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The new gallery???
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The new gallery??? // Roundtable
Post by 2much4U // Mar 2, 2007, 1:39pm
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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It's been 2 days since the beginning of March, and yet there still has been no sign of the new gallery. Is there going to be one, and, if not, am I allowed to re-submit my entry for next month?
Just curious.:D |
Post by Steinie // Mar 2, 2007, 5:29pm
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Steinie
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They usually post the first 5-10 days depending on how busy they are. Not posting our stuff is a good sign! I'm sure the Gallery is not their main focus right now. |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2007, 6:02pm
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TomG
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An answer to this question will be appearing at an email inbox near you soon ;)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 2much4U // Mar 2, 2007, 6:11pm
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2much4U
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OK, thanX!:banana: |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2007, 6:34pm
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TomG
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For those who havent got the email yet, the news is now live on site too:
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS7/Brochure/FebGallery_announcement.asp
The results will in fact be announced live in our 3D gallery tomorrow, 2PM PST (Saturday March 3rd). Roman will be there. Right now the gallery still shows Zachary Humway's work, the gallery results will be unveiled in the same truePlace location tomorrow, so drop by that link tomorrow after 2pm PST and you'll get a first glimpse of the results.
The regular 2D pages will go live at the same time too of course. Should be fun!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by 2much4U // Mar 2, 2007, 6:38pm
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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Ummm........my entry was an animation. Are they separate, or will they be found in the same place? |
Post by TomG // Mar 2, 2007, 10:07pm
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TomG
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Animation gallery will be launched on the 2D web pages at the same time as the image gallery is launched - the animations won't be included in the 3D gallery space, since you can't watch them with others in the same space at the same time (at the moment).
So to see the animation results, just check the web pages at 2pm PST tomorrow :) Don't let that stop you dropping in to the 3D space at the same time!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 3, 2007, 4:27pm
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W!ZARD
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I was unable to attend this event because it was at a particularly inconvenient time for me. Saturday 14:00 (2 pm) PST is Sunday 11:00 (11 am) for me. Additionally, my PC with TP installed is currently involved in a long render :( .
Can someone who did attend give us a report of the event? It appears there was no actual 1st prize awarded.
Congratulations to those who were selected for the gallery.
Does Robert Plante use these forums? I really liked his edge of the world picture and would be very interested to know how he made it.
Thanks in advance
WZRD :) |
Post by Steinie // Mar 3, 2007, 4:41pm
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Steinie
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I had Guest over so could not attend the big event. Checking it out tonight and my jaw hit the ground...NO WINNER?!!! Let me get this straight send out emails to everyone to check out cool new truePlace content with Roman in attendance and NO winner? That took guts. You guys never cease to amaze me...
Did anyone attend and could you fill us in on what was said? |
Post by prodigy // Mar 3, 2007, 5:08pm
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prodigy
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Well well well...
I wait many ours to be there.. and my wife toldme we have a birthday.. and we must go.. Bad new, with my submision on the month gallery..
I came, ready to see who is the winner and 2nd place.. and.. incredibly.. theres no 1st or 2nd place...
WHATS HAPPEND HERE?!?!?!?!?!?! PICK YOUR DOG AS THE WINNER IF YOU DONT LIKE ANY RENDER!!! BUT PICK SOMETHING!!! :confused:
Whats happend... I recive a mail to join on trueplace THE FIRST TIME!! to pick a winner and discuse ... AND THERES NO A WINNER!?!?!?!??!
nananana.. OP!!! i found a screw... Anybody are looking a screw???
In spanish this we said.. "TENGO CARA DE BOBO O QUE??"
in english can be.. "I HAD A DUMB FACE OR WHAT??"
sorry, but its incredible... i dont know how many people be on that "presentation" ... but this is the worst thing i ever seen... EVER!! |
Post by Steinie // Mar 3, 2007, 5:17pm
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Steinie
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You know what I thought when I saw the gallery results? A person breaking a bottle of champagne on the front of a brand new Ship and the Ship sinks.:( |
Post by prodigy // Mar 3, 2007, 5:34pm
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Im laughing when i see this banner..
4669
Realy i dont want to make a battle here.. but i still imagine what roman said today at 2pm..
