are already writing it I'm sure, as there are many revisions to make before the PDF copy is released with 7.5..no use in writing it yourself.....btw @ wizard and co...(you love debates :)) Hello!, we are using a computer for hours that runs on electricity....we are destoying the environment. If we had a shiny printed manual and were reading that juicy thing, our computers would/could be off...in the end we are still ruining the environment. Don't go down that "saving tree's" road it's just shameful.(good morning btw) |
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