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Experiences with bones
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They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Experiences with bones // Roundtable
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 17, 2007, 3:14am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I'm curious about other people experiences with the new bones and skeletons. How are other people finding it when they come to rig a character?
Earlier versions of trueSpace were somewhat notorious when it comes to the bones systems - how do you think the new ones measure up?
My experiences have been frustrating thus far but this may be down to my inexperience. Building the skeleton is fine, setting joint limits is delightfully simple and a joy to use - attaching the skeleton to a skin works fine - with some hitches. Like a vertex from the characters thumb associating itself with the spine instead of the thumb bone - how does one reassign that vertex to the correct bone when it's inside the mesh where the vertex paint tool doesn't seem to reach it?
Earlier versions of tS bones gave a range of selection tools that solved this problem - individual vertex selection with rectangle or lasso for example.
Additionally, even if I could get my character attached correctly to the skeleton I'm finding the IK handles and locks system very confusing.
The manual videos are all very well when working with a simple mesh but one bone for the entire hand simply does not come close to meeting my needs.
Finally I have also encountered a lot of trouble with the Limb Library system - which looks fantastic on paper but I can't seem to get it to operate as advertised. Eg, I make an arm, add finger bones and set up approximate joint limits - save it to a limb library as per the manual. Load the supplied biped spine object and double click my fingered arm in the library as per the manual. This action should add two arms, one a mirror of the other but I keep getting two arms with one arm reversed :( . Further to this, should I attempt to adjust the position of a joint - say the neck joint between the supplied biped torso and the supplied 'head' the skeleton explodes!
When I first started exploring 3d graphics 5 or 6 years ago I found a free program downloadable from the net called Anim8or. Whilst it lacked a lot of sophistication and was rather buggy it's bones worked with beautiful simplicity - I was able to build a fairly hi res character mesh, rig it, assign vertices as required and simply pose my character. I made a two minute animation of this character playing a guitar. To my eternal sadness I've never been able to do something like this using trueSpace. Now, even with the new bones toolset I'm still unable to get my character from the traditional 't' pose with arms out stretched to simply sitting down with no animation - just a static pose.
The question is, what am I missing? You've all seen my work and know that I'm not afraid of complex models and scenes yet after days and days of experimenting I still can't get my model to sit down! It's not often I lose heart and get despondent with trueSpace but I'm just about ready to eat my mouse in sheer frustration.
Why can't tS come with a full skeleton, set up with a useful selection of handles and locks and joints with preset movement limits that we could then adjust to suit out model with the shape skeleton tool?
I'm a bit reluctant to post this message as the answer is a good news - bad news thing. The good news is that I'm just an idiot and I'm missing a basic step somewhere - the bad news is that dispite all the enhancements to the tS bones system it's still not able to easily pose a medium density character mesh in a static pose. Please tell me it's the first answer! |
Post by Délé // Jun 17, 2007, 5:43am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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The weight painting is a problem area for me too. The new bones are great and the IK handles work brilliantly, but I hope to see better, more accurate weight painting tools in the future. I can get ok deformation now, but I have a lot of trouble getting the deformation exactly how I want.
The limbs library is very cool but there are definitely mirror problems going on. I'm not sure why the standard limbs from the biped library seem to mirror correctly, but if you make changes and save it as a new limb it doesn't. Seems like something strange is going on there.
Not sure what you mean about the head exploding though. Moving joints seems to work as it should so far as I see.
I think the new skeleton system is a great first implementation, but there are still things that could be improved, and I'm sure will be in the future. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 17, 2007, 6:07am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks Délé - at least it's nice to know it's not just me!
Re the exploding head: Drag and drop supplied biped torso to workspace, drag and drop supplied 'head' limb to neck jnt of torso. 'Head' limb joins torso - all good. Activate shape skeleton tool and try to adjust position of neck joint - jnt explodes! The object representing the jnt scales massively all out of proportion when you move the widget.
After venting my spleen earlier I decided to simply scrap my existing character mesh and create a new one from scratch, keeping it low poly. I've not had much joy there either - tried using the new mirror modeller which does some things brilliantly and is just impossible with other things - I've crashed tS 3 times tonight and haven't been able to build a simple lo poly character mesh beyond the waist line. I know this is my inexperience with the new tools - I've yet to learn the idiosyncracies - but I know that if I'd been using the tS 6.6 toolset ( I'm very aware of the idiosyncracies there and know the workarounds) I'd have acheived a lot more than I have today.
I'm going to call it a night and try again tomorrow with a fresh approach. |
Post by frootee // Jun 17, 2007, 10:40am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi Wizard and Dele. Does this warrant a post in the Bug forum?
Frootee |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // Jun 17, 2007, 1:33pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Wizard, I haven't really had time to mess with TS since the patch came out, too busy with real life, but it's not you, it is TS.