Well... mmmm..... yeap.... no.... mmmmm.... ehem.... cof cof... sorry...
MMMM....haaa....... yea.. i know... mmmmmm... can be.....
I have a final result...
Theres no winners....
Bye. thanks for coming and the last, be sure close any back doors.. |
Post by iBrent // Mar 3, 2007, 5:41pm
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But how do you really feel Steinie? :D
They haven't picked a winner lots of times, so it's not too surprising it didn't happen today, though they did make a big deal about the unveiling.
I know that Madmouse and others were talking with Roman about the criteria for picking a winner. I didn't hear the conversation, but that was what was being texted about. So I can only imagine that we'll hear more about this from Caligari themselves.
Personally, I think it would help to know what they expect to see in a "Winning" entry, but I get the impression they don't want to "limit" the entries by setting standards on it.
iBrent |
Post by TomG // Mar 3, 2007, 6:10pm
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TomG
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Hi all,
There are times when we don't pick a winner - you can check back through galleries and find this is the case, it happens every so often, maybe once every 4 months or so. This happens when no image is felt to be good enough to count as winner.
Independently of the results, we decided this month we would unveil the results live. And it happened that this was one of those months where there was no winner.
So choices - one is that we could have picked a winner when we wouldn't have picked one if we hadn't been doing an unveiling, but that would have gone against the principles of the competition and just said "Better have a winner because this is our first live unveiling".
But we weren't going to change the contest for the live unveiling - the results were the results.
So the other choice would be to stop the live unveiling just because of how the results came out, to not do what we had planned because the results didn't fit the perfect ideal for a launch. But then this is a contest, and the unveiling is about being part of the regular events in the contest, so that this isn't a sham event just staged to look good, but a genuine community event with all the unknowns that go with such things.
So we modified neither side, and just presented reality as it unfolded.
So that is why no winner, and yet still a live unveiling. It was a good fun event though, I think those who were there enjoyed it, I know I always enjoy meeting people, and people seem to enjoy getting a change to talk in person with Roman, so I think it was very worthwhile!
There was a good discussion about the judging methods of the contest between MadMouse and Roman, about whether there should be more criteria posted for "what makes a winning image", I was on text chat only though for today so missed out on most of that.
There may be other such events in the future too, so keep an eye out for those!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by prodigy // Mar 3, 2007, 6:24pm
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prodigy
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Tom..
As a friend said.. you are "politically Correct"
I think Caligari allways start with a wrong foot..
When Trueplace be launched.. be on friday or saturday i cant remember.. we recive an e-mail and when we enter (many people) to see what offer trueplace.. the trueplace doesnt work, only we can chat and we cant use trueplace untill the next monday.. (Btw.. you dont imagine how many anger people i heard on that chat that night..)
Yes.. its true are lot of moths without a winner.. but why you meet many people, and put a banner "Roman annunces result" .. on the website.. if caligari knows thers no a winner??? What result.. ???
ITs like someone are laughing on my face..
Yes.. Choose a winner forced for me is the best option.... you make the people happy..
But allways caligari choose the hardway.. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 3, 2007, 6:42pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Hi all,
There are times when we don't pick a winner - you can check back through galleries and find this is the case, it happens every so often, maybe once every 4 months or so. This happens when no image is felt to be good enough to count as winner.
Independently of the results, we decided this month we would unveil the results live. And it happened that this was one of those months where there was no winner.
So choices - one is that we could have picked a winner when we wouldn't have picked one if we hadn't been doing an unveiling, but that would have gone against the principles of the competition and just said "Better have a winner because this is our first live unveiling".
But we weren't going to change the contest for the live unveiling - the results were the results.
So the other choice would be to stop the live unveiling just because of how the results came out, to not do what we had planned because the results didn't fit the perfect ideal for a launch. But then this is a contest, and the unveiling is about being part of the regular events in the contest, so that this isn't a sham event just staged to look good, but a genuine community event with all the unknowns that go with such things.
So we modified neither side, and just presented reality as it unfolded.
So that is why no winner, and yet still a live unveiling. It was a good fun event though, I think those who were there enjoyed it, I know I always enjoy meeting people, and people seem to enjoy getting a change to talk in person with Roman, so I think it was very worthwhile!
