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Scale and move - mind of its own or is it me?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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Scale and move - mind of its own or is it me? // Roundtable
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 4, 2007, 3:28pm
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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I'm sure it's me and if anyone can tell me what I'm doing wrong I will be eternally grateful as this is driving me loopy...
About to start my first full model in workspace rather than just fiddling. Drop in a cube, sweep top face up. So far so good. Now the fun begins: In the grid snap and point edit snap settings (which in an ideal world would show together by default but, hey, that's a different topic), no mater what I set on, off, by how much, etc, etc, etc, I just can't seem to get it to move or scale by that amount or consistently. I want to move my face by .1 of a unit. The feedback in the info panel shows it's moving practically freely, until it gets near the original face when it leaps to it and clings on for dear life! No matter what I move or scale, it's not a .1 increment. I can't find squiddly about it in the manual.
How, oh how, do I set this up to just move and scale in a logical and consistent fashion? I hate to say "like we used to" but, err, like we used to.
As no-one else seems to have mentioned it I'm sure it's just me with something set wrong but any advice on what it could possibly be will be greatly received as I don't want to go back to Model side unless I absolutely have to as thats regression, not progress!
Any replies that suggest delving into the LE will be politely ignored! :)
Thanks |
Post by stan // Jun 4, 2007, 3:55pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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first open the LE..just kidding :rolleyes:
it seems you have to set it each time to every new selection.. keeping the 'point edit snappimg' panel open is important..select a facw then go to the panel click set..then go back and move it.
I find selecting in workspace bad..if I want to move a face it must be visible.so you can click on it, not realy how I work, prefering the old way where you didn't have to click on the face to move it, just to select it..it might work with the edit widget but I put in my custom one from 7.11 and snapping doesn't work with it..
hope that helped abit , it doesn't seem to work every time or in the axis I want or very wel in general l:cool: |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 4, 2007, 4:18pm
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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I'm not clicking on the face to move it a-la the Normal Sweep tool, I'm talking the regular rectangle-select-and-move-tools.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
So, anyone recognise this and know what to do? Please! |
Post by clintonman // Jun 4, 2007, 4:32pm
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clintonman
Total Posts: 304
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...
I want to move my face by .1 of a unit. The feedback in the info panel shows it's moving practically freely, until it gets near the original face when it leaps to it and clings on for dear life! No matter what I move or scale, it's not a .1 increment. I can't find squiddly about it in the manual.
...
Thanks
I would use grid snapping with the point edit snapping turned off. If you want to move relative ( say from 5.23 to 5.33) to the starting point uncheck the offset. If you want to move in absolute space ( like 5.23 to 5.3 or 5.4 etc) check offset.
Edit: I think I remember there was a "sensitivity" setting to make the snapping more pronounced. By default it is a little soft. I'll see if I can find it. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 4, 2007, 11:12pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Also you guys might want to look at the: "Show hidden lines" and "Show Back Faces" options on the settings tab - scene panel.
Those will let you select faces that are inside your object or for some reason don't want to select.
-Jack. |
Post by rrf // Jun 5, 2007, 3:35am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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WWOTW,
I'm not quite sure what you mean...I just tried moving a face by the .1 you mentioned (on a cube, and sphere) and there was no problem. I didn't have any snapping on - maybe that's why....I know sometimes the dropdowns kind of 'hide' an 'on' snapping button and I have to go into the drop down to turn it off - also, (if I'm even getting close to understanding..) you can try setting 'edge pts' to a higher number - when in 'inference snapping' mode the move should snap to those.
Don't know if this helps - hope it does,
rf |
Post by rrf // Jun 5, 2007, 3:51am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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An Update -
Try setting the 'edge pts' to 10 - it's off by .003, but pretty close to your .1 pre-requisite.
Again, hope this helps,
rf |
Post by rrf // Jun 5, 2007, 3:59am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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Oops, it looks like it's all relative to the size when you use edge pts...:o
rf |
Post by TomG // Jun 5, 2007, 4:38am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Point Edit Snapping will snap to edges, faces etc, so disable that.
Grid snapping will lock things to particular units. Now, it will let you move freely in between those units, but will snap to the unit as it gets close to it, rather like snapping in a 2D app (so it no longer "jumps" in sudden increments, but moves smoothly, then snaps to a value as it nears that value).
Also, it seems to snap to the values in the real world, not relative to the face. So if you set increments in X movement of 0.5, your face will move freely from 0.1 to 0.4. At close to 0, say less than 0.1, it will snap to 0. At close to 0.5, say above 0.4, it will snap to 0.5. Once you move to 0.6 or so, it will begin to move freely again, until you get close to 1.0 at which point it snaps to 1.0.
Note that this is truely "grid snapping" - you are snapping to a point on a grid, rather than limiting your movement amounts to predefined amounts, so it is different from how tS used to do it.
For moving a face by a set value, I'd just overtype the value in the Info Panel as a first thought.
Point Edit snapping is entirely new, and is specifically for snapping to vertices, edges, faces, inference lines, etc. Not at all what you are looking to do here.
As far as I know at present, there is no equivalent tool to the old one, which is "move from a starting place only in particular increments".
