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VRay
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Post by Tiles // Jun 21, 2007, 1:57am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I don't say it is all evil. TS 7.51 is at a good road. It is just ways not finished ;)
Of course you cannot render Vray or HDRI with TS 6.6. But luckily you can load TS 6.6 stuff into Modeler :)
I just wanted to explain what stops me personally from really using it at the moment. I simply get things done in TS 6.6 without switching to another software. Modeling in 7.5 is still no go for me because i work lots with Bevel and Sweep for example. And then i need a way to adjust the amount by values.
What makes 6.6 more useful for me than Modeler? Well, there are some finally broken down tools. UV Mapping Editor has such issues when i remember correct. Was the case in 7.11. Haven't bothered to check if it is still this way now. The old bones are finally broken in Modeler. I still use them in 6.6 for posing-modeling some organic shapes from time to time.
I can double click in the Object Info Panel. And the value is marked. An important issue for me because i work lots with values. Gimme half an hour in Modeler when i am at such a piece where i need to work with values, and i hate it this much with accurately dragging to pick the whole value that i close it and open up 6.6.
I have just a 19" CRT. Every pixel counts. Modeler has a bit less space. And finally, 6.6 doesn't load two other software packages. No bridge and no 7.51. Makes 200 MB more free ram :D |
Post by brotherx // Jun 21, 2007, 2:04am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Makes 200 MB more free ram :D
So buy more RAM...I priced some recently....it was 80 EURO (about 100 USD, 50 GBP) for 2 gb of DDR2-800....so don't go using that as an excuse...that's the price of an XBOX 360/PS3 Game or a DVD TV Boxset... |
Post by splinters // Jun 21, 2007, 3:27am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have just a 19" CRT. Every pixel counts. Modeler has a bit less space. And finally, 6.6 doesn't load two other software packages. No bridge and no 7.51. Makes 200 MB more free ram :D
Fair points but I had ts6.6 and 7.1 running for a while but since 7.5 the layout of model side is identical to 6.6. As for the extra Ram, I often turn the bridge off and work only in model but still with the benefit of HDRI and PSD output. If you have not used 7.5 then you cannot appreciate the beauty of the collapsing LE and stack to free up all your screen (and smaller icons)...and I have 19" TFT monitors but choose to have Photoshop/Explorer on one with tS on the other. If you know my past work then you know how quickly I can work with tS7.5 like this.
But this is all about preference and you need to be happy with what you use...:) |
Post by Humdinger // Jun 21, 2007, 3:52am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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This IS NOT a thread Hi-jacking. :D
But Prava got my attention.
RAYMAN I understand you totally! :)
I for myself aren't pleased with tS7+. As a hobbyiest it's not such a large problem but if you need a cg program for commercial work the new tS version is critiical to use. As final decision I had to switch some time ago to a new cg program and render combo.
Well, hope the best for trueSpace but it's still a looong way to go.
Wow and coming from a 'team' member no less.
Love honesty, always the best place to start thank you Prava.
As for me since I have so much time already committed to a huge project that involves TS 6.6 at every level I have decided that it makes the most sense to just finish what I have using TS 6.6 w/Motion Studio and wait.
For TS 7.6 and or 8 and or to move on to something else at that point.
This post would be so much longer but then it may get too personal.
But for the life of me I really wish I knew what Caligari was thinking when they did not consider vertex animation from TS 6.6 working with new tools in workspace. Yet at the same time offer no alternative from the 'home company'.
To think I have this great new bones system yet I can not take a vertex animated head created in say STM2 and attach it to a TS 7.5 skeleton and have it all animate together.
Is vertex animation that different between Model and Workspace..?
Since I am only using the demo does this also include vertex animation created with the Facial Animator..? As that would really make no sense.
Could it actually be harder to add such functionality than it was to add BVH and Collada support as was done with TS 7.51...?
And..no wait...I will stop. ;)
But once again thanks Prava.
