|
|
Use of 3D input devices
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Use of 3D input devices // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Jun 16, 2007, 2:01am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
I have raved about the use of 3D devices in tS and I cannot thing of any other time in Caligari's history where such a device would be more useful than now, what with the power of the workspace.
We have a plug in for the model side that is years old but actually works pretty good with 3D connexions device and it was said that it would not be too hard to implement it for workspace but so far no word.
So, I thought it might be worth getting some feedback, after all-this may be a real minority and not worth the time to develop it but with the space navigator costing the same (or less) as a quality mouse, maybe it is time that changed anyway.
Please not that option 1 means basic functionality as soon as possible but with more functionality added later....:) |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 12:11am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
So, looking at the initial results-I am the only one with a 3D input device (who voted)...:confused:
Most would rather wait until it is supported before getting one, and there are almost as many who have no interest in using such a device.
I would be interested to know why that group are dismissive of using a 3D input device. Not being argumentative but curious as to wether you have tried one and didn't like it or simply haven't tried one (or a good one) yet.
To be honest, I would have chosen option 3 as well and it was a leap of faith getting a Space Navigator but I wouldn't be without it now in model side. It is just one more reason not to use workspace though...:o |
Post by Heidi // Jun 18, 2007, 6:40am
|
Heidi
Total Posts: 335
|
So, looking at the initial results-I am the only one with a 3D input device (who voted)...
Not anymore :D
Being able to use the stylus for weight painting, and PE would be WONDERFUL! |
Post by hemulin // Jun 18, 2007, 6:44am
|
hemulin
Total Posts: 1058
|
Unfortunately you were right in your first post. You are a minority... :rolleyes: |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 6:55am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Hope not but I am actually suprised to see some of the names that are sating they have no interest in using a 3D input device. Wizard? I thought you were more experimental than that...;)
Thanks for the support Heidi so that makes one Beta tester and one ex Beta with such a device now...it is a start. |
Post by Emma // Jun 18, 2007, 7:31am
|
Emma
Total Posts: 344
|
This small interest is wondering me too. Maybe it is because there was some service done on the websit over the weekend and so most didn't consider to visit here ? So during the next days voting may change ?
Think as soon as the first one will show what and how things can be done with such a 3D device, there will be a run on it.
To bad that Wigand's Joystick/Joypad interface doesn't run anymore with 7.5, would have been a good start trying such a 3D equipment. |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 8:40am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Think as soon as the first one will show what and how things can be done with such a 3D device, there will be a run on it.
I posted a simple video of me zooming around an object in model side while in PE mode and it was met with a lot of positivity which is why I am suprised by the relative lack of feedback here. I can only imagine how powerful it would be in workspace and there is the irony; no one will be able to show it's potential in workspace because it cannot be used there at the moment...:o
This device cost £45 delivered, is an amazing device for the money and built like a piece of Nasa equipment. Caligari have to make time (and spend some money I guess) to get it into workspace and they are not likely to do that if there is a real minority interest.
If that were the case then I can only hope some owner that can write code would get hold of the freely available SDK from 3Dconnections and write the necessary profile. I am happy to test any such software but for the life of me I could never code.....sorry. |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 9:04am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Anyone on that ever growing list of 'no interest in using a 3D input device' care to share their reasons why. No obligation at all but you took the time to vote and I am just curious. Pretty sure Madmouse will add one to option 4 when his credit card cools off.
I have explained why I think it would be useful for tS and I have one right here and can see the potential benefit both in modelling and realtime navigation. We all have our own way of working but I believe choice is good and at the moment, if I base my workflow around this device, I cannot really move over to workspace...so I have no choice but to work in model or see this collect dust...:o
As I said...just curious.
That video is here is anyone wants to watch it again;
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/attachment.php?attachmentid=4662&d=1172936910
And guys I am not moaning here but I contacted 3Dconnexions about tS support and they were very interested in the new workspace and realtime rendering, so I put them in touch with Caligari and left it at that...as far as I can tell they simply forward the SDK to interested parties for them to integrate.
