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Truespace 7.5, First Impressions?, Renders?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Truespace 7.5, First Impressions?, Renders? // Roundtable
Post by spyfrog // May 11, 2007, 11:56pm
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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This new interface is a bit overwhelming for a newbie coming from TS 6.6.
Can we perhaps hope for a new spirit of the interface video?
I would really need a guide to it. |
Post by holm // May 13, 2007, 5:26am
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holm
Total Posts: 33
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Hi again,
not a nice image but a screenshot from my first rigged model in Truespace 7.5 . It's a model from Quidam character creation software. Completely rigged in TS 7.5 and with use of weight painting.
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/Quidam-TS75.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Quidam-TS75.jpg) |
Post by roman // May 13, 2007, 10:50am
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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As I 'play' in 7.5, the thought occurs to me that Roman is a genius! How many times have you seen people write, "What happened to my favorite XYZ tool?" pertaining to a programs major upgrade. No worries - in 7.5 you get to have your cake and eat it too! The 'Model' side houses all your favorite tools, so if you get 'lost' in Workspace, you can always press the 'Model' Tab and bingo - back to the comfort zone of familiar surroundings. You can learn the new stuff of 'Workspace' at your leisure, and the new tools in Workspace are outstanding! This combination of Old and New is uniquely suited to a very easy learning curve - I don't think I know of any other software that has ever done this. Absolutely Outstanding!!Just about time someone mentioned that!:)
Holm, congratulation of what seems to be the first rigged character on TS Forum! Other than Beta guys of course. |
Post by Methusela // May 13, 2007, 7:13pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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Ah, I've been making and rigging a character (Watch the WIP forums over the next day or two, and you'll see him there!) by way of learning 7.5 (also as part of a demo reel for a job I'm trying for!) and I've lost track of the number of times I've gone back to model side to find the new tools. Simply fantastic stuff. It's been smooth and streamlined the whole way. (I crashed TS twice, but that was my own fault for missing while adding some edges.)
Like I said though, the transition couldn't be smoother than it is now. And I'll post my character in WIP just as soon as he's ready for his public! |
Post by Mike // May 13, 2007, 7:33pm
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Mike
Total Posts: 121
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What would a tS release be without some screwy sphere renderings?
Here you go, from today. :) |
Post by Solomon // May 14, 2007, 5:38am
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Solomon
Total Posts: 30
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mike those are nice renders - and all that is V-Ray or is that the native renderer? |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 9:29am
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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First Impressions ? tS as it should be!
Thanks Caligari! Thanks Paul for that VERY useable interface, I felt comfortable with the look and feel of the gui right away.
Paul deserves a lot of credit for creating a very usable interface, but as I mentioned in my trueSpace7.5 First Impressions (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2855) thread, t could use a little polish. I took Paul's general look & feel and tried to create a tighter, more consistent GUI style yesterday, and I'll post the results of my attempt when I get home from the office in a few hours. I've kept (more or less) the same color scheme and layout, and spent some time polishing the buttons and cleaning up the bar gradients to give them a bit more consistency. A lot of it was redesigning the buttons from the previous tS7.x releases so that they feature the same look and feel throughout the program, and rounding out a few edges that, considering that the buttons all seem to be bitmap images, is maybe something that could have been considered earlier on in the GUI design process.
Again, I'm not knocking what Paul's done - it's a great improvement over previous tS7.x versions - I'm just trying to take it a few logical steps farther along, and adding some standard GUI features that are missing, like rollovers for all buttons, tabs and scrollbars to provide the user with more feedback from the program, basically lots of little usability touches I feel are missing overall.
This is the kind of stuff I've got to deal with all day when I'm working, so it was nice to do it for fun for a program I really enjoy using so that I can, hopefully, help improve an already great product - and how often do you see CEOs of 3D application companies posting in their own forums? It's great to know you're comments will be seen, so hopefully Roman & Co. will like some of what I've done and be able to adapt it for general use - or maybe someone with more experience scripting in tS7 than I have could work with me to implement the interface and offer it is a viable alternative?
