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Architectural Models from The Realworld ?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Architectural Models from The Realworld ? // Roundtable
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 25, 2007, 1:26pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hi truePlay looks very interesting
I have just tried to login using TS and the TP client but keep getting this message:
"Nick name is wrong or already exists".
In contrast if I deliberately put the 'wrong' login details in I get "Bad login name or password".
Do you have to register separately for a truePlay ID (the website seems to imply that you should be able to login using your existing customer id)
Regards
Gavin
Hi Gavin,
Glad to hear you're trying it all out but sorry about the related login issues. This sort of thing has been known to happen on occasion with the truePlay-truePlaces connection and could just be a temporary glitch, not sure though.
Best bet is to drop a message about it to Caligari Customer Service just to be on the safe side, their response time will probably be very fast on it and they should have you up and running there in no time. :)
Don't give up the effort, it's cool now but it's about to get MUCH cooler pretty soon! :cool:
Hope to meet you there!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jun 28, 2007, 6:45am
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DotNetWebs
Total Posts: 24
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Thanks for that I have sent them an email.
Regards |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 28, 2007, 1:34pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Thanks for that I have sent them an email.
Regards
Great, hope to see you in there sometime soon then.
There's a few things of particular interest to look for in there as you wander around in there soon. Here's a quick list for reference:
1) There's a mouse-over feature in realtime (without having to right-click to technically leave FPN and enable left-clicking features, as one must in most truePlace situations) which appears in several places and I believe has excellent potential for enabling realtime script triggers within truePlaces.
One example is the buttons on the games in the Lakehouse, and another good example is the egg at the bottom of the well in the Mushroom Villiage. I'm fairly certain these mouse-overs can do much more in realtime to enhance the immersiveness of interaction within these spaces, just as I discovered many years ago I could make javascript mouse-overs on web pages do far more than changing images. I'll be looking deeper into that pretty soon myself.
2) In the Labs you will find that proximity to the circular image kiosk enables music. Proximity triggers such as this have excellent uses aside from that function too.
3) The two functional whiteboards (one in the Forum and one in the Lakehouse) are features that have potential for team use.
4) EVERY object with a matrix in truePlace MAY be a link to whisk you off somewhere else entirely... you never know. Roman placed a related message in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the truePlay Manual... makes one wonder for sure. ;)
5) Everything you see and experience in truePlaces is something that you yourself could recreate or enhance on your own hardrives and similarly experience within either truePlay or TS7.xx. You can also utilize new scripts in your own versions which have more interactivity than what you will find employed there so far, and when truPlaces are upgraded to DX9 Shaders soon you will be able to do WYSIWYG shared space design right within truePlace Workplace. Together with free truePlay for all, that's a winner!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jun 30, 2007, 12:17am
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DotNetWebs
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Many thanks for the introduction to truePlay.
I now have a new TP identity and can login successfully so if you see somebody logged in as 'Horsham' you will know it is me.
I am looking forward to trying it out but for now am stuck in my other 'virtual world' that of Microsoft Virtual Earth.
Thanks again.
ps just to bring this back on topic I am currently building my first architectural model and trying to get used to all the old tools again as well as the new interface. I have found the polygon editing tools in the Model view to be the most useful but for some operations I have found the 'snapping' features of the tools in Workspace to be most helpful.
What do people tend to use for architectural modeling 'Workspace', 'Model' or a combination of both?
Regards
Gavin |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 1, 2007, 11:49pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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@ Gavin - I use both and have found the CKGamefactory PolyTools Plugin to be an absolute model-side "must-have" in my TS modeling arsenal. I also use a lot of other 3d modeling programs and import stuff into TS using the Luuv Plugin in the TS directory tree.
@ Everybody -
Want your architectural models to take on a completely new dimension of realism? -This will astonish you.
At first glance this may seem off-topic here but it definitely isn't. We're all familiar with the options out there in terms of what kind of immersive environments can be created for our virtual architecture models to reside in... until now that is... just wait 'till you see these two short utube videos! Virtual environments never looked ~this~ real before...
I stumbled for the first time today across an extremely new DX9/10-based genuinely photorealistic game engine that absolutely blows me away in terms of realism... the "CryEngine2" being used for the upcoming "Crysis" game platform. It already has a 32 simultaneous player mode, and the potential for using this outstanding realism for non-gaming use is already there as well, in that the developers are releasing a content and level editor simultaneously with the upcoming game release.
TrueSpace is clearly heading down this same path currently, and we are told that trueServe will soon be upgraded to the trueSpace DX9/10 compatability as well. These two videos will give you a clear glimpse of what that could really mean to us all very soon... genuinely amazing potentials here.:cool:
This will blow you away too if you've never seen it before, just read the following blog about it (including the wikki links) and definitely check out these two short and AWESOME utube videos done in CryEngine2 on this blog page:
http://www.pastthinking.com/blog/category/3d/ (http://www.pastthinking.com/blog/category/3d/)
These guys just set the bar to a whole new level. If they price it right as well, we'll be able to create unprecedented realism in realtime immersive multi-user architectural tours and virtual construction/reconstruction with this stuff, and that's only the beginning. Since trueSpace is already heading on a parallel path these two paths may very soon converge. ;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by brotherx // Jul 2, 2007, 12:23am
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brotherx
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Isn't that the same engine as used in Far Cry?