If Caligari have already written something and want me to test it...well you know where I am....then again, wouldn't that make me a beta tester..:rolleyes: |
Post by Délé // Jun 18, 2007, 9:24am
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
I voted for "I am considering...". It does look very cool for flying through tP scenes but I'm still not convinced that it would be any faster or easier for modeling or working on scenes. I know your video was just a quick test and you haven't used it much but it actually looked slower then the widget to me. So while it's a "neat" device, I still question it's actual usefulness vs. cost.
So I'm leaning toward not ever purchasing a device like that unless I'm shown an actual benefit that is worth the cost.
Edit: Now if there was a way to record the camera movements with that device, it might increase the usefulness a bit more. |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 9:42am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Fair points Dele but consider this; When you are in edit mode, and I mean really deep in edit mode working on some intricate detail, what do you do when you need to change your viewpoint of the model?
I guess you move your mouse to the widget, make your move and go back to editing hoping that you didn't click elsewhere and lose your selection. Imagine a sculptor who has a switch on the wall across the room from his clay to rotate his sculpt. Every time he needs to change approach to sculpting he has to walk across the room, flick the switch to rotate it then walk back possibly losing his focus but definitely extending his work time by hours, maybe days overall.
So imagine your eye sweeping around the object, zooming in, panning etc. without ever having to move your mouse off the area you are working on. Do that a lot when you are working and it really speeds up your workflow. In the video I posted I was a little rough with the navigation which is silky smooth after a bit of practice and the mouse only moves to change PE function which I guess you could hot key anyway.
And that is the basic functionality I am talking about, other apps configure the device to physically move and rotate the object. Finally, visit the 3Dconnexion site and watch this demo that does a fly/walkthrough of a building using the device...it might as well be an advert for trueplay;
http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/3aaa.php
I never take a 'sales pitch' approach around here but I am genuinely amazed at the power of this device and really feel that it would be of benefit to tS users.
If we ever get basic support I promise to post a video of it in use for the benefit of others...:D |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 18, 2007, 3:01pm
|
TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
|
Anyone on that ever growing list of 'no interest in using a 3D input device' care to share their reasons why.
Sure. I work in traditional four view, I don't use one 3D view for modelling, therefore it has little benefit to me on that front. Also, trueSpace is but one thing I use my computer for, it is not a dedicated 3D creation area, and I don't want to have additional clutter on my desk just for one program when the mouse works fine and is universal across all the things I use my computer for.
Probably not the response you wanted Paul but it is an honest one. |
Post by Improv // Jun 18, 2007, 6:16pm
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Also, trueSpace is but one thing I use my computer for, it is not a dedicated 3D creation area, and I don't want to have additional clutter on my desk just for one program when the mouse works fine and is universal across all the things I use my computer for.
It's a USB device, isn't it. Just unplug it and put it away till you need it. Not really a big deal. :confused: |
Post by splinters // Jun 18, 2007, 9:06pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Probably not the response you wanted Paul but it is an honest one.
I know what you are saying WWOTW and appreciate your support, but that is exactly the sort of answer I wanted...honest and clear...:D
Still, at the back of my mind I wonder how many users would model in a perspective view using this device just for its intuitiveness or indeed use it to navigate through scenes, possibly even recording the flythrough to playback in trueplay for clients.
Regarding it's use in just one program, there are many that support it..3D apps indeed, but also Office, Picture viewer, Google Earth, SketchUp and Photoshop 7 through to CS3 just to name a few. I find it quite handy when navigating around large images in Photoshop while I have my Wacom pen in the other hand doing touch up and editing.
Bottom line here, there are those who would use it and those that would not but there seems to be a good number that are interested. The possibilities for creation and navigation in trueSpace could be endless but until it is supported we will never really know.
