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TS7.5 Formats
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
TS7.5 Formats // Roundtable
Post by Naes3d // May 26, 2007, 7:47pm
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Naes3d
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I believe the new format for exporting 3D into Photoshop (.U3D I think it is) may help convince newcomers to climb on board. |
Post by transient // May 26, 2007, 9:19pm
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transient
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Yes, Blender's fluid dynamics is sweet. It would be great if someone could script a decent TS7.5 importer for them. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 26, 2007, 10:10pm
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Jack Edwards
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Welcome to the forum v3rd3!
Hope you'll join us in the Speed Model Challenges and start some projects over in the WIP section. It's always cool to get new active members. :)
-Jack. |
Post by parva // May 27, 2007, 1:04am
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parva
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I think Poser has some great uses, i.e. quickly getting a figure to 'pose' or whatever and then export it into something else...
yep, posing in Poser is horrible but I still use Poser 5 to get "base human shapes" to modifiy it further.
It's still faster as if I model the thing with all the details from scratch.
6428 |
Post by Burnart // May 27, 2007, 6:20pm
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Burnart
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I mentioned Poser a few pages back which started a bit of argy-bargy! For what its worth a couple of points - they had HDRI before trueSpace. As well it can do ambient occlusion rendering (as in Parva's render above) - VRAY might I'm not sure, but I don't think tS 7.5 can by itself let alone previous versions. Poser also has a full on morph target system - something tS deperately needs imo. Poser is quite powerful whether or not you like what its users do with it.
I started my earlier post by apologising for being lame by even mentioning Poser - probably a mistake on my part (sorry!) - but I think there coud be something to be gained by opening tS up to the vast array of models - people, creatures, vehicles etc that are out there. Admittedly much of it would be taken care of by good obj import. However, imagine that your a Poser user (let alone a designer with Poser as merely one arrow in your quiver) who wants to get into modelling - what an enticement it would be to know that here was a program that could import and utilise your existing Poser libraries. Also I note a lot of architectural modellers seem to use tS surely they would like to easily import full 3d figures into their scenes instead of relying on cutouts mapped onto planes?
I'm not saying Poser should be high on the list of formats just that its worth considering. Isn't that what Roman was asking for - suggestions? |
Post by kena // May 27, 2007, 7:26pm
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kena
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Yes Burnart, Poser is definatly way ahead of TS in Model morphage. And, no, mentioning it or any other program that you would like to see features of is not a bad thing.
Despite some People's dislike of it.
Everyone has opinions. and that is a good thing.
I use DAZ studios and Make Human figures in my renders all the time. Just because I cannot model them myself and there they are where I can get them to the right proportions and poses. I then import them into TS and use them in my scenes. I don't know the legalities of allowing full libraries of objects to be converted to TS, but I would LOVE to see an ability to morph and pose in TS. From the toes right up to the hair. :D |
Post by JPSofCA // May 27, 2007, 7:59pm
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JPSofCA
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I have Poser, and although I enjoy taking my hand at making my own models, time really does become an issue when the years get fewer and fewer. :D
I'm all for clean import from Poser - a common, most permanent export format from their list. I haven't played with Poser in a while [the time thing] but I did find it quite easy to fully articulate a deliberately goofy Jesse pose while playing with it - clothes, eyes, hair...the whole shebang - it's quite an impressive interface.
I don't want to suggest any direct "couplings" of any particular softwares - programs should never attempt to coexist with one another, exept for by means of a delegate, a popular file format, where each can maintain its own identity.
I haven't been keeping up with standards and formats for the past few years, but choose the most standard format out there and avoid the ones that aren't futureproofed with an empty byte or two. Use the "force", I guess.
The main thing is I wanted to do is throw in one more vote on the Poser side. They seem to have strong support with the other big guys - may as well step up to the podium as well. |
Post by Naes3d // May 27, 2007, 8:14pm
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Naes3d
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Not to beat a dead horse as this is going a little off topic, but I think there is a fine line between making tS capable of importing Poser assets and turning tS into Poser with a better renderer.