I remember the graphics in that looked so sweet. It puts the likes of half-life 2 to shame and played better too. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 2, 2007, 1:16am
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3dvisuals dude
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Isn't that the same engine as used in Far Cry?
I remember the graphics in that looked so sweet. It puts the likes of half-life 2 to shame and played better too.
Hi Brotherx,
Far Cry utilized earlier versions of the CryEngine software, but the newest version used here (CryEngine2) in Crytek's yet-unreleased game called "Crysis" goes well beyond FarCry capabilities entirely... this technological power and integration of this new engine version is light years ahead of anything else out there from what I've seen so far.
Shortly after announcing the development of this new version a very far-sighted Honolulu company snapped up a license to use it for their own version of a Massively Multiuser Online Virtual World (MMOVW) they are creating with a social sci-fi setting of terraformed Mars colonization.
It does take huge bucks to launch such things but far-sighted investors are not as hard to find anymore as one might think for such endeavors. For those of us with enough vision, determination, and ambition, the technological barriers to such things are very rapidly vanishing, and for 3D Modelers with a great imagination that spells "opportunity" in very big glowing letters!:D
Great times these!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by TomG // Jul 2, 2007, 4:34am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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EDIT - was speaking from memory below, just checked, and DX10 systems account for 1.57% of the people surveyed, so we can consider that percentage probably lower in the general community, so aiming for exploiting DX10 would really limit truePlay at present - note that Crysis will similarly only be enjoyable by that small percentage of DX10 users....) END EDIT
Bear in mind that to run a DX10 game, you will need a DX10 card (currently, the 8800 from NVIDIA, and ATI has a recently released DX10 series too).
Not sure about this comment - "and we are told that trueServe will soon be upgraded to the trueSpace DX9/10 compatability as well" - truePlay is already compatible with both DX9 and DX10. I have a DX10 card and it runs fine.
BUT truePlay is a DX9 application and will remain that way for a while, because its important that people are able to access it without spending $300 on a graphics card.
Take a look at Valve's online survey - as part of their Steam engine and Half Life 2 stuff, they survey the hardware people own:
http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html
DX10 is a TINY percentage of that, and to make truePlay into a DX10 application would then lock out all those people except that 5% of early adopters. You'll note in fact that a large percentage of people are running on the FX5 series and similar early cards, and these won't even display the full capabilities of truePlay's DX9 shaders and shadows, let alone DX10!
It will be years before DX10 is enough of a standard for it to be commonplace enough to consider turning an application that is aimed at allowing a wide audience to access it into a DX10 application.
Meantime of course, truePlay runs just fine on DX10 hardware, and while it gets no benefit from being on DX10, it gets all the speed benefit from the monster power of the DX10 cards from ATI and NVIDIA.
So... no compatibility update for DX9 / DX10 required, it's already compatible, and don't expect a DX10 upgrade soon (which is good news, as it means your customers and clients won't be required to be in the top 5% of hardware owners in order to run it!).
BTW the Valve survey is useful for what you are pitching your products at - bear in mind that as gameplayers and Steam users, these people are likely to be MORE tech savvy and tech interested than your "regular joe", so that out in the wide world of PCs beyond those interested in running the latest games, the percentages of large memory, DX10 graphics cards, etc, are likely to be less than what we see in this survey.
Other things of interest in there are things like amount of memory (most people still have between 512Mb and 1Gb), hard drive space (a lot of people without much of this left free), and so on :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 2, 2007, 6:34am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Thanks Tom.
When I was referring to trueServe being upgraded to DX9/10 I was referring to the comment posted by Roman in the Captains Blog that truePlace (and therefore trueServe) was being brought up to TS7.5 compatability (and therefore TS7.5 texturing capability) from the current TS7.0 state of that hosting platform. Since I never owned TS7.0 or 7.1, however, I didn't realize that these two versions already had DX9 shader capability. I went straight from TS6.6 to 7.5 and now 7/51 so DX9 realtime shaders in workplace are an entirely new item to me altogether.
Sorry for the confusion, I assumed the introduction of DX9 shaders (as good as those currently in TS7.51) to truePlaces was something yet to occur. The existing shaders in truePlaces don't appear to be nearly as good as the DX9 shaders now in TS7.51, but appear to be simple color shaders similar to those in TS6.6 in fact. My bad.:o
In any case though, the creators of this new "CryEngine2" Engine I'm referring to above are similarly aiming wide rather than narrow, ie: they are currently developing this new engine to fully support ~BOTH~ DX9 and DX10 (inasmuch as that is possible anyway, of course).
Pretty awesome stuff at 30fps too, so I agree, I'm sure the ram and CPU requirements are going to be serious. Still, it clearly appears to be breaking new ground anyway you slice it. Doesn't it?