There was a good discussion about the judging methods of the contest between MadMouse and Roman, about whether there should be more criteria posted for "what makes a winning image", I was on text chat only though for today so missed out on most of that.
There may be other such events in the future too, so keep an eye out for those!
Thanks!
Tom
lol! (shakes head) |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 3, 2007, 7:51pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Not a stellar PR move to open the gallery with no winner, but it does reflect a degree of integrity that I personally can appreciate. Would have been more impressive with a winner and fireworks and a gold frame or whatever, but "it is what it is".
I was only able to hear about 3/4 of the conversation between Roman and Madmouse. The gist I got from the discussion was that there are many well modelled objects with good lighting and texturing but that Roman is also looking for an artistic idea or context for the image that evokes emotion. So I think we see that it is not simply a contest of the best modeller, lighting, composition, nor demonstration of trueSpace abilities but a combination of all things with a driving idea or emotional content too. Maybe I get this right or wrong as the process is undoubtedly subjective due to the fact that we're all human.
Absence of a winner indicates that Roman believes the entries lacked a certain quality necessary for that status, even if the image and it's elements were quite good. The decision is solely made by him.
Personally, I very much liked Prodigy's watches.
Another topic that came up was a question regarding the amount of post processing steps allowed. For instance, if someone does a lot of post steps in photoshop, at what point is the artwork no longer considered a trueSpace image for the sake of the contest. Once again, it seems this is a category where no simple answer can be given.
I personally would imagine it would be somewhere within the limits as shown in Zachary Humway's Rendering Emotions course. Basically when photoshop is used to add artistic effect to an image rather than disguise a deficiency in the original rendering. All this is my own take on things though and the real answer seems to be that there's no hard and fast answer.
Anyway, these are my own impressions and my own words so take them for whatever worth (or lack thereof) you deem proper.
P.K. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 3, 2007, 8:36pm
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Jack Edwards
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Even though truePlay isn't really something that interests me, I think having Roman discus the gallery results and do an unveiling is a great and very cool idea and I commend Caligari for it. It'd be great if the presentation could be recorded and made available at a later date. Maybe just to ProTeam at first and then the broader community as the kinks are worked out?
Anycase y'all lets go a bit easier on the guys over at Caligari -- They are software developers trying out risky innovative and new ideas, not professional publicists. :p
-Jack. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 3, 2007, 9:13pm
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ProfessorKhaos
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A quick note on the web based image gallery. Still shows January 07 at the top of the page instead of February 07. Animation gallery looks good. Would love to see more entries over there of course but then I've not contributed animations yet. :) |
Post by MadMouse // Mar 4, 2007, 2:23am
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Total Posts: 1069
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Well I was there and yes I spoke to Roman at length about the criteria he uses to select the winning images.
To be honest I found his answer's tended to contradict himself somewhat.
When asked how he selected the images he said that it was more down to artistic merit than technical ability and told me that my work is sometimes hindered but the fact my modelling is so good?????:confused: Go figure. He told me he would prefer a scene with 500 polygons with excellent lighting and mood than one with 500000 polygons that was just a well executed project.
I suggested that if this was the case then Caligari needed to alter the 'blurb' on what Caligari is looking for :-'We are looking for animations and images that make the most of our software's capabilities, and present them in an eye-pleasing manner.' to a more accurate line i.e. 'We are looking for images and animations that convey a mood or emotion and technical ability should be no barrier to being selected as the winning image'.
He said that he would get Tom G to look into this and I believe Tom answered by text that he would try to.
I also tried to pin Roman down on his thoughts of the recent spell of winning images that appear to be heavily retouched (photoshopped) I tried to get him to explain why an image that is only maybe 40% TS should beat a image that is obviously made entirely in TS, the image I used as an example is Prodigy's excellent render of a watch which although was considered the best of the bunch this month, it was not considered good enough to warrant a win. Sadly on this matter Roman was IMHO was very vague and basically his answer was,'how can really tell how much is TS and how much is retouching and at the end of the day art it art'???
To be honest I'm still a little disappointed that my recent submissions (which I consider to be my best work ever) have been put aside on the grounds that they were to well modeled and not 'moody' enough or carried enough emotion!!!