Repeat - This is NOT A Hi-Jacking :D |
Post by brotherx // Jun 21, 2007, 4:27am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Actually it is, originally we were talking about vray and shiny things and somehow someone thought we were talking about how 'crap' truespace is, which of course it isn't...it's just not perfect but hey, nothing is....
so, let me ask, is it normal for a relatively simple scene to take over an hour to render in truespace 7.51 and Vray 1.51?
I'm assuming it is, at 800x600....with lots of shiny things :D
I just hope it looks ok so I can put it into the speed model challenge... |
Post by holm // Jun 21, 2007, 5:35am
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holm
Total Posts: 33
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The layout and workflow need some attention, yesterday I opened the Vray material Library and looked for a way to edit the material without having to paint an object then inspect it...still don't know how.
I think there is a way described in the manual. Undock the library and drag and drop the material to the material editor in workspace. Right, not the best solution at the moment ... |
Post by Emma // Jun 21, 2007, 6:16am
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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If you read throug lot's of posting you can again and again hear different kinds of complaints. Even in such a thread that was only about shiny things in VRay Why ?
For myself I'm a new trueSpace user while most have been working for long with 6.x or older. So almost all who changed to 7.x still think of it as working with 6.x or before. I don't, I work curiously through a program where I'm sure of that there will be things not working as supposed, but I also know that there is no software without any bugs, even if you pay more than 20 times the price of what trueSpace 7.x costs.
To me this seems to be the main source of many of those "unsatisfaction complaints". You can see and read in this forum the difference, the ones who "explore" 7.x and are of course detecting one or the other thing that doesn't work but who discover much more exciting things they talk about or show in this forum. Who then learn to use it and of course also learn one or the other "workaround".
So after all, to be fair, minimum to do is to read the manual, really complete and to use the power of the included videos. I'll bet no one can say how many hours you'll need to see all of them, or is there anyone who already watched them all:D I'm honest, I didn't see much of them myself so far !
To show what I mean take the VRay manual, look at page 13
EDIT : thanks 3dvisuals dude, manual I used was old one with 74 pages, version 1.51 has 94 pages and there it ispage 16 [I] as you said below :)
there it says Reset ..... in the upper part and explains that this way you can create a new material (didn't include the text so that you have to read it :D ). This is not to embaress anybody, it is just to show that on one side Caligari team has done it's job, but that on the other side we not always do so too :o including me !!! as I didn't read that page before above was asked how to get an initial material:o . Also used the "Inspect material" tool but after this question came up I asked myself if those guy from Caligary really did program it this way.
As I'm german I hope I expressed with the english words right and I didn't insult or embaress anyone, my intent was to encourage using of the manual in detail, experimenting, asking in this forum and than really at the end when nothing else helps complain.
Attached picture shows how it looks when you reset VRay material and then you can double click on the different shaders to start your own creation process. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 21, 2007, 7:47am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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If you read throug lot's of posting you can again and again hear different kinds of complaints. Even in such a thread that was only about shiny things in VRay Why ?
WHY ? !!! because you would not have Vray if some of the longer
users did not voice it some two years ago.
I know who the people were who did !
We were not talking about bugs .
TS 6.6 has bugs and we can live with bugs...
TS 7xx has great potential .....but the road is very long....
The world is not always nice and shiny and some people
who voice the problems are more " friends " then others
who see only the nice sides.
The technology behind TS 7 xx is good and that of Vray is excelent too..
its just the implementation ( and the UI belongs to that ) that
needs to be improved and that is our work .We MUST voice what
we dislike and point to problems when we find them .
Back to the topic : the biggest problem TS always had with textures was the lack of inspection tools or windows .... that was voiced in a review...
I think it was in 3D world (I must find the article ...its about 3-4 years ago ).
As I do not have the new 7.51 yet (opted for wait last month) I could be positively surprised that it now has ;) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 8:32am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Thank you Emma for your Vray input here and for gracefully returning to the Vray topic as well.
Somehow that "reset" feature shows on my page 16 in the manual, but even though I read the manual twice previously I must have flown right past it without noticing that at all. Thank you.
I wonder how much else I "flew over" while reading all these things now and absorbing all these videos (or attempting to)! I suppose in time we may all find there are many such things amid our current information overload which were right there in front of us all along. Not everything, of course, but undoubtedly many things nevertheless.