Great days these,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by TomG // Jul 2, 2007, 8:49am
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TomG
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I think most of the special stuff in Crysis is dependent on DX10 though, it takes advantage of the much improved rendering pipeline and the abilty of DX10 cards to handle physics as well as lighting etc. I would be surprised if DX9 got 50% of the features that the DX10 version of the engine has, but we'll see!
As for truePlay, it does have simple shaders, simply because the scenes are kept clean and easy, and designed to work with those large numbers still on an FX5x card and others from that generation. Fancy shaders do take more GPU power, so will slow things down for those not on the latest hardware, so the tP scenes are kept pretty straightforward as they are open to all, and there is no way to predict what hardware they have.
But truePlay, and tS7.0, had all the realtime shader capabilities from day one, so they are indeed not new :) We just chose for speed and compatibility not to put them in public scenes where they would look great for some, but adversely affect performance for others.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 2, 2007, 1:25pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Thanks again Tom.
I agree for the most part that it's a good thing to keep truePlaces as simple as possible texturewise, and I have no idea how much complex DX9 textures may add to serverside scene overhead at all. From a shared space design standpoint it would also be nice for all of us to know such things at some point down the road, certainly before we begin to lease personal spaces.
That brings us to another on-topic point also...
I'm sure lots of us would be interested in leasing Personal Space now on Caligari servers given that 7.51 is rolled out. Any news on that for us?
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jul 2, 2007, 7:57pm
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DotNetWebs
Total Posts: 24
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Thanks again Tom.
That brings us to another on-topic point also...
I'm sure lots of us would be interested in leasing Personal Space now on Caligari servers given that 7.51 is rolled out. Any news on that for us?
- 3dvisuals dude
Excuse my ignorance I still have not had chance to investigate truePlay in any detail.
I assume you are talking about leasing your own personal truePlay space on Caligaris server to display, and allow interaction with, your own models. I would also be very interested in this but what would interest me even more would be the ability to run the truePlay application of my own servers
My ideal scenario would be to be able to run my own server application and integrate it tightly into my own web sites. Site visitiors would be prompted to download the truePlay client in a similar way to Shockwave or Flash etc.
Will some thing like this ever be possible or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Regards
Gavin |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 2, 2007, 9:07pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Excuse my ignorance I still have not had chance to investigate truePlay in any detail.
I assume you are talking about leasing your own personal truePlay space on Caligaris server to display, and allow interaction with, your own models. I would also be very interested in this but what would interest me even more would be the ability to run the truePlay application of my own servers
My ideal scenario would be to be able to run my own server application and integrate it tightly into my own web sites. Site visitiors would be prompted to download the truePlay client in a similar way to Shockwave or Flash etc.
Will some thing like this ever be possible or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Regards
Gavin
Actually yes, I was referring to the leasing of Personal Shared Space on Caligari servers above, although several people could simultaneously interact and collaborate within such a setting as well via trueSpace and/or truePlay. This has been discussed occasionally here in the forums over the last year but is yet to actually occur as planned.
Regarding the leasing of Caligari's commercial "trueServe" shared space hosting software (currently utilized for truePlaces) you will find some related info at the following sources:
trueServe Intro:
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tServe/tServe_intro.asp
trueServe FAQ:
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tServe/tServe_FAQ.asp
For additional trueServe info:
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tServe/tServe_contact.asp
I intend to lease this myself as well but will refer you directly to Caligari for all "trueServe" related information.
Respectfully,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jul 2, 2007, 10:03pm
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DotNetWebs
Total Posts: 24
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Thanks for that I didn’t realise that trueServe existed. It sounds like exactly what I was talking about.
I was quite excited about it until I saw the price! That’s way out of my league for the sort of project I had in mind. It’s a shame because if it was a bit more affordable more developers might adopt it and it might become more main stream.
Perhaps Caligari should consider a ‘lite’ version restricted by the number of simultaneous users etc.
Regards
Gavin |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 3, 2007, 3:36am
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3dvisuals dude
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Hi Gavin,
While I don't want to put words in Caligari's mouth in relation to existing "trueServe" specifics, I will say this...
You might consider forming a related limited partnership with four others if you'd like to pursue the potential with that further, then the investment is only $19 bucks a week each for the software when you break it down by 52 weeks and 5 partners. Of course you'd still have to be able to afford the necessary hardware and maintenance as well as a T1 or T3 dedicated phone line on top of that for any really serious multiplayer/multiuser use as well, and a "lite version" would similarly still entail those additional investments.
One thing is certain in all this, there are undoubtedly many people willing to pay "something" monthly to have ~a scaled down version~ of this capability themselves but hosted by Caligari, and at the moment all that money is going somewhere else every day since such an alternative hasn't yet arrived.
Again though, with partners nearly everything is affordable.;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jul 3, 2007, 6:15am
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DotNetWebs
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The 'additional' costs would not be an issue since I already run a couple of dedicated servers with 100Mbps connections.
I don't think the 'partners' route would be very practicable for me for various reasons.
I am primarily a web developer who currently works with Microsoft technologies. It is currently fashionable to knock Microsoft but I think they have the right idea of licensing models. They are very successful at getting developers to adopt their technologies.
