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The next patch?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
The next patch? // Roundtable
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 2:30am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Is there a time frame for the next patch planned? I stumble across too much issues that hinders me to even use TS 7.5 in one area. I cannot model with it, i cannot texture with it, i cannot rig with it. Maybe i could animate, but i haven't reached that area yet. Rigging fails ... |
Post by Burnart // Jun 27, 2007, 1:09pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I think there are still problems that need to be addressed but I am a little curious about one thing Tiles. You say you can't model in the new version! :confused: - unless you only ever use booleans or nurbs this surprises me greatly as it seems to me the polygon modelling tools are far superior than 6.6. and presumably earlier versions of tS. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 27, 2007, 2:57pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Nope, not really. It just looks better.....but I have only some problems...they are more like hindrances than road blocks. |
Post by Burnart // Jun 27, 2007, 3:59pm
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Burnart
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Always room for improvement - ie. easy offset of widget function would be nice or extrude points, lines along normals etc - but 6.6 doesn't have these anyway.
All I know is that I once prefered to polymodel in Wings3d but now I'm using tS7.5. Have to admit I haven't tried anything really complex yet but I find the whole setup and variety of tools let me work in a fairly similar way to Wings3d - something that never seemed possible in 6.6. (Having said that I have heard ts5 users claim the poly tools in that were better than 6.6!) |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 27, 2007, 5:00pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Definately room for improvement!!!! I didn't mean they did not need improvement...edge tools alone need a serious life put into them(there is nothing more than select and standard transforms)...tS5.x tools were basically the same as 6.6 when it comes to poly modeling. |
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 9:22pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Really this hard to understand that the current TS 7.5 is useless for me at the moment? Don't forget, we talk about the Workspace here. And when i need to switch to modeler to work i prefer to close TS 7.5 and open up TS 6.6. It is faster, has a bit more space, and less bugs than modeler.
Now a few examples.
Let's model a low poly house. For modeling the house windows i add a few divide loops (non existant in Workspace, just add loop, and it adds somewhere, and doesn't divide). Then i grab one of the now existant faces and sweep them by a defined amount (non existant in TS 7.5, it sweeps in a wild way), bevel it by a defined amount and 90 degrees ( non existant in TS 7.5, no way to tell the amount, no way to tell the angle), and sweep it finally back a bit ( non ... ).
I do it for all my house windows and other stuff that needs a bit more geometry. Then i delete the not necessary construction loops (what a drama in WS. remember the thread about edgeloops. Deleting edgeloops means to reshape the mesh in WS, because the crossing edges gets deleted too), and reconnect it to achieve the lowest poly count.
Up to this point i would also have battled with Workspace behaviours when it comes to navigation. Button navigation does this, Widgets does that, Front view navigates in another way than perspecitivic, no real straight line in the navigation. And i would also have to do much more clicks for the same tasks because of focus issues. Battling with resetup every new opened window. Plus the bridge slows down everything. Even when the WS wouldn't lack of needed tools i would have been much slower than in TS 6.6. And this example was just a simple low poly house. I haven't even bothered to start human modeling with this currently unfinished toolset.
Conclusion: Workspace is worthless for modeling for me.
Now let's try to texture. I use Roadkill for unwrapping at the moment. And UV Mapping Editor to clean up the unwrap then. Roadkill makes lots of unnecessary gaps. I can increase the texture resolution by giving all the windows the same UV space by remapping for example ( impossible in WS. You cannot set the size of the UV space by values yet), and move the stuff closer together. When cleaned up, i scale everything bigger (impossible in WS because it doesn't keep the ratio as it did in old UV Mapping Editor by dragging the corner. And so i would disort the texture now) so that it fits to the whole space.
Besides of the told points, there is this nice bug that kills UV space by switching between WS and Modeler.
Conclusion: Workspace is worthless for mapping for me.
Rigging. My first impressions with TS 7.5 was some quirks that hindered me to even finish the rig. That was before the patch. Yesterday i touched it again, now in TS 7.51. The first thing i did was a screenshot to record a bug ...
That's by the way the whole story when touching TS 7.5: i always end in a screenshot instead getting things done. And even after weeks i haven't found a useful need for the Workspace yet to improve my workflow with it. I get things better and faster done in TS 6.6.