That said, I don't think that import of .obj and .bvh will totally cover the needs of someone wanting to import Poser assets. For most images, they are fine, but they don't take into consideration Poser's dynamic cloth. When tS gets competent Cloth/Soft body Dynamics, I can see a flood of Poser users wanting to upgrade to the tS toolset as I think there are at least some users waiting for any excuse to ditch Posers cloth handling.
Competent cloth dynamics and morph target implementation combined with tS' key-frame animation + physics simulation + procedural animation + obj import + bvh import could potentially be a Poser Killer. So even tho I don't have a problem with Poser or the way it is used, I don't really see the need to rush to support Poser formats when tS is only missing two (properly implemented) elements that could possibly obsolete it.
Personally, I think the next big mid range 3D program is going to be the one that factors Poser out of the equation. So like I said about another program I use, it's time to play hardball. I vote 'no' on Poser format.
Which leads me back on topic: they did it for VRay, so why not for Syflex?
http://www.syflex.biz/index.html
It's a cloth Simulation plugin. Unless Caligari is working on one of there own that is better... |
Post by Steinie // May 28, 2007, 2:45am
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Steinie
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Let me set the record straight: The Poser Application is needed in the workforce and for other useful duties (some call it Art). What I don't like is not Poser itself but the millions of Poser Users who find the need to make Poser Inflatable Playmates in various positions and post it for all of us to admire. Then call it Art. You couldn't sell that junk in a bad porn magazine.
Using Poser models in your work makes sense in your Professional or Amateur work if the focus was something else. |
Post by JPSofCA // May 28, 2007, 4:05am
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JPSofCA
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Let me set the record straight: The Poser Application is needed in the workforce and for other useful duties (some call it Art). What I don't like is not Poser itself but the millions of Poser Users who find the need to make Poser Inflatable Playmates in various positions and post it for all of us to admire. Then call it Art. You couldn't sell that junk in a bad porn magazine.
Using Poser models in your work makes sense in your Professional or Amateur work if the focus was something else.
I can't stand when somoene's finished work is mainly a Poser figure...when they're significantly modified and put into a major composition, or used as props in the background, sure...but as the main subject just posed - it just don't seem right. :rolleyes: |
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 5:51am
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Not to beat a dead horse as this is going a little off topic, but I think there is a fine line between making tS capable of importing Poser assets and turning tS into Poser with a better renderer.
That said, I don't think that import of .obj and .bvh will totally cover the needs of someone wanting to import Poser assets. For most images, they are fine, but they don't take into consideration Poser's dynamic cloth. When tS gets competent Cloth/Soft body Dynamics, I can see a flood of Poser users wanting to upgrade to the tS toolset as I think there are at least some users waiting for any excuse to ditch Posers cloth handling.
Competent cloth dynamics and morph target implementation combined with tS' key-frame animation + physics simulation + procedural animation + obj import + bvh import could potentially be a Poser Killer. So even tho I don't have a problem with Poser or the way it is used, I don't really see the need to rush to support Poser formats when tS is only missing two (properly implemented) elements that could possibly obsolete it.
Personally, I think the next big mid range 3D program is going to be the one that factors Poser out of the equation. So like I said about another program I use, it's time to play hardball. I vote 'no' on Poser format.
Which leads me back on topic: they did it for VRay, so why not for Syflex?
http://www.syflex.biz/index.html
It's a cloth Simulation plugin. Unless Caligari is working on one of there own that is better...
Because Syflex is double the price of V-ray(and I imagine the licensing is as well) and I imagine the integration to price ratio makes it easier and more profitable to develop it in house. MO anyway.
First sorry to interrupt, as I said I would let this be...
Poser, is not a contender against truespace...never will be. Poser is IMO an entry level product with a mid level price tag...where as, truespace is an advanced product with a similar(bit higher)price tag.
Poser = posing./apples
truspace = create + pose./big oranges
When it comes to the dev of truespace I take it very personally. I feel I am a part of it and the community, and I feel it is a waste of dev time to try to include formats that...