For instance I use Visual Studio Professional Edition which retails for around £900. I think it is worth every penny but would I purchase it if I was just flirting with the idea of ASP.NET development? of course not. Microsoft also produces Visual Studio Express which is FREE. This tool can be used to build web applications which are every bit as powerful as can be built with the Professional Edition. So why do choose to spend my £900? Because It has tools which immensely improve productivity and speeds up development times. Many students start out with the free edition and go on to form web development companies that spend many thousands on corporate team editions. Get them in early and they may spend their whole career 'hooked in' to these applications.
It's not just Visual Studio either. There is a similar upgrade path with SQL Server. You can build perfectly functional database applications for free with the Express version but these applications will often eventually be scaled up to run on corporate server editions that may cost many thousands of pounds. I am currently working on the Virtual Earth platform and have a working application that has to date cost me nothing in license fees, but, if scaled up will bring revenue to Microsoft. Also the widespread adoption of Virtual Earth, aided by early developers like my peers and I, will help them earn revenue by indirect means.
I don't want to sound like I am a Microsoft evangelist (because I am not) but I understand how they are successful in getting technologies accepted. The next big thing for me is Silverlight. I already develop with Flash/Actionscript but can see how Silverlight can offer huge advantages to the .net developer. 3D support was dropped from the current edition of Silverlight but I bet it will make it in eventually (there are already people working on basic 3D plugins).
I am not suggesting any of this is rival to trueServe etc. in it's current form but it does not take a huge leap of the imagination to visualise Microsoft developing an affordable, server based, multiuser 3D environment. If and when they do Microsoft will have access to an army of .net developers like myself who think 3D is the future and who will drive them forward in the arena.
I have spent a lot of money on trueSpace over the years and believe it to be money well spent but would not commit myself to the sort of money Caligari are asking for trueServe without first 'proving the concept' in my own environment.
Regards
Gavin
ps Sorry for the thread creep (again!) I just wanted to reinforce my point that an affordable, limited functionality, version of trueServe could benefit us all. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 8, 2007, 3:57am
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3dvisuals dude
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Hi folks,
Getting back somewhat to topic here, I revisited the CryEngine2 Engine to determine as best I could what users of DX9-only-cards could reasonably expect to experience with this amazing new realtime environment creation and MMO hosting tool and found the following related and very detailed video.
The following video is a Gamespot Interview held in 2006 at the rollout of Nvidea's GeForce 8800 series cards. Note in this video that although the 8800 series card handles both DX9 and DX10, that the actual Crysis (and therefore CryEngine2) video demo you are about to see was done in the "mixed" DX9/DX10 version of the new CryEngine2 engine with "minimal support" at that time for DX10. This DX9/DX10 Card and Engine compatability issue is discussed in great detail during this demo by the CEO of Crytek (Cevat Yerli), where he emphasizes that even under DX9-only cards and "3 year old technology" the experience will be excellent nevertheless.
The point here being that those of you (as well as myself) who eventually intend to place your architectural models (or cities) within genuinely photorealistic 30+ frame per second realtime online virtual reality environments with astonishing effects will soon be able to do so via this new Engine and it's accompanying Level Editor. While this may indeed entail a considerable investment for some of us to do so it appears at this point that it will obviously be a good move nevertheless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t843OgT5ZOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t843OgT5ZOQ)
Prices for this new multiplayer realtime game engine hosting platform, level editor, and multiplayer game have not been announced at this time but are expected very soon now. If you want cutting edge realism though, this is it, whatever the investment.
Additional CryEngine2-related videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPKMUFc6TT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDLTRXV1KHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1ELRWTXQ1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slN0QxRm19U
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by TomG // Jul 11, 2007, 2:26am
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TomG
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There are some issues there though.
First you will need a game in which to create your models, and then your clients will need the game, and will need to install custom mods. You will also need to know how to set up a game server, and have a server running for that purpose.
Primarily, it does not look too professional to require your clients to purchase and own a game in order to access your 3D environment. And if you are making levels in a game, this is the only way to do it. With truePlay of course the client just downloads a free professional piece of software, rather than has to purchase a game :)
Next, if you want to license a game engine to develop your own application around it, this is possible - it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, but game companies do it all the time, they lease the render engine from another company, and make there game in it. Pretty pricey solution though!
Multiplayer games usually have a limit on the number of people present at once, and the limit can be quite small (8, or 16 is quite common). truePlay at the moment does not have that restriction.
Programming in a game environment is tricky - while it is possible to re-write a game into something entirely different than it was, it is a lot of hard work. So people can turn Half Life 2 into a soccer game, when it starts out as a First Person Shooter, but its not easy. trueSpace and truePlay are designed for much easier editing and creating of environments and interaction, and it integrates the world creation and world delivery (level editors are generally not so friendly to use, then you have to compile your level to actually walk around it and see what it looks like, then back to the level editor to make changes, then compile to actually walk around and see what it looks like - a separation that doesnt exist in trueSpace / truePlay where you can model and script and see instant results as your modeling / creation environment IS your deliveyr environment).