It was a good event even without a winner and it is very refreshing to be able to speak directly to the 'big boss man' (you try having a chat with Bill Gates about Vista and see how far you get:) )
HTH
Steve
P.S. please understand that this is from memory and may not contain exact quotes (I've been asleep since then :D ) |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 4, 2007, 4:45am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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How fascinating! It's certainly not my intention to tell Roman how to run his very own little contest - I figure that it's his gallery so it's appropriate that he runs it as he see's fit.
It should be noted that as a trueSpace artist, I prefer polygon-intensive pictures - that's my style. I also believe that in recent galleries I've contributed far better pictures than anything I've done before. I've entered two or more images in the last three monthly contests, a three month period in which there has been only one winner!
I'm a little appalled at any suggestion that the number of polygons involved can be seen as a criteria for artistic merit. After all one can easily render alpha-masked billboard images of massively heavy models and have a final render with only 3 or four polygons. The thought that I've been potentially passed over because I use too many polygons ... well I'm not sure where to put that!
Does this mean that I should change my entire approach to the artwork I make for entering the monthly galleries so as the reduce the poly count? Or should I just keep producing fair to excellent high-polycount images and supplying it to Caligari's gallery where it can be used to promote their product with no possibility of winning any form of compensatory prize?
Several of my recent submissions to the monthly gallery (which were potentially overlooked due to being very poly heavy) have been both highly received elsewhere and have been selected for display at online locations with reasonably high casual hit rates (SciFi.coms gallery just before last xmas and Renderositys poser forum Staff Picsl ast month. My pictures also feature from time to time in the 3dcommune weekly newsletter). Each of these images is in effect a free advertisment for Caligari as I always enthusiastically promote and endorse Caligari's product - with every one of the half million polygons in each scene.
Feedback from these and other venues ensures that I am aware that my art does in fact convey emotional significance and artistic value that is totally unrelated to the polygon count.
I am aware that I'm reacting to my own interpretation of Romans words and intentions as filtered through Madmouses post and that, like in the game of Chinese whispers, it's quite possible that specific meanings have been lost or corrupted.
Thus I would like some further clarification on this issue if possible. I spend too much time each month making pictures for Romans gallery to want to feel like that time is wasted because my artistic style leans toward high polycount scenes. This is even more accentuated given that there has been only 1 winner in the past 3 months - a three month period where I've produced 8 or 9 images for the Calligari Gallery. I'm now wondering if been wasting my time? |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 4, 2007, 4:45am
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jamesmc
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Lighting eh? There are 2.5D programs out there that have very easy cheesey lighting programs. This telescope is an unfinished project I did in a 39.00 dollar program. Still working on the studio room. It uses lighting too. :D
Here all along I thought ...well who cares what I think...heh
No wire frames to offer and I suppose I could have submitted this a long time ago to Caligari contest. It needs some touching up, could have made a few parts in tS to call it legit. heh |
Post by Steinie // Mar 4, 2007, 5:01am
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Steinie
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W!zard,
Are you saying that you approach your work with the Gallery in mind? The second we start doing that our STYLE changes and that would be a pity. I gave up trying to please the Judge long ago. Now you know why my work is almost never seen. Years ago I cared and it bugged the heck out of me. I stopped coming to these forums and said heck with you all. Then I realize why I use TS to begin with and pleasing the "Judge" was the LAST thing I used TS for. There are other avenues to display your work and like I say all the time Have Fun.
The final destination isn't the reward, the trip is. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 4, 2007, 5:03am
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prodigy
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Yea.. i like to see the last winners wireframe scene..
I PAY FOR THAT.. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 4, 2007, 5:08am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Prodigy that could also be an entry in the under two hour modeling time too!:rolleyes: |
Post by MadMouse // Mar 4, 2007, 5:19am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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I'm a little appalled at any suggestion that the number of polygons involved can be seen as a criteria for artistic merit. After all one can easily render alpha-masked billboard images of massively heavy models and have a final render with only 3 or four polygons. The thought that I've been potentially passed over because I use too many polygons ... well I'm not sure where to put that In Roman's defense... he did not say that a high poly count was necessarily a bad thing but if an image had a low polygon count and conveyed more emotion that one with a higher count or better technical ability then the low poly would win.