It would be great to have access to the layered Photoshop files used to create the tool icons so I could update the backgrounds on those as well in my goal to polish things up...maybe they could be made available? |
Post by splinters // May 14, 2007, 10:09am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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First, thanks for the kind words but the UI design is only partially down to me, Roman and Oliver Rohe (as well as many others) decided colour scheme, while we all chipped in with layout, workflow etc. and I have never seen a UI that was transformed so radically by tester input.
I can only take credit for the icons and workspace cursors really although a few of my UI suggestions did eventually make it in. This really is a beta group joint effort and that is not some cheesy 'modesty' line...it really is true.
As for icons, they are not layered (although I do have a huge PSD file with ALL tS 7/7.5 icons in there) and they remain the property of Caligari. If Roman said distribute them then I would but they workspace icons are 32bit BMP's with alpha channels. Nice and clean. tS7.0 icons in this dark UI would show artefacts.
I can however share the icon creation techniques for anyone who wants to make custom icons and keep the look of the UI, but as they are coded now-I am not sure they would work.
I would love to see your take on the UI by the way. |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 10:47am
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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First, thanks for the kind words but the UI design is only partially down to me, Roman and Oliver Rohe (as well as many others) decided colour scheme, while we all chipped in with layout, workflow etc. and I have never seen a UI that was transformed so radically by tester input.
I can only take credit for the icons and workspace cursors really although a few of my UI suggestions did eventually make it in. This really is a beta group joint effort and that is not some cheesy 'modesty' line...it really is true.
As for icons, they are not layered (although I do have a huge PSD file with ALL tS 7/7.5 icons in there) and they remain the property of Caligari. If Roman said distribute them then I would but they workspace icons are 32bit BMP's with alpha channels. Nice and clean. tS7.0 icons in this dark UI would show artefacts.
I can however share the icon creation techniques for anyone who wants to make custom icons and keep the look of the UI, but as they are coded now-I am not sure they would work.
I would love to see your take on the UI by the way.
So does that mean if I redesign the background for the tool icons, the actual tool icon images would automagically (yes, I know it's not a real word :)) be overlaid on top?
I'll be home in a couple hours and I'll post what I was working on last night then. I still haven't updated the look of the blue areas of the tool icon palette (those which go on the left/right or top/bottom of the icon palette) or the little resizing handle on the window borders, but I've already mocked up the rest of the interface, including the rollover context for each, so people should be able to get a good idea of what I'm trying to do regardless.
And maybe you can answer this question for me: why can I no longer reposition the navigation widget in the Workspace view? Having it locked to the bottom corner is pretty annoying from a usability perspective, especially considering it could be repositioned in previous tS7.x version. I usually stick it towards the middle of the window because it makes my workflow easier, as I don't have to retreat to the corner of the window all of the time.
And is it just me, or do hotkeys not function in the Workspace view? Another usability issue that's been eating at me since installing tS7.5...
Also, since you were involved in the UI design, maybe you can tell me why when I apply SDS to an object, it shows me all of the polygons that make up the object, but when I got to edit that object, it goes to the newer spline-based preview of the smoothed control cage? I'd really like this to be the default view as opposed to being forced to see the individual polygons (making scene navigation slower by displaying them and making it harder to tell objects apart in a more complex scene with a lot of SDS objects)? Maybe I'm doing something wrong? |
Post by splinters // May 14, 2007, 12:37pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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First question: in theory yes but icons are part of the code now I believe but yes they are 'overlayed'.
Second, hotkeys cannot be the same on model and workspace sides, Tom suggests adding ALT to the model set for instance.
As for Nav widget...not sure why that feature was removed and I also cannot answer about the SDS...:o |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 12:40pm
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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Here's as far as I've gone on the interface polishing - really, just pay attention to the top half of the window. No icons on any windows (didn't want to take the time to recreate them if there was no reason to):
http://www.digital-soapbox.com/dev/1.jpg
I also want to re-build the main window buttons to fit in with the rest of the application's buttons; right now the top edges are too rounded. |
Post by splinters // May 14, 2007, 12:47pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I like it but the small font is kinda hard to read...:o |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 12:58pm
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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I like it but the small font is kinda hard to read...:o
Well, I can always knock it up a point size or two, I just happen to like smaller fonts .:) |
Post by Délé // May 14, 2007, 1:05pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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And maybe you can answer this question for me: why can I no longer reposition the navigation widget in the Workspace view? Having it locked to the bottom corner is pretty annoying from a usability perspective, especially considering it could be repositioned in previous tS7.x version. I usually stick it towards the middle of the window because it makes my workflow easier, as I don't have to retreat to the corner of the window all of the time.