A) promote a rival product
B) adds little functionality to the intended audience
(truespace would become the 3D pornography package, and attract those users)
C) Distract from adding usefull features to the 3D Artist.
(I consider one who creates her/his media from the model to textures etc..to be an Artist)
I am all for new formats as the newer photoshop stated above. I don't see photoshop as a rival piece of software.I may never use it, but I see it as usefull to the Artist and the industry.
I am a bit hippo-critical as I do support using FBX, this is supporting a rival company, but in this world of 3D, bridging(no pun intended) between software is common(as stated numerous times in this thread). FBX also adds more than just 3Dsmax and Maya, it brings the gaming market and the indie developers.
Blender fluids ROCK.....HARD!!!!, but they are actually a bunch of objects 1 per frame I guess...so that I don't say yay or nay...I would prefer our own system using deformable meteball particles, but that is for another thread.
Again I cannot express how sorry I am about my previous "Poser statements" They are in fact how I feel, but I could have shown more tact and constraint.:D |
Post by Naes3d // May 28, 2007, 6:31am
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I think people have very different opinions about what art is.
Art, IMO, is not defined by an evaluation of the process or the media used to create it. You evaluate art by taking into consideration how the peice affects those who experience it.
People who down Poser for it's use remind me of the people who say digital design isn't really art because it wasn't done by hand. I mean, it's easy to let a program spot your shadows for you but can you paint that accurately unaided?
For those of you who are expressing a negative opinion of Poser, I have an experiment for you. Pick up a pencil and draw a circle. Next, turn that circle into a shaded sphere. Now do the same in tS. Evaluate which one took more technical facility. There. Now you are in the same boat as people who use Poser. A person who does it by hand is obviously working harder than you right? By doing it by hand they are demonstrating that they have more facility than one who uses tS to do it right? So everyone using a 3D program isn't really creating art right?
Wrong. They do say that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...
Organization of forms and colors is the foundation of all art. It really has nothing to do with how the subject matter was created.
Back on topic however:
Since DirectX already factors heavily into the tS DNA perhaps support for XNA would be appropriate? From the XNA webpage FAQ:
Q: What is XNA Game Studio Express?
A: XNA Game Studio Express is a new game development solution targeted primarily at students, hobbyists, and independent game developers. XNA Game Studio Express is based on Visual C# Express 2005 and lets developers create games for both Windows and Xbox 360. XNA Game Studio Express contains the following:
The XNA Framework, a set of managed code development libraries that make it possible for game developers to be more productive when creating games for Windows and the Xbox 360...
So yeah, that could prove to be fruitful. |
Post by Naes3d // May 28, 2007, 6:42am
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Because Syflex is double the price of V-ray(and I imagine the licensing is as well) and I imagine the integration to price ratio makes it easier and more profitable to develop it in house. MO anyway.
I hope it is easier to develop in house, but regarding pricing, it $2200 for access to 4 different versions ($550 each). VRay for Max is about $799 I thnk and Caligari brokered a huge discount for tS users. Possible the same could be done for Syflex since only one flavor (tS) would be being sold.
However tS gets cloth dynamics is cool with me as long as it gets it. But we are digressing again into a features topic... |
Post by RAYMAN // May 28, 2007, 7:05am
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RAYMAN
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When it comes to the dev of truespace I take it very personally. I feel I am a part of it and the community, and I feel it is a waste of dev time to try to include formats that...
A) promote a rival product
B) adds little functionality to the intended audience
(truespace would become the 3D pornography package, and attract those users)
I feel sorry that we are talking about an "intended audience"......
Whom is it intended for ?
We should talk about our workflow (in workflow diagrams if you want )
Everyone of us has a different one ... and the question now is how does
Truespace fit into that.
What is right for me does not have to be right for others
:mad:
Does a carpenter promote a rival product when he uses a hammer and
a screwdriver ?
What is so bad to attract other users ?