Another chapter is that long reported bugs still remains. Don't we know that from the past? Will TS8 and TS9 end like TS 6.6? "sorry guys, we developed ourselves into a corner. But we have started to reprogram it ... ". Heh! No wonder that you develop yourself into a corner again and again when you ignore the bugs :( |
Post by transient // Jun 27, 2007, 10:04pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I've been doing my speed modeling entries in 7.51 and don't really understand where you're coming from. The modeling tools seem fine to me, much more stable than 6.6. Modeler still has some nice features, but for subd work I haven't needed it so far.
I do my mapping in blender (which is what roadkill is based on) and haven't had any problems importing/exporting geometry, or moving from workspace to modeler. Maybe your doing something wrong?
I think you're bones issues weren't bugs either, but user issues. Definitely they weren't problems I could replicate.
I would like to sympathise with you, but it's like your using a different program.:confused: |
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 10:11pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Glad to hear that you are happy with TS 7.51. I am not. I don't get things done in Workspace. That easy ;) |
Post by transient // Jun 27, 2007, 10:15pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Well, not my problem I guess. |
Post by Misc // Jun 27, 2007, 10:18pm
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Misc
Total Posts: 59
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.... issues weren't bugs either, but user issues.
I read this very often here ... ;) |
Post by brotherx // Jun 27, 2007, 10:21pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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Really this hard to understand that the current TS 7.5 is useless for me at the moment? Don't forget, we talk about the Workspace here. And when i need to switch to modeler to work i prefer to close TS 7.5 and open up TS 6.6. It is faster, has a bit more space, and less bugs than modeler.
Workspace isn't the best but it is visually fantastic. To say it is useless is a wild accusation. Perhaps you say it is useless because it doesn't do what you want in a way you want to work.
Then i grab one of the now existant faces and sweep them by a defined amount (non existant in TS 7.5, it sweeps in a wild way)
You could just sweep and adjust the sweep.
I do it for all my house windows and other stuff that needs a bit more geometry. Then i delete the not necessary construction loops (what a drama in WS. remember the thread about edgeloops. Deleting edgeloops means to reshape the mesh in WS, because the crossing edges gets deleted too), and reconnect it to achieve the lowest poly count.
Why delete them? is there a reason? does it harm the model in any way at all?
I give up here. Obviously you've made your mind up - it's not 6.6. Of course it isn't, it's 7.51 now and while 7.5 did suck a lot - it was actually unusable because of the crashing every 30 minutes, 7.51 resolved a lot of issues and added a few little features. It's been 6 weeks since the release. 7.6 is planned and there may well be further patches between now and then.
I thought workspace sucked when I first used it as it was sooo different and I didn't get it...the widget is great for moving stuff though resizing is not so good but there are ways around it.
As for modeller, it is sooo fast on my machine it puts 6.6 to shame. And it works on Vista which is a bonus (without crashing). And you can do everything you can do in 6.6 as well so when you get stuck you can use it.
that's my 2p/2c worth. |
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 10:35pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Workspace isn't the best but it is visually fantastic. To say it is useless is a wild accusation. Perhaps you say it is useless because it doesn't do what you want in a way you want to work.
I use TS 6.6 and i use TS 7.5. Better said, i try to use it in the same manner as i do with TS 6.6. Lack of tools ... . While i get things done in TS 6.6, i don't get it done in TS 7.5. Even with the almighty workarounds. When that doesn't qualify it as useless i don't know what will ;)
You could just sweep and adjust the sweep.
Not really. You will get trapped by this in some situations. And i was trapped by this before. Think of faces in angles ...
Why delete them? is there a reason? does it harm the model in any way at all?
Oh comeon. Sometimes you HAVE to work that way. You cannot leave unnecessary 50k tris at a low poly mesh. It is low poly for good reason :p
I give up here. Obviously you've made your mind up - it's not 6.6. Of course it isn't, it's 7.51 now and while 7.5 did suck a lot - it was actually unusable because of the crashing every 30 minutes, 7.51 resolved a lot of issues and added a few little features. It's been 6 weeks since the release. 7.6 is planned and there may well be further patches between now and then.