I believe within time that this Community itself will grow stronger through helping one another through these many transitions, the evidence of that is beginning to rapidly emerge here in virtually every section of the forums. I'm content to stumble through this all myself and help others where I can in the meantime accordingly.
The experience I've gained in the last two weeks here just from reading the helpful posts of many of you here at these forums toward others in the midst of their difficulties has had a rather profound effect on me as it no doubt has on others. Given that so many of us are in fact looking for help on so many simultaneous fronts I only hope that our related threads endeavor to focus on topic accordingly here, since we are each seeking help in specific threads where topic is all we have to go by in a sea of semi-related threads.
Thank you folks for your input here on Vray, it's been very helpful and I do hope you continue here with it.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by stan // Jun 21, 2007, 9:06am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splinters http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=39229#post39229)
The layout and workflow need some attention, yesterday I opened the Vray material Library and looked for a way to edit the material without having to paint an object then inspect it...still don't know how.
I think there is a way described in the manual. Undock the library and drag and drop the material to the material editor in workspace. Right, not the best
solution at the moment ...
after reading this I found a way to keep the material library where it should be, with the material editor..
it involves first dragging it from the library, then into the panel section..save your layout and a copy of default.ctx to ensure it stays that way. its not a perfect solution but it helps..
it's too bad they made vray render in another window, I find it extra work for nothing closing that window. especially when trying to render an object or area render testing material.:( also it would cover over the render icons in my layout so I moved them into the stack :rolleyes: |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 9:15am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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so, let me ask, is it normal for a relatively simple scene to take over an hour to render in truespace 7.51 and Vray 1.51?
I'm assuming it is, at 800x600....with lots of shiny things :D
I just hope it looks ok so I can put it into the speed model challenge...
Sorry Brotherx, I missed that question earlier just now.
In my limited experience... "yes"... definitely. Once you start getting into transparancies with even semi-complex objects and then introduce antialiasing levels and Global Illumination an hour at 800x600 can be normal or it can of course go much longer depending on complexity.
The results are "Madison Avenue" level though.:cool:
Pop a render in here OK? :D
Thanks,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 21, 2007, 1:23pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Sorry Brotherx, I missed that question earlier just now.
In my limited experience... "yes"... definitely. Once you start getting into transparancies with even semi-complex objects and then introduce antialiasing levels and Global Illumination an hour at 800x600 can be normal or it can of course go much longer depending on complexity.
The results are "Madison Avenue" level though.:cool:
Pop a render in here OK? :D
Thanks,
- 3dvisuals dude
I just had a render going on for 3days (in a well known professional landscaping program - external render engine ) it had heavy displacements
and caustics with glasslike shader I built myself and that was normal too
for a global Illuminated 1000 x1000....................
It all depends on the settings .. aliasing etc.
The best way to find a good compromise between rendertimes and
quality is to start very basic and then to turn on the goodies one by
one ..... that way you see what has little effect to image quality and
immense effect on render time .Or lets put it that way not everything
can be seen and some can only be felt
;) |
Post by brotherx // Jun 21, 2007, 9:59pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Pop a render in here OK? :D
- 3dvisuals dude
The render is over here: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=39270#post39270
I've just updated it as I wasn't happy with my previous render...this is a lot better I think... |
Post by weaveribm // Jun 21, 2007, 11:03pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Really nice models and especially renders brotherx
Could Lucite (our Perspex) be TrueSpace-lathed/machined to make lenses?
Or for a moulded-hood cockpit glass for a Spitfire :)
Perspex was chosen as the preferred material because
of its lightness in weight and good optical properties.
Also observations during the war of eye injuries to RAF personnel had shown that Perspex appeared inert within body tissues. These observations were reported at an early stage to Dr John Holt of ICI. The post war commercial development of Perspex had resulted in a quite different material from that of the war years but, to ICI's credit, they once again produced the high quality fighter aircraft Perspex which they called Transpex I.