I can still see these bundled with copies of tS in the future and labelled the trueSpace Navigator...:D |
Post by Bobbins // Jun 18, 2007, 9:54pm
|
Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
|
I gave a 3D input device a test drive a few years back in a CAD/CAM environment - the device in question had six axis of motion. I gave it about three weeks - maybe a month - and never got comfortable with it. At the end I still I found it quicker and easier to use a mouse and keyboard shortcuts so I'd have to say that 3D input devices and me are not a good match, hence my lack of enthusiasm. |
Post by prodigy // Jun 18, 2007, 9:55pm
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
to share my opinion...
I think is not a bad idea.. but for me living outside USA, i never find this on a market (or in a near future) .. more fair can be a good joystick suppor. i think is the same thing.. just need to setup any axis or buttons from your joystick or 3d navigation and voilá!!
So anybody with a 3d navigation can use it.. (customize if its needed).. and others can flythroug or walktrough with a simple joystick or gamepad..
Just a thought :D |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 18, 2007, 10:22pm
|
TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
|
It's a USB device, isn't it. Just unplug it and put it away till you need it. Not really a big deal.
You've still got to keep it somewhere. And are you telling me that changing over your input device everytime you change the program(s) you are using wouldn't get incredibly annoying and tedious very quickly? No thanks, I've got enough PITA's in my life without voluntarily adding in another! |
Post by JPSofCA // Jun 18, 2007, 11:34pm
|
JPSofCA
Total Posts: 300
|
Yeah, I thought I'd get a real kick out of my "Strategic Commander (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20010809/swsc02.jpg)" too, but it never took off for me. :rolleyes:
I'm okay with the mouse. |
Post by splinters // Jun 19, 2007, 12:18am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Thanks for the feedback guys, really appreciate the thoughts on this one. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 19, 2007, 6:26am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Paul. I chose the 'not interested' option because it was the most appropriate to me - it is however not an accurate statement about my position. It's not that I'm not interested as much as it is that I don't know much about the topic.
Several factors influenced my choice:
Firstly, I operate on a very limited budget - funds for extra hardware are hard to come by and any money that does come available either services existing computer purchase arrangements or goes to big ticket items on my shopping list - external back-up HD, another gig of RAM and a couple of flatscreen monitors to reduce the radiation I'm currently exposing myself to!
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I'm very happy with my existing methodology - I'm right handed but use the mouse in my left hand and my right hand runs hotkeys - lots of hot keys. I generally use only one view at a time and have perspective and front back top side views all hotkeyed - one motion changes my view. I use coordinate system hot keys and object, move, rotate, scale, and PE, rectangle select, selection move, rotate, scale and remove function via hotkeys too.
I used to work in a busy callcentre for an electricity supplier - in order to minimise OOS/RSI problems I would operate the mouse left handed and the phone with my right hand. The left hand mouse, right hand hotkey works really well for me - I have a degree of ambidexrousness anyway as a guitarist and keyboardist - and I find this approach spreads the workload more evenly between both hands.
This set up works so well for me I'm not really motivated to try any other approach. Like they apparently say in the Army, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! I think that at the end of the day it's largely a case of the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know and I suspect that is also what lies behind the general response to your poll.
Hope this helps |
Post by Improv // Jun 20, 2007, 8:08pm
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
You've still got to keep it somewhere. And are you telling me that changing over your input device everytime you change the program(s) you are using wouldn't get incredibly annoying and tedious very quickly? No thanks, I've got enough PITA's in my life without voluntarily adding in another!
YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
If it's a big deal to you-so be it.
To me it seems trivial. Besides don't you have other input devices that you could keep plugged in? Right now I have an optical mouse and an Intuos tablet that usually just stay plugged in. There are also USB hubs (if you get a decent one) and USB PCI cards. Right now I have around 8 USB ports.
If I DO need to unplug, which is rare, I can unplug my Cubase SX USB dongle (never used with TrueSpace), Inkjet USB printer and external backup USB drive.