I thought workspace sucked when I first used it as it was sooo different and I didn't get it...the widget is great for moving stuff though resizing is not so good but there are ways around it.
As for modeller, it is sooo fast on my machine it puts 6.6 to shame. And it works on Vista which is a bonus (without crashing). And you can do everything you can do in 6.6 as well so when you get stuck you can use it.
that's my 2p/2c worth.
I know that it is not 6.6. It is still worse. Well, personally, for me. That's why i complain here. But i am just a dumb user. What do i know ;)
What makes me wonder here: i complain about missing things in TS and get treated than if i would have attacked a holy cow. Strange ... |
Post by Misc // Jun 27, 2007, 10:44pm
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Misc
Total Posts: 59
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What makes me wonder here: i complain about missing things in TS and get treated than if i would have attacked a holy cow. Strange ...
Well maybe its becaus they are used to defeat Truespace in most other forums ;) |
Post by brotherx // Jun 27, 2007, 10:49pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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I know that it is not 6.6. It is still worse. Well, personally, for me. That's why i complain here. But i am just a dumb user. What do i know ;)
What makes me wonder here: i complain about missing things in TS and get treated than if i would have attacked a holy cow. Strange ...
You show me a complicated piece of software with no useability issues and I can find you 100 that does. It's new...don't expect it to be perfect - there's no such thing, except maybe a hello world program. I have been developing software for 25 years and know this is fact. Completely re-designing software to work in a completely different way doesn't happen overnight and it will take time. If you don't like 7.5, don't use it...it really is that simple.
I like it. Many others like it too and we want to talk about how good it is and show off our work, not listen to someone complain about how it doesn't work the way they want it to, hence the reaction. |
Post by transient // Jun 27, 2007, 11:01pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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What makes me wonder here: i complain about missing things in TS and get treated than if i would have attacked a holy cow. Strange ...
I definitely wasn't attacking you, just puzzled by the whole "TS is useless stuff" because I don't seem to be having the same issues. I use many 3d products, not just TS. |
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 11:08pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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You show me a complicated piece of software with no useability issues and I can find you 100 that does. It's new...don't expect it to be perfect - there's no such thing, except maybe a hello world program. I have been developing software for 25 years and know this is fact. Completely re-designing software to work in a completely different way doesn't happen overnight and it will take time. If you don't like 7.5, don't use it...it really is that simple.
Not that simple really. I have paid for the software. Its description tells me that it can do this and that. But it cannot.
Point is, there is not this much missing to make it work as it should. But this "not this much" doesn`t happen. And those are key features for my workflow.
I also don't complain that an needed update doesn't happen immediately. When you read my initial posting you may notice that i ask for the timeframe. It's just that i might have to look for a working software solution when it is longer then.
I too know what software development is. Not professionally, and so surely not at your level. But making hobby games since years.
I like it. Many others like it too and we want to talk about how good it is and show off our work, not listen to someone complain about how it doesn't work the way they want it to, hence the reaction.
So show it. Show a piece that is JUST made with TS Workspace. Try to model my above described house. Then let's talk again ;)
I like it too. That's why i am still around. That's why i post here. That's why i try to tell what's wrong in my opinion. I just get nothing done with it. And that makes me nuts.
My goal with posting here is not to bash TS7.5. But to give feedback that something dramatically is wrong in my opinion.
You as a software developer should know that user feedback and bug reports are essential for further development.
How should one know what to do better when all the feedback is a "OOH, this is so cute" ? And when in reality all the folks simply leave without saying anything further because the software simply doesn't work? German TS scene is nearly non existant now. Most of them left to other software now. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 27, 2007, 11:15pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Uhm Tiles. Right click-drag in the corner of the UVE widget and right click-drag in the center of the red rotate UVE widget both do uniform scaling... ;)
-Jack. |
Post by brotherx // Jun 27, 2007, 11:19pm
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brotherx
Total Posts: 538
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You as a software developer should know that user feedback and bug reports are essential for further development.