That I think is what the people from Caligari are working for ...selling
a product .... to as many users as they can.
I for myself wanted the sketchup format ! Why ? because modelling
components for sketchup libraries is what I want Truespace for...
and then making nice renders in vray. I always wished I could
export and import from the libraries with sticky properties.Plus cutting holes in one go.You build a house that way in minutes . You just use drag and drop.
The 3d world of Google Earth is built up of this ! A reeeealy big new
field to work in . |
Post by W!ZARD // May 28, 2007, 8:19am
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We should talk about our workflow (in workflow diagrams if you want )
Everyone of us has a different one ... and the question now is how does
Truespace fit into that.
What is right for me does not have to be right for others
.
I fully concur and have made a similar point elsewhere.
tS 7.5 is like a big city with 4 renderers and soon other exporters acting like major routes from the city. We as users are all starting from different neighbourhoods and are seeking only one (or some of) the possible routes out of town. By simplifying workflows - or developing effective documentation to act as roadmaps - then ALL users can find the optimum route out of town. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 28, 2007, 10:10am
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RAYMAN
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TO ROMAN !
Please if you can fix it .....so that the cob 6.0 that TS7 exports can
be opened in Vue désprit infinit 6 - this must be a minor problem
because the Cob that TS6.6 exports does open very well.
(Unable to read file C.......) |
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 11:58am
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@RAYMAN:
quote: "What is right for me does not have to be right for others"
-RAYMAN.
Exactly right, I was merely voicing my opinion, as usual, and trying to re-coupe a bit of self respect over my recent "poser" issue.
I love sketchup, but I'd rather caligari develop more tools or improve on tools then to have them work on many formats that may/ may not, come and go. Also to not is that if tS became the industry leader then others would be trying to copy their format, but you get there quicker by improving your own software and following your own path. You generally don't get there by mimicking others. I'm not saying we do not need these non mainstream formats(forgive the term). I'm just saying they need to ask themselves if the .xyz format will be around in 5 years, and if so how many packages will support it? Google earth may turn out to be the way to go, but it may not.
Caligari has some very intelligent people and have started some of the most widely used standards in the industry today(widgets, solid render display)in a commercial package. Knowing that I'm not concerned so much with the user that asks for the raydream file importer/exporter, I'm merely injecting my idea of why/why not to bring it into the conversation(poser aside, that was sophomoric at best).
BTW: Do not stop correcting me(or lecturing me), it helps me grow, and I preffer some strong coffee now and again. |
Post by Image3D // May 29, 2007, 12:04pm
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Image3D
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I think we need also the DirectX exporting capability in TS 7.5 as it was available in TS 6 for the new bones animation. This is necessary for working with several Game Engine packages.
Also some way of importing directly .BVH and applying it to the mesh.
Regards,
Joni |
Post by roman // May 29, 2007, 12:30pm
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Thanks guys for great feedback. We are now quite busy improving TS7.5 formats. Now to pose format question a bit differently: Can you post here specific projects which would benefit from an addition of a specific file format to Ts7.5 today?
Please post the description of the project, tools you use currently and format which would make TS7.5 usable for that project. We are quite interested to hear about projects where TS7.5 would be interoperating with other 3D authoring tools. In fact, if you have an interesting project we may be able to get you some free PR for it:) |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 29, 2007, 2:03pm
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FBX would allow me to load TS models directly into XNA and is also supported by Ultimate Unwrap 3D which I'm using for UV mapping at the moment. Better cob and obj support from Workspace side could also help with that as well.
Much as I like the idea of Collada, currently I don't have any apps that it would help me interface with. :o
-Jack. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // May 29, 2007, 6:43pm
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3dvisuals dude
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Thanks guys for great feedback. We are now quite busy improving TS7.5 formats. Now to pose format question a bit differently: Can you post here specific projects which would benefit from an addition of a specific file format to Ts7.5 today?