While the weight painting tool does an admirable job, I've noticed that it's next to impossible to get into small areas where a "fold" in the mesh at least partially covers up another part of the mesh.
I've also run into problems with once I have a skeleton inside a mesh, when I'm trying to pose it, the skeleton detaches from the mesh and while the mesh itself still moves, the skeleton becomes frozen in place! This has even happened with the supplied meshes with skeletons already in them. So that pretty much makes it obvious that TS still has some "bugs" that need to be ironed out. |
Post by TomG // Jun 18, 2007, 5:33am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
Sorry to hear about some initial frustrations with the bones. Do note that you seem to be experiencing a situation that no-one else is seeing, with the exploding skeleton - this suggests an installation error of some sort (see later in message!). I must admit that I am able to do things in 5 minutes with the new bones that would take me 3 days in the old bones, and so far am not experiencing any bugs and crashes - my only "problems" would be visualising how to set up locks and handles to achieve particular effects, since they are a new way of thinking for me.
To try to help with some specific issues:
For mirroring in the limbs library (reversed arm), do remember to set the symmetry for the Tags on the body. Also be sure to set the symmetry correctly for the limb you are storing when you store it (the joint should have an appropriate Tag and symmetry before you click and drag to the library).
While the skeleton in the videos has just one bone for the hand, the same principles will apply to the branching bones in the hand as for the rest of the skeleton, so once you have handles and locks working for the arm and shoulder joint etc, you can extend those same principles into making the hand work as required. It is easier however to start with less in order to show princinples, which is why this approach is followed. Once you know joint limits for the shoulder, and how a lock works on the shoulder, the same approach works for the joint at the base of a finger, etc.
For the skeleton exploding, I am not seeing anything like this here - I add Biped Spine (drag into workspace), I double click on the head to add the head, I use Shape Skeleton tool, and I can move the neck joints around no problem. That sounds like your workflow, so sounds like you may need a reinstall of tS7.51, or to follow the delete default.ctx and .js that I have seen elsewhere. This bug is definitely NOT being seen elsewhere though, so that makes it odd - also contact tech support directly in this case, since it is an exceptional kind of bug that sounds like it may be specific to your set up.
For the complete skeletons with handles, there are several in there - Tank Girl and Bobby in the Characters library are set up with skeletons and IK handles. Naturally just which IK handles you want and what you want them to do varies for each character (or even for the scene you are using the character in), so there is no "complete" set up as it depends on your needs. So the Bobby character has a "complete" set up in that it uses all the tools available in the skeleton system for rigging, like handles and locks and preset joint limts, but that set up will not be ideal for all cases of course.
He has no hands, but those can be added on using the Build Skeleton tool (though I would recommend learning the tools on a simpler skeleton before going on to add more joints and complexity to it, which is why Bobby is provided as he is without hands). It is very easy to share skeletons, so I am sure we will soon see a collection of skeletons and variations in rigging for those skeletons that will meet many situations - the ones in the install libraries are just the beginning!
The "Skin Weights Clean Up" may have an effect on areas where vertices are "inside" the mesh, it was designed to handle a situation with an import from Poser that was kind of similar. It's a parameter in the Weight Paint tools, let me know if it does help.
Hopefully some things here will make life easier and solve some of the issues you are having!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Bobbins // Jun 18, 2007, 5:49am
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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Wizard, when you try to adjust the position of a joint and the skeleton 'explodes' - do any of the following apply?
Are you using the 'Shape skeleton' tool?
Has the skin been attached to the skeleton?
Has a default pose been set? |
Post by Heidi // Jun 18, 2007, 6:23am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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attaching the skeleton to a skin works fine - with some hitches. Like a vertex from the characters thumb associating itself with the spine instead of the thumb bone - how does one reassign that vertex to the correct bone when it's inside the mesh where the vertex paint tool doesn't seem to reach it?
I found a way to reach those stubborn verts...
Set the default pose, then use dynapose to move the figure around until those stray vertices show up. You can really distort the figure until the verts come out where you can reach them. While still posed, used weight paint. You can watch the vertices relax into place. When you're done, click on reset to return to the default pose. :)
Incidentally, I've found that most of my stray verts are weight painting from a different bone that hasn't been completely erased. |
Post by frootee // Jun 18, 2007, 6:30am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi Heidi.
COOL! Thanks!
Frootee |
Post by Délé // Jun 18, 2007, 6:33am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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For mirroring in the limbs library (reversed arm), do remember to set the symmetry for the Tags on the body. Also be sure to set the symmetry correctly for the limb you are storing when you store it (the joint should have an appropriate Tag and symmetry before you click and drag to the library).