...as a result of Britain's rearmament programme, ICI's total production of Perspex was reserved for the aircraft industry and the material was specifically developed for the use of fighter aircraft
http://www.lucitesolutions.com/casestudy.cfm?action=casestudy_view&id=221
"Lucite" is the brand name of a polyacrylic discovered by DuPont in 1931. Around the same time, an identical polyacrylic is developed by the Rohm & Haas Chemical Company and named "Plexiglas." In the UK and other European nations, it is generally known as "Perspex."
Sorry bro, working in medical research so a bit bonkers about Perspex and engineering :)
Peter |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:03pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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The render is over here: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=39270#post39270
I've just updated it as I wasn't happy with my previous render...this is a lot better I think...
Sweet!
Must have been done in by the Queen from the looks of it! ;)
I'm finally getting a handle on the great rendering capabilities of the GI in Vray1.5 too... I just LOVE this renderer!!!!!!!!!!
Here's a little present for you to put in your environment image slot for Vray GI... use it with very shiny objects and you'll love the effect... I made this image in Vue d'Esprit 4 and it is GREAT to use this way in Vray! Enjoy! :D
A Public Domain Image from 3dvisuals dude:
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:07pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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The best way to find a good compromise between rendertimes and quality is to start very basic and then to turn on the goodies one byone ..... that way you see what has little effect to image quality and
immense effect on render time .Or lets put it that way not everything
can be seen and some can only be felt
;)
Well said and definitely true. It took me a while with Vray to understand that but it was the key to everything else that followed, now I can have a blast with Vray in a "reasonable timeframe!"
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by brotherx // Jun 21, 2007, 11:11pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Could Lucite (our Perspex) be TrueSpace-lathed/machined to make lenses?
Sorry bro, working in medical research so a bit bonkers about Perspex and engineering :)
Peter
I've not tried much...only had vray since tuesday...it rocks...
the king was done with pure glass I think...it took a lot of experimenting to get it to the point where I was happy...and it was mainly render times...
3d Dude - like the image...is it using a bump map??? |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:13pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Really nice models and especially renders brotherx
Could Lucite (our Perspex) be TrueSpace-lathed/machined to make lenses?
Or for a moulded-hood cockpit glass for a Spitfire :)
http://www.lucitesolutions.com/casestudy.cfm?action=casestudy_view&id=221
Sorry bro, working in medical research so a bit bonkers about Perspex and engineering :)
Peter
Very cool info!
The next time I get into a realworld project requiring a thorough research partner I'll definitely know who to contact! I doubt I could afford you though!:o
Oh by the way, I found a picture on the web I figured only you would be likely to appreciate here, so here it is and enjoy! ;)
http://imagetray.com/albums/userpics/10178/latin.gif
Thanks for the info!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:16pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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I've not tried much...only had vray since tuesday...it rocks...
the king was done with pure glass I think...it took a lot of experimenting to get it to the point where I was happy...and it was mainly render times...
3d Dude - like the image...is it using a bump map???
Yep, used a bumpmap ramped up and scaled in Vue along with Vue's procedural color shader, works truly great in Vray for a GI Image! I've been playing a lot with these GI Environment Images and it makes ALL the difference in my renders now! Enjoy!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:24pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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So what's your next Vray project Brotherx? (and everybody else too!)
I think I want to play with rendering crystals myself, but I'll bet the caustics and transparency nuances are gonna cost me bigtime on rendering time! :D
Gemstone models I think.... now where did I put those....
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by brotherx // Jun 21, 2007, 11:39pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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I found that the caustics didn't make too much difference to the render time..maybe a minute...but then there wasn't too much to the scene...
Next project...not sure.
I would love to try doing a hall of mirrors or something but I really bet that would hurt render-wise. |
Post by weaveribm // Jun 21, 2007, 11:40pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Let me see
If.. you.....can..read..this..you...know...how.....to use Google :)
I was thinking about Sherlock Holmes and his magnifying glass dude, there's already a Gothic scene in here
<sips port thoughtfully>
I'm getting Victorian London and the smell of ozone in fog. No wait it's cordite. The game's afoot :)
Hmm that scene could have the sign on the entrance wall. They were stick figures I think. Ah google to the rescue 'The Dancing Men'. Not sure how the magnifying glass would fit in but Sherlock could have drawings of the stick-figure code on his desk like frames from an animation along with those other rather weird Victorian bibelots. The figures could line up after the dance and spell out the AM HERE ABE SLANEY secret message <cue owl hoot> :)
I'm in electronics rather than research or even medicine dude btw. I'm an incidental character only :)
Peter |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 21, 2007, 11:54pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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I found that the caustics didn't make too much difference to the render time..maybe a minute...but then there wasn't too much to the scene...