Shared creation in a game environment is not possible, so for those who want to meet and create levels together interactively, the game engine does not provide a solution. It might provide a place to walk around together and interact with things that are already created, but there is no way to edit those things on the fly, and no way for people to build things together in that environment. For worlds that are "static" (ie sure you can interact with things in the world, like pressing a button to make something happen, but the world itself cannot be re-written without being recompiled, like changing just what pressing the button does) then game engines are ok, within the restrictions mentioned above of course.
Game engines won't support other collaborative features like truePlay does and will - things like control over who gets to talk on audio and who doesn't, keys that will define who can edit and who can just watch, and so on.
So, " If you want cutting edge realism though, this is it, whatever the investment." is not strictly correct - it would be "it" depending on whether those restrictions and problems are ok for your needs. For other needs, even just the professionalism of not requiring your client to buy and install a game in order to access your creations, then other solutions may well be "it" :)
You will note that Half Life 2 gives better realism than Second Life, but IBM and Reuters have not been opening virtual offices in Half Life 2 - so the game engine approach to these environments for professional use is not the best route to go, and Crysis won't change that either.
The two are different tools for different purposes - Crysis is an awesome game engine. If you have half a million dollars, and a good development team, you could license a game engine and build your own truePlace functionality (you could do that already with Source, Unreal, etc, in fact, and that is the sort of pricing those real-time engines cost to license). However, truePlace and truePlay will serve a different market with different needs, and in fact provides a very affordable solution in comparison, particularly with the upcoming option to simply rent space rather than buy your own server.
Note that you can try a lot of the functionality out for yourself, as you can build the worlds in trueSpace, and you can send them to people to explore offline as RsSCN files. You only need the server for the final step of brining everyone together online and live in the same shared space. With rented space, it would be easy to spend development time for your enviroment offline, then rent the space for a limited time to test and polish in a shared environment, and then you would have the option to continue renting just that space, or you'd have the "proof of concept" required and know the investment in trueServe was worthwhile to go ahead with :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 11, 2007, 11:01am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hello again Tom.
Your lengthly post here required 2 response posts, here's the first:
There are some issues there though.
It appears from your response, unless I'm mistaken, that you are approaching my references to the Cryengine2 platform as though I were suggesting it as a better alternative to the "trueServe with trueSpace or truePlay" approach and I am not. This is an apples and oranges comparison here.
The level of realtime collaborative modeling interaction possible for simultaneous trueSpace users within a trueServe environment is something Cryengine2 will likely never offer. If one's objective lies in utilizing realtime collaborative modeling there is no alternative to investing in trueSpace with trueServe, and in fact, as you already know, I intend to invest soon in trueServe myself for this very reason. Cryengine2 is a tool for entirely different objectives which obviously will require a much larger investment.
First you will need a game in which to create your models, and then your clients will need the game, and will need to install custom mods. You will also need to know how to set up a game server, and have a server running for that purpose.
Actually the package contains both a comprehensive environment editor and a fully integrated Network Client and Server System both of which can either be utilized for the creation of multiplayer games or virtual multi-user online environments, and in the latter case would not require your clients to purchase any "game" at all, and it's the latter case I was specifically pointing toward earlier.
As for "needing to know how to set up a game server" if one were licensing this software either for game creation or interactive world creation there would of course be abundant related technical assistance both within the package itself and through the package provider directly, just as one would assume to be readily available with any similar trueServe investment.
As for server hardware and T1/T3 lines, these would of course be necessary with Cryengine2 just as they are with trueServe or any other hosting software platform. It takes money to make money no matter what we do in life. Few of us indeed could afford to invest alone in such endeavors, but fortunately these days there are a rapidly growing number of highly successful MMO-related financial R.O.I. examples serving as excellent precedents for the genuine attraction of professional investment partners, whether that intended investment lies with trueServe (as it does in my own case at the moment) or with Cryengine2 or with both (as it does with me).
Below are a couple of directly related clarifying excerpts from the Cryengine2 Features file ( http://www.crytek.com/CryENGINE2Features.pdf ):
The CryENGINE™ 2 comes complete with all of its internal tools and also includes the CryENGINE™ 2 Sandbox world editing system.
Licensees receive full source code and documentation for the engine and tools. Support is provided directly from the R & D Team that continuously develops the engine and can arrange teaching workshops for your team to increase the learning process.
Integrated CryENGINE Sandbox2 Editor: Run time engine is fully integrated into the CryENGINE Sandbox2 editor to give designers "What you see is what you play" functionality
Network Client and Server System: CryENGINE™ 2 has a totally new, multi-threaded networking system which manages all connections for multiplayer mode.
Resource Compiler: Assets are compiled from their original formats to an optimized platform dependent one by the resource compiler at project build time. This allows making global changes (e.g. mipmap computation, mesh stripification) to the output data depending on presets and target platforms without affecting the final level loading times, or requiring developers to keep multiple versions of assets on hand for different platforms.HTH
Primarily, it does not look too professional to require your clients to purchase and own a game in order to access your 3D environment. And if you are making levels in a game, this is the only way to do it. With truePlay of course the client just downloads a free professional piece of software, rather than has to purchase a game .