Please post the description of the project, tools you use currently and format which would make TS7.5 usable for that project. We are quite interested to hear about projects where TS7.5 would be interoperating with other 3D authoring tools. In fact, if you have an interesting project we may be able to get you some free PR for it:)
Great news, thanks!
Unfortunately I don't have TGEA (Torque) yet although if memory serves me I believe Délé and possibly Mr.Bones have Torque already, so hopefully they have a current Torque Project to post for you.
I do have a more immediate need for TS7.5 to import Rhino's (.3dm) Open Nurbs Format which is widely used and happens to be the native nurbs format of Moment of Inspiration (moi3d.com). Although I may be the only person here using MOI3D, there are lots of Rhino users (especially Renderosity and Poser folk) and I've heard that the format is well developed from a standpoint of making it easy to port to other programs. (More info at http://www.opennurbs.com/ )
While Rhino users are a huge market, MOI3D is a small but very rapidly growing market. MOI3D will never be a competitor to trueSpace at all, but it does offer an extremely easy and intuitive set of nurbs solid creation tools and lately almost never crashes even though it is still in beta development. It is slated to go Commercial with version #1 at around $200 in a month or two.
What I would love to be able to do is to bring MOI3D nurbs models in 3dm format right into TS7.5 where the models can be manipulated with TS7.5's incredible new toolset directly (while still being nurbs objects). And although I don't have a current "Project" which would qualify for your offer above, I do have many "project parts" from numerous ongoing efforts which will someday be included in actual "projects." I'd just like to see import capability a lot!
To give you an idea of what 3dm models look like and what TS7.5 could do for these models I put together a zipfile of 29 jpeg images which I'll add to this post. I would love to be able to modify these as nurbs models within TS7.5.
Hopefully Délé and/or Mr.Bones have some Torque Projects to put here which would be more in tune with your offer!
Thanks,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by julesd // May 29, 2007, 7:20pm
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julesd
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Could we get the .obj file format to load textures as well? |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2007, 3:55am
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W!ZARD
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The more comprehensive the support is for .obj import and export the better. I want to be able to use tS created objects with more landscape oriented applications - specifically mojoworld, terragen and vue - all of which read .obj |
Post by kena // May 30, 2007, 5:05am
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Come to think of it - being able to import/export .obj with textures would be fabulous for me as well. so very many programs use that. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 30, 2007, 5:31am
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RAYMAN
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Please post the description of the project, tools you use currently and format which would make TS7.5 usable for that project.
What I am doing with 3d software most of the time is making
backgrounds for photographs (I´´m a professional photographer ).
I use Photoshop and primatte (plug from digital anarchy ) .....
greenscreen to strip them in.
I use all sorts of programs and love to go back to Truespace for
texturing rendering and modelling. I often export to landscape programs
like vue inf. and use mojoworld sometimes too. I just updated to 7.11 and
now to 7.5 with Vray mainly for the reason of having a super renderer (Vray ).
;) that I can´t import into Vue via Cob just blew me off the socks......
(I mentioned that below) I want to use Truespace together with
Sketchup for building cityscapes.....want to make components for the component libraries ( Sketchup ) and render in TS(VRAY) and Vue.
I use Darktrees a lot (unfortunatly cant use them in Vray :mad: )
A super implementation of object format is a must have .
It would be nice that the formats we get are tested in the other
programs. not everything opens in another program.
I sometimes have to open and resave in a third party program.
I have the idea that photoshop plugins could be used
as a post process filter (from within Truespace ).
Actually the more format we can use to hop from one platform
to the other .... the better |
Post by GrimMoroe // May 30, 2007, 12:36pm
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I am currently making a game with TGEA and would also like support for import/export FBX and OBJ then I could put TS into my pipeline. As it stands right now my use of TS is very limited since it is a one way street for OBJ support and no FBX. Tools I am currently using is Motion builder, Maya, Zbrush 3, Photoshop cs and Constructor |
Post by RAYMAN // May 31, 2007, 12:48pm
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I do have a more immediate need for TS7.5 to import Rhino's (.3dm) Open Nurbs Format which is widely used and happens to be the native nurbs format of Moment of Inspiration (moi3d.com). Although I may be the only person here using MOI3D, there are lots of Rhino users (especially Renderosity and Poser folk) and I've heard that the format is well developed from a standpoint of making it easy to port to other programs.