I really don't think the mirroring with the library is working properly Tom. Even in your video the limb mirrors incorrectly. It looks like it is mirroring in both the X axis and Z axis. This causes the mirrored limb to flip upside down. I see no work around for this. I thought the default biped arms were mirroring properly, but upon closer inspection those are mirroring upside down too. Unfortunately that makes the limb library very limited right now. |
Post by TomG // Jun 18, 2007, 8:28am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi Dele,
It's possible there is a bug, just wanted to ensure that correct workflow was followed in getting everything set up (always the first step in seeing if the behavior is a bug!).
If indeed Tags are set correctly as noted, then it can be posted as a bug and we can investigate some more :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by tomasb // Jun 18, 2007, 10:21am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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When symmetry between limb and joint does not match, limb is mirrored around joint X axis. You can get proper rotation for mirroring by rotating joint using joint limits rotation ring handle. Once you get your skeleton joint rotated correctly, adding corrected limbs will work OK. |
Post by frootee // Jun 18, 2007, 10:30am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi tomas. Is there an easier way to align the joint and limb axes for proper alignment? Or is this the preferred method?
TIA
Frootee |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 19, 2007, 5:50am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Ok - I think I may have been overdoing things - I'm trying to learn trueSpace's new tricks as well as MojoWorlds old tricks all at the same time and I think I'm suffering a degree of burnout! The cure? I spent the whole day yesterday watching season 3 of Babylon 5 on DVD and didn't even check my emails - this is a radical move for me :D
Tom, thanks for your great response. Re the limb symmetry I was extremely careful to follow the manual/videos and paid specific attention to the limb tags and symmetry definers. I did find that rotating the backward joint as TomasB suggested solves that particular problem.
The exploding neck jnt occurs when I drag and drop the head limb to the torso limb - I haven't tried the same thing using the double click technique as you describe. I should also mention that other jnts moved as one would expect - only the neck jnt went strange.
I installed tS 7.51 straight over tS 7.5 if that's relevent
Re the suggestion of using Tank Girls or Bobby's skeleton.... erm, what can I say except 'D'oh! I should have thought of that myself!!:o :o That's embarressing!
@Bobbins -
Are you using the 'Shape skeleton' tool? Yes
Has the skin been attached to the skeleton? No
Has a default pose been set? No
@ Heidi - great suggestion and one I already tried - it worked as you describe for the most part but there was at least one mis-assigned vertex that I couldn't actually find! I'm wondering if adding the skin to the skeleton bone by bone rather than all at once may give more predictable results
I'm sure that many of my problems are also related to my workflow. Like many other folk I had a dim opinion of esarlier tS bones (tS 5x, 6x) but after extended perserverence I discovered that you could do useful things with them if you did everything in the right order.
I haven't yet fired tS 7.51 up since my last session but I'll definitely perservere and if necessary try a re-install. I want to try using Tank Girls or Bobby's skeleton as a starting point and I also want to try building my own skele from scratch - the more I experiment with it the better I'll get.
I hope I didn't come across as too grouchy...... |
Post by blakeo // Jun 19, 2007, 11:03am
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blakeo
Total Posts: 214
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W!zard, just thought I'd mention that I get the 'Exploding skeleton' problem when trying to directly manipulate a joint, but from a different starting point...
Load TankGirl, for example, resize her smaller and then, using the dynapose tool, click a joint. Try to rotate it with the widget and .... bang! The explode effect seems inversely proportional to the amount of resize... make the skeleton bigger and witness and implode!
A similar bug existed in 7.5 whereby the joint/bone would revert to the original size rather than explode, and I reported it the bugs forum Here (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3285). This new effect is ten times worse. :mad:
Is this effect what is happening to you W!zard? FWIW I uninstalled 7.5 before installing 7.51, but I still have 7.11 on the system... |
Post by blakeo // Jun 19, 2007, 11:15am
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blakeo
Total Posts: 214
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...and regarding building a hand skeleton, I had success doing it like this picture (see below)
Starting from the wrist joint build out the skeleton for each finger in turn. Select the wrist joint each time you begin a new finger. The bone in the palm will look weird as you build the hand but when all 5 fingers are done it should be similar to this pic.
This was my first go at this so forgive me if there's more experienced 'boners' :p out there who know better. :)
Blakeo. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 19, 2007, 9:13pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hey thanks for that Blakeo - sounds like the same effect but you're getting it in quite a different way to me. I've not yet started tS to experiment further but I'm planning to do so tonight.
Re building the hand skele - your result looks pretty much like mine. I found that building it was a pleasure, as was setting jnt limits. Everything functioned as one would expect - actually better than I expected! I'm totally delighted with the skele construction tools in general - I only encountered problems after attaching skin to the skele.
I'm fairly confident that my workflow and inexperience contributed to those problems as well. |
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