I am aware that I'm reacting to my own interpretation of Romans words and intentions as filtered through Madmouses post and that, like in the game of Chinese whispers, it's quite possible that specific meanings have been lost or corrupted. Indeed... I really hope that Roman will add a few words of his own to this discussion so we can hear his opinions 'straight from the horses mouth' and not just as I can remember them.
Are you saying that you approach your work with the Gallery in mind? The second we start doing that our STYLE changes and that would be a pity. I gave up trying to please the Judge long ago. Now you know why my work is almost never seen. Years ago I cared and it bugged the heck out of me. I stopped coming to these forums and said heck with you all. Then I realize why I use TS to begin with and pleasing the "Judge" was the LAST thing I used TS for. There are other avenues to display your work and like I say all the time Have Fun.
The final destination isn't the reward, the trip is. Well said Sir, well said!!! |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 4, 2007, 5:27am
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jamesmc
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Hate to say I told you so. I remember when I got blasted for commenting on a winner of a contest from that ski slope entry. It was basically a cylinder and a lot of PhotoShop.
I am a member of other forums and trust me, there are some 2D artists that would put entries submitted to Caligari contests to shame.
Does that mean they should be allowed to a 3D contest with 99 percent of the work done in PhotoShop or Illustrator and 1 percent tS?
And the old rule applies, if you can't animate it and see all sides of it, it ain't a 3D rendering.
Yeah, I know - the Point of View thing. Isn't one of the purposes of 3D art is that one can create multiple points of view?
Perhaps I'm just too honest and refuse to enter something that isn't done entirely in trueSpace, sans texturing and post effects that tS cannot do. In fact, displaying decently made 3D objects is the reason I haven't submitted anything to Caligari's contests.
I still go back to the premise of judging 3D art on the fact that the majority of it is 3D and not simply a prop to be plugged into a 2D scene.
But hey, what do I know?
I'm sure there will others following this post to tell me what I should know. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 4, 2007, 5:37am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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W!zard,
Are you saying that you approach your work with the Gallery in mind?
I'm not sure how to answer this question Steinie. Yes I do have the monthly gallery in mind to a certain extent. As an invalid with a very limited income winning software upgrades in any online contest is a definite incentive for me. I have several good software packages that I've won this way so the potential to win a prize is a significant motivating factor. I also enjoy the self-imposed sense of having a deadline to work towards.
Does this affect the way I work or the artistic outcome I strive for? No, except in the sense that it encourages me to always try to do better - which I would do regardless of any contests.
I've always had an active imagination and an artistic streak and have explored music, photography and visual art since I was very young. Heck I grew up and live in Middle Earth! In my wrtings, my music, my photography and painting and now my '3d' art I always aim to show reality through a definite fantasy filter (which is not everyones cup of tea). The images I make must be congruent with the images I see in my mind - which is why I don't model watches or supercars.
If Roman started awarding prizes for pictures because they contained ...say, big breasted Poser babes I would not start using big breasted Poser babes in my artwork because they would not be congruent with my 'vision'. (God I hope that doesn't sound too pretentious!).
Ultimately the only judge I aim to please is myself. As you so sagely point out, the journey itself is the goal and it's definitely all about fun. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 4, 2007, 5:41am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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...If Roman started awarding prizes for pictures because they contained ...say, big breasted Poser babes I would not start using big breasted Poser babes in my artwork because they would not be congruent with my 'vision'. (God I hope that doesn't sound too pretentious!)...
Yeah but I bet they would get a lot of views. :D
btw, check this out...This is a perfect example of what I think 3D should be in artistry and animation. It also qualifies on the big breasted...er you know what I mean. :D
http://amfilms.hash.com/search/entry.php?entry=911
youngun's avert thine eyes! |
Post by MadMouse // Mar 4, 2007, 5:46am
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I have IM-ed Roman and asked if he could enter this conversation to put his own point across in his own words and not just what I can remember.
Maybe we should all try to keep an open mind until he has answered.
(crikey! do you ever get the feeling you should just keep your big mouse hole shut:D ) |
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