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // Jun 5, 2007, 4:45am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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EDIT
In fact, just turn off offset and it should snap relative to its first location, problem solved :)
EDIT - Turn off offset shoud work, but you can also use the approach below, but just turning off offset is easier:
I take it back, you can use the current snap tools to achieve this.
Under "Offset", enter the starting location of your face or edge. Now everything will snap in units set in the snap tool, relative to that starting value.
So if your face is at -1.467 in the x, and you want to move in increments of 0.1, set snap to 0.1, offset on, x offset to -1.467, and now as you approach -1.567, it will snap, and at -1.367, an -1.067, and so on.
In between snaps, you will still have free move.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 5, 2007, 5:54am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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Holy %^&*! That sounds excessively overly complex for something so simple (or, at least, should be).
Thanks for the detailed input Tom, I'll give it a whirl in a bit and report back.
(If you hear screaming it means I didn't understand!) |
Post by TomG // Jun 5, 2007, 6:02am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Nah, it's only complex as I was explaining everything, including unrelated tools. The final answer is simple
1. Activate Grid Snap, and in the Grid Snap panel disable the Offset parameter. Set the snap value you want in the Grid Snap panel.
And you are done :) There's only one extra step in there compared to old tS, which is disabling the Offset parameter (which will stay off so no extra step in future).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by JPSofCA // Jun 5, 2007, 7:09am
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JPSofCA
Total Posts: 300
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Now, while this thread is still active I thought I'd go experiment with these tools a little for the first time (in a focused manner). I'm curious...are the Grid Snap and Point Edit Snap tools totally seperate entities in that I'm wondering do they ever work complimentary to one another?
-----
This not related to my initial inquiry, I enabled Grid Snap, then I swept and slowly moved a face from a cube - I didn't notice it snapping at any of the 0.5 increments that Grid Snap was set to. But I did come to see that Point Edit Snap worked on the swept face (although I don't completely understand its interface yet, this is a good thing: it means lots of function).
So am I correct to summarize that Grid Snap pretty much works on only existing geometry, and that Point Edit Snap is the only thing that will function for sweeps, tips, bevels and the like?
Also...
Note that this is truely "grid snapping" - you are snapping to a point on a grid, rather than limiting your movement amounts to predefined amounts, so it is different from how tS used to do it.
I'm glad they took this approach. :)
~ I just went and tried even more. Wow! Very powerful tools. Excellent job Caligari! |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 5, 2007, 7:29am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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It's almost working properly now! Thanks Tom. There is still something that doesn't make sense and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words I'm decorating this post with screen caps!
The move amount now works the way I'd expect. Hurrah! The SCALE tool, however, does not. these are my settings:
6643
(even taking into account the scale settings error as outlined in the bugs section)
Now using these settings, try this: Drop a cube into workspace. Rectangle select top face and move it right down (0.050 in Z). Sweep. Move down one click, scale down one click, sweep, move up one click, scale up one click. Should give a straight edge, yes? Doesn't. Enter screen cap 2:
6644
What's have I missed? This is almost working properly, what am I missing to hit modelling nirvana? |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 7, 2007, 12:22am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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So is it just me that's getting these obscure results then????? |
Post by Tiles // Jun 7, 2007, 1:26am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Haven't reached this tools yet. Still waiting for the patch before i touch TS 7.5 again. But your description and shots shows me stuff that shouldn't happen this way. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 8, 2007, 6:40am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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Sorry to keep bumping this thread but could someone, anyone, have a quick go at the moves outlined below and let me know if they get the same obscure results or not. If others get the same I'll know tS is being a pig, if not then I'll know there's something screwy my end.
Thanks in advance. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 9, 2007, 12:11am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Sorry Kate - I've never really used Snap tools before but from a quick play around this evening they seem to work as advertised for me. Somehow I doubt that this will help you though!
I did wonder what difference relative scale makes - ie, what about multiplying all three axis scales by ten, doing your modelling then dividing scales by ten. I really have no idea if that would make any difference - internally I imagine tS would just be shifting the decimal place - but I may affect how it gets displayed....? (OK this is all just wild guesses hear - I'm just trying to be helpfu) |
Post by Tiles // Jun 9, 2007, 1:33am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Have finally found some time to reproduce. Success. I confirm your behaviour, oink oink ;)
And stumbled across the sweeping issue. Sweeping is the key here. Currently you cannot really define the amount it is sweeping. The amount to sweep has currently its own mind, a very random one. Sweep is an unfinished tool.
Try this to see what i mean. Make a standard cube. Now pick a front face and sweep it. Then click the top face and sweep it. Results in two different sweep amounts. I get 1 for the front face, and 0.204 for the top face. When i sweep the top segment again, it will add 0.204. But when i move the swept segment around i will get a completely different result for sweep then. And yes, i have left point edit before i did it.
And that's what happens with you. Moving your sweeped segment down changes the amount it will sweep for the next time. With no control about the amount then, even with snapping. And that's why your lines will never align. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 12, 2007, 2:47am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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Thanks Tiles. So the sweep tool is to blame? Ah ha! I haven't been able to call up any settings for it and it's more of a hinderance than a help (read, unuseable!) working this way so I'll just keep my fingers crossed that this quirk is addressed in the forthcoming patch.
Thanks for your time |
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