Next project...not sure.
I would love to try doing a hall of mirrors or something but I really bet that would hurt render-wise.
Wow... a hall of mirrors would be a serious challenge! I made an elaborate model a week or two ago for a shared space / truePlay-type maze if you want to play with it, wouldn't be possible yet with reflected surfaces in shared space but might be usable that way in FPN within the Workplace side of TS7.51. If you like just let me know.
I'm kind of wondering what a seacave could look like in Vray... with an opening to the sunlight ahead of the camera somewhere and a few gemstones/crystals glittering about here and there... sunlight shafts and volumetric effects... hmmm....
It'll be nice if a few folks drop in here with new renders and show us how to do the effects in Vray, especially volumetrics!
I'm lovin' this thread you started here - excellent input from everybody!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 22, 2007, 12:00am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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I'm in electronics rather than research or even medicine dude btw. I'm an incidental character only :)Peter
"Incidental?" Nah... you're a natural at research... very focused intellect!;) You almost solved the entire message in Latin, by the way, well done! It reads "If you can read this you're over-educated!" Hahahahaha! :D Loved the Sherlock thing! I'd better stay on topic here though!;)
Thanks for the mental vacation!;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 22, 2007, 12:17am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Does anybody here have advice on good techniques for developing unique metallic effects with Vray shaders?
I have over 2000 metallic textures I've been gathering over the years and with Vray it looks like I may be able to effectively put them to use now but I am a real newbie with the Vray techniques!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by kena // Jun 22, 2007, 4:42am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Check out my post to brotherx in the comments for the chess challenge... I have a link to my thread where I was learning V-ray. It contains some very good stuff to help you get started. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 22, 2007, 7:34am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Check out my post to brotherx in the comments for the chess challenge... I have a link to my thread where I was learning V-ray. It contains some very good stuff to help you get started.
Wow!!! Thank you Kena! :banana: (Here's that link by the way: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3097 )
I just read that entire thread for the first time and it is EXTREMELY helpful for understanding the settings within Vray! Sure, like everybody else I read the manual too, but somehow the fluidity of interactive discussion tends to cover things in a much more comprehensive manner regarding practical applications of various settings. I guess there's no manual for anything that can match that, for me at least.
Great thread, now we need to start beefing this one up with similarly interesting examples!
http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/diverse/u_thinking02y20.gif
PS: Jack, if you're reading this... thanks for all the help!;)
Thanks Kena,
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by kena // Jun 22, 2007, 11:19am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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It's nice to share what we have learned. ;) |
Post by brotherx // Jun 28, 2007, 3:00am
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Kena, that link was quite useful. I experimented with the lighting and it makes so much difference. the first thing I noticed was how much a difference you get just by removing the infinite lights. I ended up with a spotlight and an omni-light.
glassking.png is with infinite lights and 2 spotlights, the other is without the infinite lights and I'm so much happier with that image. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jun 28, 2007, 1:02pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Looks great Brotherx.
Yeah, that link from Kena with all Jack's great input there on Vray will be a settings reference for me for quite some time to come!
Y'know, I've been randomly hacking shaders of all kinds in Workplace to see what works with Vray aside from the standard included Vray shaders, and I've found that you can tweak several DX9 Shaders to look interesting in Vray too. Some DX9 Shaders even look almost identical in Vray as they do in Workplace realtime. I think as I get more accustomed to tweaking them I'll post a whole series of DX9 setting variants which work as both Workplace and Vray rendering options. That way we can work with realtime textures that don't surprise us too much when we render them!;)
If you all run across some that work that way in your own experiments, be sure to set them aside so we can share them all eventually together.:)
- 3dvisuals dude |
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