As for keeping it somewhere, that's what cupboards and closets are for ! :-) |
Post by bill // Jun 20, 2007, 10:24pm
|
bill
Total Posts: 114
|
I have a SpaceBall that I would love to be able to use in trueSpace. I use it for all my other 3D programs such as Sketchup, TurboCad, AutoCad, and Inventor. I find it extremely useful and easy to use. |
Post by snewnham // Jun 22, 2007, 2:40am
|
snewnham
Total Posts: 14
|
I have a SpaceBall that I would love to be able to use in trueSpace. I use it for all my other 3D programs such as Sketchup, TurboCad, AutoCad, and Inventor. I find it extremely useful and easy to use.
Bill:
trueBall (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~snewnham/trueBall/trueBall.html)
This is the plugin that Splinters refers to in his first post on this thread. It currently only works on the modelling side of trueSpace 7.x, but will at least allow you to use your SpaceBall there.
I'm patiently awaiting the release of an SDK for trueSpace 7.x to allow me to get this working on the Workspace side... |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 22, 2007, 2:58am
|
TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
|
Besides don't you have other input devices that you could keep plugged in? Right now I have an optical mouse and an Intuos tablet that usually just stay plugged in. There are also USB hubs (if you get a decent one) and USB PCI cards. Right now I have around 8 USB ports.
I think you are missing the point. Yes, I have a mouse and a tablet - mouse is used in every programme, tablet is used in lots - I'm talking about desk space for one item to be used in one programme occasionally. Available USB ports aren't an issue, I have plenty spare, but you suggested connecting and disconnecting it every time I use and shut down tS if I didn't want it permanently on my desk. Maybe I'm just phenomenally lazy but you try it for a month, I would put money on you being sick to the back teeth of doing it before the time was up.
So, I'll pass on adding another piece of hardware I won't use thanks! |
Post by splinters // Jun 22, 2007, 3:20am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Poll closes soon guys...last chance to vote but I am glad to see that the 'want to use such a device' are winning with even more adding to those who have a 3D device wanting to use it. Hopefully Caligari are watching this thread so they know it is not just me who want it...:D |
Post by bill // Jun 22, 2007, 4:27am
|
bill
Total Posts: 114
|
Bill:
trueBall (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Esnewnham/trueBall/trueBall.html)This is the plugin that Splinters refers to in his first post on this thread. It currently only works on the modelling side of trueSpace 7.x, but will at least allow you to use your SpaceBall there.
I'm patiently awaiting the release of an SDK for trueSpace 7.x to allow me to get this working on the Workspace side...
Thanks Snewnham. I do have the trueball plugin. But as you said, it only works on the modeling side. |
Post by splinters // Jul 2, 2007, 4:20am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Dang, even Poser have support for the space navigator now...
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/index.cfm?email&NewsID=8207
43% of those voted are waiting for Caligari to support 3D input devices before investing.....catch 22??
"The 3Dconnexion product line is supported by more than 100 3D applications, including Adobe Acrobat 3D, Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended and all of the top-tier 3D CAD applications". |
Post by JPSofCA // Jul 2, 2007, 10:24am
|
JPSofCA
Total Posts: 300
|
43% of those voted are waiting for Caligari to support 3D input devices before investing.
In such a device.... |
Post by splinters // Jul 2, 2007, 12:16pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Thankyou...;) |
Post by Steinie // Jul 2, 2007, 2:19pm
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/reviews/hardware/other/spacenavigator
Would be nicer if 3Dconnexion wrote the plugin. Seems they have a problem with other software too. |
Post by splinters // Jul 2, 2007, 9:26pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Yup, that review pretty much sums it up (although CS2 is supported!). Great device with oodles of potential but not enough 'support'...a bit like trueSpace really. Maybe that is why I thought they would make a great combination; the device is pretty unique looking for an equally unique program to really show it off. I kinda hoped trueplay/Workspace might be a good vehicle for it.....:o |
|