Comparisons between Cryengine2 and trueServe are not what this thread is about and were never intended here by me, it's an apples and oranges comparison, they serve entirely different purposes.
As for you stating that it "does not look too professional" to take such an approach I suggest you might tell that to the following people since these individuals just purchased the licensing for Cryengine2 for utilization in their upcoming massively multi-user online world.:
Kazuyuki Hashimoto - President of Avatar Reality Inc.
(Former Vice President of Technology and New Platforms at Electronic Arts, Inc.)
Li-han Chin - Vice President of Development for Avatar Reality, Inc.
(Former Project Manager of SOGA / Sony Online Ent. & Gamania)
I suppose these would be "unprofessional" examples to follow then.
Next, if you want to license a game engine to develop your own application around it, this is possible - it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, but game companies do it all the time, they lease the render engine from another company, and make there game in it. Pretty pricey solution though!
Indeed it is. I would venture a likely guess at 3 Million as a more realistic upfront investment figure in this particular case (the creation of a MMOVW as opposed to a game), but as they say "if you wanna play you have to pay."
Multiplayer games usually have a limit on the number of people present at once, and the limit can be quite small (8, or 16 is quite common). truePlay at the moment does not have that restriction.
I believe in the case of the standard licensing for Cryengine2 that number is currently 24, but obviously that can be overcome if one pays to overcome it as is clearly the case with Avatar Reality's upcoming virtual multiuser world.
I'm very glad truePlay doesn't have that restriction now, but your "at the moment" insertion there gives me pause...
Programming in a game environment is tricky - while it is possible to re-write a game into something entirely different than it was, it is a lot of hard work. So people can turn Half Life 2 into a soccer game, when it starts out as a First Person Shooter, but its not easy.
I'm sure it's no cakewalk at all and no doubt requires teams of individuals working together on various complex aspects let alone complex integration. One close look at the video link provided above in this thread showing the Cryengine2 Sandbox Editor in action makes that clear, although it is certainly a highly developed toolset for such purposes.
trueSpace and truePlay are designed for much easier editing and creating of environments and interaction, and it integrates the world creation and world delivery (level editors are generally not so friendly to use, then you have to compile your level to actually walk around it and see what it looks like, then back to the level editor to make changes, then compile to actually walk around and see what it looks like - a separation that doesnt exist in trueSpace / truePlay where you can model and script and see instant results as your modeling / creation environment IS your deliveyr environment).
True.
Shared creation in a game environment is not possible, so for those who want to meet and create levels together interactively, the game engine does not provide a solution.
Yes, trueServe=Apple / Cryengine2-Orange.
It might provide a place to walk around together and interact with things that are already created, but there is no way to edit those things on the fly, and no way for people to build things together in that environment.
Cryengine2 utilization within Avatar Reality's upcoming MMOVW is said to already have incorporated the ability of users to change avatars on the fly and perhaps the ability to alter or introduce new structures will also be provided to a limited extent, so while the Orange is still an Orange it does offer a pleasant experience for users apparently. I still like Apples myself also.
For worlds that are "static" (ie sure you can interact with things in the world, like pressing a button to make something happen, but the world itself cannot be re-written without being recompiled, like changing just what pressing the button does) then game engines are ok, within the restrictions mentioned above of course.
Agreed.
trueServe is also great, a fact which in my honest opinion gets far too little emphasis at the Caligari website by the way. It would be nice there, for instance, to see pages showing "here's how we (Caligari) can help you utilize trueServe to accomplish _____ and ______. I'm surprised that approach hasn't been fully developed there in relation to the amazing potentials of trueServe. Perhaps it's time.
Part 2 follows: |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 11, 2007, 11:03am
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3dvisuals dude
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Game engines won't support other collaborative features like truePlay does and will - things like control over who gets to talk on audio and who doesn't, keys that will define who can edit and who can just watch, and so on.
So, " If you want cutting edge realism though, this is it, whatever the investment." is not strictly correct - it would be "it" depending on whether those restrictions and problems are ok for your needs. For other needs, even just the professionalism of not requiring your client to buy and install a game in order to access your creations, then other solutions may well be "it"
When you redefine "it" as you have above to introduce Apples into the Orange equation of my post you are of course correct.
As for being unprofessional again you may wish to take that up with the two individuals listed above.
You will note that Half Life 2 gives better realism than Second Life, but IBM and Reuters have not been opening virtual offices in Half Life 2 - so the game engine approach to these environments for professional use is not the best route to go, and Crysis won't change that either.
As for being unprofessional again you may wish to take that up with the two individuals listed above.
The two are different tools for different purposes - Crysis is an awesome game engine. If you have half a million dollars, and a good development team, you could license a game engine and build your own truePlace functionality (you could do that already with Source, Unreal, etc, in fact, and that is the sort of pricing those real-time engines cost to license). However, truePlace and truePlay will serve a different market with different needs, and in fact provides a very affordable solution in comparison, particularly with the upcoming option to simply rent space rather than buy your own server.
Agreed.