Actually, I personally prefer the widget stay where it is like in 7.5. I was accidentally moving it all the time when I tried to rotate before. That annoyed the heck out of me.
If you want to quickly rotate and move the view around I think the middle mouse drag and Ctrl middle mouse drag is loads faster then any widget. :) |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 1:09pm
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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Actually, I personally prefer the widget stay where it is like in 7.5. I was accidentally moving it all the time when I tried to rotate before. That annoyed the heck out of me.
If you want to quickly rotate and move the view around I think the middle mouse drag and Ctrl middle mouse drag is loads faster then any widget. :)
Okay, well, howsabout if you could lock its position so those of us who like to use and move it can do so? :)
And I use a tablet for almost everything, so no middle mouse button, no scroll wheel. Hopefully they'll add in support for the 3DConnexion 3D mouse at some point so I can use that in Workspace, same as I can Model view... |
Post by splinters // May 14, 2007, 1:16pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Hopefully they'll add in support for the 3DConnexion 3D mouse at some point so I can use that in Workspace, same as I can Model view...
Please remain positive but vocal about this...I was beginning to think I was the only one with a 3D connexion device (Space Navigator) collecting dust that is just perfect for navigating workspace...:D
Anyone else with 3D input devices please let yourself be heard. |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // May 14, 2007, 1:20pm
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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Please remain positive but vocal about this...I was beginning to think I was the only one with a 3D connexion device (Space Navigator) collecting dust that is just perfect for navigating workspace...:D
Anyone else with 3D input devices please let yourself be heard.
I've got a Space Pilot and Space Traveler here, and I use them pretty often, even for 2D, as the extra axis helps w/ zoom and the 2D/3D interface of Adobe products like After Effects' 3D camera layer mode. Would LOVE to be able to use it in WorkSpace. While there is a plugin for tS6.x/Model view, it unfortunately isn't possible to record camera movement data with it - which would make the 3D mouse even MORE useful, for developing organic camera paths. If it could work with moving joints in 3D space as well...that would be AWESOME.
:) |
Post by Mike // May 14, 2007, 4:08pm
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Mike
Total Posts: 121
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Thanks!
I should have mentioned that they're VRay.
mike those are nice renders - and all that is V-Ray or is that the native renderer? |
Post by weaveribm // May 14, 2007, 11:18pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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...they're VRay.
Mike is that a Vray version of material emission which isn't a Vray material function in 7.11 please? I might have got that wrong though...
I'd like to use glowing material in 7.5 if possible. Looks possible seeing your shots thanks :)
Nice images very natural textures
Peter |
Post by oroe // May 15, 2007, 12:28am
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oroe
Total Posts: 21
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Here's as far as I've gone on the interface polishing - really, just pay attention to the top half of the window. No icons on any windows (didn't want to take the time to recreate them if there was no reason to):
http://www.digital-soapbox.com/dev/1.jpg
I also want to re-build the main window buttons to fit in with the rest of the application's buttons; right now the top edges are too rounded.
Welcome back you good old trueSpace fighter :)
let me say some words about the UI Design for tS7.5. This was one of the most collaboration prozess in Beta Forum with 440 Thread Entries!!!
I personaly do not like the "Aqua Style" for "longer live" Tools - Everyone use it and if you open a software in 2 or 3 Years everyone know - ah this software was made in 2006-2007 :)
Many People have this Problem with the XSI UI Design - They say "hmmm looks like an older Software so about 1995 - Yes this was "Hip" around 1995 :)
I will show you some Design stages for tS7.5 UI - specialy the windows icons are not the best in the finished Product i also think.
http://www.oroe.de/tS75_ui.jpg
But you also see how similar the finished trueSpace 7.5 looks like in this older Photoshop Screengrab - this is a realy great job!