While Rhino users are a huge market, MOI3D is a small but very rapidly growing market. MOI3D will never be a competitor to trueSpace at all, but it does offer an extremely easy and intuitive set of nurbs solid creation tools
What I would love to be able to do is to bring MOI3D nurbs models in 3dm format right into TS7.5 where the models can be manipulated with TS7.5's incredible new toolset directly (while still being nurbs objects).
No your not the only one to use Moi now !
:)
I downloaded the beta and love it !
What I know now from the Moi forum is that files can be exchanged
between Moi and Rhino via CUT AND PASTE !
Moi is lovely for making booleans from curves Too !
Moi is a fantastic complement to Truespace ......
now 3DM via copy and paste would be very high on my list ;)
TRUESPACE HAS NO NURBS AND CURVES format up until now (only ai) |
Post by transient // May 31, 2007, 3:11pm
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....version 1.0 [of moi] will be right around 20% of the price of Rhino....
Just quoting from the moi forums. When you consider Rhino plus Vray costs around $1800, it might be tempting to moi users if they could get access to vray for nearly half this.
Plus they would get all of TS's animation and collaboration ability as well. I'm definitely going to get moi when it's released commercially, so I have a personal reason to want this as well.:D |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // May 31, 2007, 3:51pm
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3dvisuals dude
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@Rayman -
You hit the nail on the head with this one, "Moi is a fantastic complement to Truespace ......" I couldn't agree more.
Also, given that so many talented Renderosity and Poser 3D Modelers have been using Rhino (and hence the same 3dm format M.O.I. now uses) for so many years to make accessories and clothing items for stock human models (Curious Labs, Daz, Greylight, Fractal Design, Viewpoint, and countless other stock human model developers) there are probably thousands of 3D Designers just in these two markets alone who may be attracted to trueSpace7.5's amazing new toolsets and BVH import capability even more if they only had TS7.5 3dm Import compatability with their existing tools and workflow as an added incentive to invest.
Judging from the Rhino site it appears that the two markets I refer to above are only a small segment of McNeel's customerbase although these two "small segments" are huge in themselves.
Yeah, the booleans from curves is a blast and never crashes!
Thanks for chiming in on this format! ;)
@Transient -
A very keen observation and no doubt correct. For current and future M.O.I. users it would be essential to invest in trueSpace7.5 for the hundreds of great features it has which M.O.I. will never have. The expected $200 Commercial tag on M.O.I.v#1 within another two months added to the investment tag of TS7.51 and Vray5.1 will be a real "no-brainer" for these folks compared to going the Rhino/Vray approach as you clearly pointed out above! M.O.I. is already a hugely popular program after only a few months in beta, boasting extremely active English, French, Spanish, and German Forums already too!
Thanks for chiming in here too on this format, it would be a "win-win" option for everyone, especially Caligari and M.O.I.!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by v3rd3 // May 31, 2007, 4:44pm
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The tool that I hope to benefit from using is Makehuman hence my interest in .obj format files. My latest "chip away when you can" project is an animation requiring a large cast of human characters and I want the productivity gains that Makehuman can potentially offer.
I discovered Makehuman not that long ago and my experiments to use the objects it created failed when I tried to apply bones to the figures. That was working with TS7.1 (comp crashed or hung up for days). I will be trying again with 7.5.
To profile my current strategy would be that I intend on using TS with any open source tools that supplement TS features or provide tools that are as yet unavailable. Unavailable may also include addons that I cannot afford (budget limited for my passion - 2 kids etc.).
So classify me as a 3d wannabe with a small purse. When I start earning cash with this "hobby" I will be glad to buck up for more.
My footnote here is that I find 7.5 to be more stable on my humble comp and I congratulate everyone who worked on it. |
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