So where exactly is this rental space mentioned here a year ago (in the "Let's build trueTown" thread) by the way?
Note that you can try a lot of the functionality out for yourself, as you can build the worlds in trueSpace, and you can send them to people to explore offline as RsSCN files.
This is frankly the entire reason I invested in upgrading trueSpace but it is not true within truePlay 1.21 at the moment and that is a major problem for me and other here. truePlay 1.21 is ~not compatable~ with RSSCN files created in TS7.5 or 7.51 at all. Norm said in a related thread here though that that is currently being addressed by the Devs, so hopefully this problem will be addressed very soon.
You only need the server for the final step of brining everyone together online and live in the same shared space. With rented space, it would be easy to spend development time for your enviroment offline, then rent the space for a limited time to test and polish in a shared environment, and then you would have the option to continue renting just that space, or you'd have the "proof of concept" required and know the investment in trueServe was worthwhile to go ahead with HTH!
Tom
YES!!!!!!!!!!! WE ALL WANT THIS RENTAL SPACE NOW. I agree with you a thousand percent on that last paragraph. Let's get this accomplished fast.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by TomG // Jul 11, 2007, 1:12pm
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TomG
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Note that the unprofessional refers to the regular licensing of a game engine.
Licensing a game engine for your use and distribution usually costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and is of course entirely professional. I am assuming that licensing the CryEngine to develop your own virtual worlds will be in the same price bracket as licensing Unreal or Source, which is to say, hundreds of thousands of dollars. Perhaps the CryEngine will bring with it a new form of licensing, I don't know, but I would be surprised, given the amount of R&D that goes into such an engine.
The only affordable alternative for most people is to use the game engine, which of course does not have any license for you to distribute the engine - hence, your customer or client must own their own license for the engine, which means they need to own the game.
Now those two people you keep refering to are large heads of huge companies and for them a half a million dollar license for engine use is very affordable.
My comparison is here because the thread could well be read by people and they could think "Oh I won't bother with truePlay then, I'll just use this new CryEngine thing, this thread says it is much better!"
It is indeed apples and oranges, which was what I wanted to point out :) I dont think that point had been made before, that the concept of licensing the CryEngine (unless they are TOTALLY different from all engines before in how they handle this) is something in the hundreds of thousands, a very different price bracket from truePlace and truePlay. Not only that, but the ability to license spaces on truePlace also makes it very different, since you needn't actually license the whole technology, just rent yourself a space. The viewer, the real-time engine, is already free for everyone to distribute in the form of truePlay :)
That was not something I'd seen discussed previously, so could well leave people confused on the issue. I'd be interested to know the price for licensing the CryEngine for your own use though, to be sure :)
Anyway, without hundreds of thousands of dollars, I suspect the CryEngine will not present anything new to most of us, other than the scenario involving making mods for commercially purchased games that have licensed it, which was what I wanted to explain.
On neither extreme does the Crysis engine offer the solution - on the one hand, the affordable end has the unprofessional requirement that the customer purchase the engine, in the form of a game. On the other end which is totally professional, the developer of the virtual world will need to be backed by a large company or have an enormouse personal wallet that makes cost no object.
Both scenarios suit many purposes, and indeed neither of those purposes are the ones that truePlace suits - the desire for small companies and individuals to be able to create their own virtual worlds for people to visit and meet together inside. So for those reading the thread, now they can know the "horses for courses" and choose which solution best meets their needs.
Just wanted to be clear that it is unlikely you will be able to license the CryEngine for your own development at a price that will be affordable by 99% of the people here (as I say, unless they have a very different pricing structure from other engines!). I felt that point was unclear, and yes, obviously its important that Caligari make that point clear for potential customers and users :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 11, 2007, 2:23pm
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RAYMAN
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Somewhat strange to hear that while some of you dream about
realtime enviroments ( I know technology is moving on fast..... )
some others like myself would rave just over minor improvements
caustics etc. in the "standard" offline renderer - lightworks .......when
the state of the art is things like global ill. , final gathering etc.
What game engines like Crysis do is put up great expectations .....;) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 11, 2007, 7:14pm
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3dvisuals dude
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Thanks again Tom.
Actually you and I are very much in agreement on the value and potential of both trueServe and truePlay. As a matter of fact, one might be very hard pressed to find anyone else here who sees more genuine potential in both than you and I clearly do.
If one looks around hard in this forum they'll probably find that I've personally posted more enthusiastic and positive posts regarding both trueServe and truePlay than Team Caligari has collectively! :D Together they represent a genuinely fantastic and unprecedented opportunity for each of us, opening doors to global online business exchange on the part of trueSpace 3D Modelers unlike any opportunities offered by "so called" Caligari competitors to date.
The most important related issue left unresolved in my mind at least at the moment is when will we be allowed to actually do what you have suggested above... rent space for the development of "proof of concept" prototype environments (aimed at short term per-project trueServe pre-investment feasibility tests), or just for personal or small-group multi-user usage in general?