Caligari have this Icons on the ToDo-List - i'm shure you will see an update about it.
Sorry for my bad english - hope you understand what i mean
Oliver |
Post by Vizu // May 15, 2007, 12:48am
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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My personal Impression !
Why we have a model and a workspace site ? i don´t like the Bridge ;)
Why it is impossible to hide the workspace icons when i am in the model window ?
Is the model site for create the objects and the workspace to see how it looks or for what ?
If yes, than i miss some nice features like looptools, and Hair in the model site (this is modeling features)
Why we havn´t get the slider (to edit the spec, glossyness, transparency etc.) in the materialeditor on workspace site ? this is much more easier to use than a numerical entry. (is it my own feel that the materialeditor is slower on workspace site? )
Why is the function for polymodelingpanel (popup-tools) on right-click on a object disabled in workspace ?
Why is the VRay rendering now in a extra window ? i love it to see the area rendering direct in the workspace.
I could ask and crit much more of 7.5 but my poor english stop me :) |
Post by Steinie // May 15, 2007, 12:58am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Vizu, there is nothing you DO like about TS 7.5? |
Post by Vizu // May 15, 2007, 1:13am
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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hmmm hard to say.
I Hate the workspace ! Yes.
I would like to see the new features that is in the workspace, on modeler site (Hair and Loopfunction and the snapping / steptrace). |
Post by oroe // May 15, 2007, 1:19am
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oroe
Total Posts: 21
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My personal Impression !
Why we have a model and a workspace site ? i don´t like the Bridge ;)
Why it is impossible to hide the workspace icons when i am in the model window ?
Is the model site for create the objects and the workspace to see how it looks or for what ?
If yes, than i miss some nice features like looptools, and Hair in the model site (this is modeling features)
Why we havn´t get the slider (to edit the spec, glossyness, transparency etc.) in the materialeditor on workspace site ? this is much more easier to use than a numerical entry. (is it my own feel that the materialeditor is slower on workspace site? )
Why is the function for polymodelingpanel (popup-tools) on right-click on a object disabled in workspace ?
Why is the VRay rendering now in a extra window ? i love it to see the area rendering direct in the workspace.
I could ask and crit much more of 7.5 but my poor english stop me :)
Vizu :)
i only talk about design not about features :)
For features do not forget that caligari is a smal company with realy realy innovative Ideas. Take a look what you get on new Tools on workspace site. in this smal update time. This is simple amazing. Workspace cannot work without some older features in tS6.6 - this is the reason why you need currently both currently i guess. On the other site you see what is coming if you take alook at the new tools on workspace site. THIS IS the future!
How easy it is to rig a character, how great the 3D Snapping Tools work, How cool the direct manipulation is implemented, how easy i create hairs, how cool the displacement Brush tools work ans so on.... shure all need refinements but take a look about the "easy to use" implementation. This is simple amazing!
Caligari is going a very good way to take a step to the "big guys".
I also take a very critical look at the current implementations and some parts are not for me production ready - but i see the ideas behind and i'm shure - caligari is on the way to be a very cool and professional Software!
ahhhh - ok this are my minds about it :)
Olli |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 1:23am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I can understand Vizu very well. Even when i like some parts of the new functionality i am also unhappy with others
The TS 7.5 toolbar that sticks to Modeler side was mentioned more than once. The modeler also still misses some functionality compared to TS6.6. One of the mayor things i really miss is my double click in the Object Info box to mark a value at once. It slows me down to accurately select the whole value by dragging. Still, these remaining flaws will never been fixed, as i know it is the old core ...
There are also still too much flaws to have a happy feeling when working in the Workspace. It is more battling than working. Lights not hideable in an easy way. Navigation reacts too harsh sometimes. Point edit? Why can't i move a seleced point like i did in TS 6.6? And so on. Is a big list now. And more than one feature is slower or more complicated than in the old architecture.