Many here would no doubt use such spaces in conjunction with truePlay as a wonderful adjunct for their existing website clientelle, many others for customized personal meetingplaces, and a few like myself for various pre-investment project prototypes. It would be very good for all of us no matter how you slice it, especially for Caligari in light of what it would certainly lead to in further trueServe investments.
Having that capability very soon, combined with the Dev's resolving the current truePlay/TS7.5x Rsscn incompatability issue would be for many of us, in a word, "perfect."
Whenever I do have such a rented space Tom, lets you and I get together in ther alone for an hour or two and discuss some of the things we'd each really like to see for the first time in such a place. That would really be something.;)
All the best,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 11, 2007, 7:26pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Somewhat strange to hear that while some of you dream about
realtime enviroments ( I know technology is moving on fast..... )
some others like myself would rave just over minor improvements
caustics etc. in the "standard" offline renderer - lightworks .......when
the state of the art is things like global ill. , final gathering etc.
What game engines like Crysis do is put up great expectations .....;)
Hi Rayman (long time no see by the way!),
Yeah, it is kinda funny. There's a strange dichotomy in all this development stuff for sure. For me anyway, judging all the development priorities is pretty easy... it's simply a practicality issue for me. I fully intend to make a lot of money in the next five years creating and selling developed virtual spaces of various types, so rendering, animation, rigging, Vray, Lightworks, and anything else not directly related to my objectives tends to drop under my radar fairly rapidly. Not that I don't care about these other things, rather that I can't afford to allow myself to care very much. ;)
I don't expect to be alive very much longer, so for me it's all about living what's left to the max. Creating virtual worlds that outlive me would put a smile on my face on the way out the door, which is more than a lot of us have to look forward to for sure.:cool:
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by TomG // Jul 12, 2007, 2:59am
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We are very much on the same page on the real-time issues! I was mainly seeking to clarify things for those who may not be as familiar with the various real-time engines and their licensing.
Anyway, I too want to see the "rentable" spaces, it will be an exciting development and a lot of fun. You can be assured that we are doing all we can to make that happen as soon as possible, along with the compatibility of tP with tS7.5 RsSCN files of course.
Its true for now at least that real-time and offline are different worlds - but they are worlds that are coming closer together all the time as real-time rendering improves in speed and power. Perhaps one of those most interesting areas is actually using both - using an offline renderer to generate the information that goes into the real-time renderer, so that you precalculate some things like GI etc, giving you something of a "best of both worlds" (though naturally such baked lighting would be for static objects only).
Anyway, who knows, in future realtime GI and caustics may become commonplace, which would be a lot of fun!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 12, 2007, 4:06am
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RAYMAN
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Anyway, who knows, in future realtime GI and caustics may become commonplace, which would be a lot of fun!
HTH!
Tom
YUP !
Does not look like its that far away !
As for realtime caustics I remember a siggraph special -realtime or almost
realtime lightwork solution some 2-3 years ago
and for instant global illumination there is Hypershot out there already... |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 16, 2007, 2:31pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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http://www.vreel-3d.de/PhotoMatch/
In the world of archviz, programs or techniques that allow you to use photography with 3D are very important.
http://www.vreel-3d.de/PhotoMatch/
This program is worth watching. It was only available as a C4D plugin, but they are now going to make it as a standalone program also.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 16, 2007, 2:46pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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http://imagemodeler.realviz.com/photomodeling-software-tutorials/modeling-tutorials-vtour-16.php
realviz.com
VTour is another tool that might provide some value to people looking to create photoreal 3D. While the techniques are not going to work in all situations. It is a viable way of taking a 2D picture of a site and converting the buildings to archviz type models.
Run the Full Project demo to get a feeling for what the program is capable of. The world you are inside is a complete 360 degree spherical panorama.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 17, 2007, 2:52am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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We've all seen QTVR movies. They are photographs that are merged together with software that allow you to be immersed into a scene. I've been shooting these for a couple of years now. This particular one I am working on to enhace the visual effect of. Using a 3D program like TS I can take these same pictures into TS and create the same effect. Using some of the other techniques I dicussed I can change some of the elements into 3D...
More to come...
Rich |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 18, 2007, 12:18pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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We've all seen QTVR movies. They are photographs that are merged together with software that allow you to be immersed into a scene. I've been shooting these for a couple of years now. This particular one I am working on to enhace the visual effect of. Using a 3D program like TS I can take these same pictures into TS and create the same effect. Using some of the other techniques I dicussed I can change some of the elements into 3D...
More to come...
Rich
Hi Rich,
This QTVR Movie you made here is really cool. Excellent spot you chose for this panorama by the way, after looking around at this scene It almost hurts that I can't take a few steps around in there and start exploring further!:)
I looked up at the intertwined tree branches and started a rotational view of them, it was almost hypnotic... very cool effect if you wanted to grab frames of that rotation in sequence and add it to a music video!:cool:
The photo quality you used here is excellent, and in spite of the great detail doesn't appear to slow down or stutter at all during continual rotation even on my ~very slow~ computer! Now I just wanna run around in there!:D
I always love the quality of your work and would love to see more of it here anytime, bring it on!:D
Thanks for the links above too!
- 3dvisuals dude |
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