I hope the currently named issues gets adressed very soon. And hopefully not with a mayor upgrade in one or two years. I need a working and comfortable software to create content. TS 6.6 once was it, besides the Bugs. TS 7.5 isn't it fully yet. But luckily it is at a good road now :) |
Post by Bobbins // May 15, 2007, 1:24am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Why we have a model and a workspace site ? i don´t like the Bridge ;)
Both are required. If you wanted to model in NURBS or (are there any left?) a metaball modelling person then you wouldn't be able to use the Workspace. People ask why not make a COB importer for the Workspace - the Bridge IS a COB importer but isn;t just limited to that simple task, it enables a huge range of extra functionality as well.
Why it is impossible to hide the workspace icons when i am in the model window ?
Some toolbars have icons that are relevant to Workspace and model side so they have to be sticky.
Is the model site for create the objects and the workspace to see how it looks or for what ?
If yes, than i miss some nice features like looptools, and Hair in the model site (this is modeling features)
No, I've spent the past few months in Workspace doing everything from scratch with the Bridge turned off. I've started with a cube and finished with a rigged SDS character. You must know by now that the Model side is dead as far as further development goes. Wishing for hair and looptools in the Model side is just going to disappoint you.
Why we havn´t get the slider (to edit the spec, glossyness, transparency etc.) in the materialeditor on workspace site ? this is much more easier to use than a numerical entry. (is it my own feel that the materialeditor is slower on workspace site? )
Why not modify the aspect for the material editor panels and add sliders? It's not hard and if you want them you can do them. I prefer the numeric entry for the accuracy.
The material editor previews are rendered by VRay which is being looked into for speed issues at the moment. The slow feel to the material editor is possibly linked to this?
Why is the function for polymodelingpanel (popup-tools) on right-click on a object disabled in workspace ?
Don't know. Some design decisions are made in mysterious ways!
Why is the VRay rendering now in a extra window ? i love it to see the area rendering direct in the workspace.
This was in response to all the users requests to be able to save a preview render to file. Having the VRay render in it's own window enables you to go back to it at any point and save it to file. Saved it in JPG format and wanted PNG? No problem! Rendered in Vray, done some more work in Workspace then decided you wanted to save that last render? No problem! |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 1:45am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Some toolbars have icons that are relevant to Workspace and model side so they have to be sticky.
Hmm. Which one? Haven't found one yet that i really would need from the big workspace bar that also appears in modeler. But even when, you can switch to Workspace when you need it, can you?
I would prefer to not having this disturbing Workspace toolbars in Modeler. And so does lots of others :)
Why not modify the aspect for the material editor panels and add sliders? It's not hard and if you want them you can do them. I prefer the numeric entry for the accuracy.
When it's this easy to implement, why isn't it still implemented? I would love to have the old comfortable way: sliders, and with rightclick the numerical aspect ;)
Will dive into LE to have a look how i can add sliders ... |
Post by Bobbins // May 15, 2007, 2:42am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Hmm. Which one?
Generate new space, reset to default context, encapsulate objects (and encapsulate in 3D), flatten history, delete object and copy - plus any Model icons you add to the toolbar yourself. |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 2:48am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Generate new space, reset to default context, encapsulate objects (and encapsulate in 3D), flatten history, delete object and copy - plus any Model icons you add to the toolbar yourself.
1)File-New
2)huh? Why in Modeler?
3) Glue as Child/Sibling. But correct, encapsulate would be one.
4)Polycombiner Plugin. Or switch to Workspace, flatten, switch back
5)DEL
6)i will rarely use Workspace modeling tools in Modeler ;)
I still have the feeling that the Workspace toolbar is just in the way, and not helpful in the modeler ;) |
Post by splinters // May 15, 2007, 3:10am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Not what you are looking for but before I save my 'model' layout as trueSpace6.6, I minimise the workspace toolbars to two little dark dots and drag them into the right hand side of the status bar. Now I don't use model/workspace tabs, I simply switch between my trueSpace 7.5 layout (workspace set up just as I want it) and tS6.6 layout (model side just as I want it) and no toolbars as the minimsed state is remembered.
This is still just one click to switch between the two modes and it works well. Hey, you might even be able to turn the bridge off too. |
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