Absolutely, that's what the bugs forum is for. |
Post by transient // Jun 27, 2007, 11:23pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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All of my speed modeling entries so far were made in workspace. I am having fun in 7.5, hopefully you will too one day. |
Post by Tiles // Jun 27, 2007, 11:25pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I hope you don't count my answers as an attack. They aren't meant this way neither. It's really just all about the current issue :)
I never said the whole workspace is evil. There is just too much missing to make it really useful for me. That's the way it is at the moment.
Uhm Tiles. Right click-drag in the corner of the UVE widget and right click-drag in the center of the red rotate UVE widget both do uniform scaling...
Whoah, here they are? Thanks :D
So Uniform scaling was an user error. My fault. Still, there are still lots other issues.
What´s for me missing now is that you can set the size of the UV area by values. Let`s say 20x20 planar for this face, 20x20 planar for that face, so that they all have the same size in the UV map then.
And that is one of those small bits i mean with not this much missing to make them work. Because without this feature i simply cannot map accurate. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 28, 2007, 1:16am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Kinda missed some of this yesterday, but...the sweeping tools do kill me, they just do what they want, when it comes to distance and scale(I know how they work, but there are no settings for them). |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 28, 2007, 1:38am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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You're welcome, Tiles :)
I think a lot of the difficulty is because you use a numerical CAD style to modeling. Where Workspace is more friendly to a more visual intuitive organic approach. I'm sure this is a huge issue for the architectural visualization users. If I recall correctly, I think the snapping tools are intended to replace direct numeric input for tools. So in the spirit of moving forward and learning the new ways of doing things, the issue would be more a matter of how could the snapping tools be better worked into your workflow? :confused:
About the UV corruption issue, does that happen if you don't open the UV editor on model side at all? It looks to me to be because the bridge is trying to sync UV changes made on different sides of the bridge. I haven't tested it with the current version but I noticed in previous versions that to get proper UV syncing from Modeler, I had to turn the bridge off, then back on and tell it to sync from the side I made the changes on.
The model side UV tools are destructive and don't properly maintain edge ratios during scaling or rotation, so I only use the WS side UV tools which are much improved. I'm hoping for more features to be added though so I don't have to use a 3rd party app for more complicated mappings.
I agree with you that it'd be nice if the UV projection widgets allowed numeric input in the stack view and/or work with snapping. My vote is for reworking the projection tools entirely though, guess we'll have to wait and see what they decide to do.
-Jack. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 28, 2007, 1:47am
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Jack Edwards
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I'm with you on that one Nowherebrain. I'd like to see the ability to scale and rotate each face or contiguous grouping relative to each selected face or contigous grouping, instead of a pivot point arbitrarily picked by the tool.
Heck the ability to move the pivot point during an extrusion and to change the widget alignment from local to world coordinately while using the tool like can be done in Maya would be nice also.
Edit: oops. Change the local to world and back during edit does work. So just need my first point with face coordinates and ability to expose the tool pivot.
-Jack. |
Post by Tiles // Jun 28, 2007, 1:50am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Most of my trouble comes from using 6.6, and find just a ways more complicated or even no way to do things in workspace then ;)
Well, i stumbled across the destroyed uv mapping bug when i tried to clean up the mapping of a low poly human. Imported as OBJ into Modeler, switched to Workspace, worked with UV Mapper, switched back to Modeler, saved is at OBJ, opened in TS 6.6, and a few edges were gone. I know that i haven't touched the Modeler UV Mapping Editor initially. And of course i did not have opened both, the UV Mapping Editor from Modeler and the UV Editor from Workspace at once.
Then i started to do some experiments, which resulted in the uv mapping killer thread. Maybe a better idea to discuss further downtracking there. Fact is that the bridge seems to be in trouble with transferring UV space. May work, but may fail as it happened to me :) |
Post by mykyl1966 // Jun 28, 2007, 3:01am
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mykyl1966
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I swore I was not going to post for a while unless I had something positive to say but here we go again. :)
I am happy with Truespace however it needs lots of work still to become fully useful. Lots of very nice features that on their own are fantastic but as a whole they don't always work together well.
An example of a problem I found was I was modeling a building and found that when I rendered it there was light leakage from certain areas. I couldn't work out why. I moved it into modeler and still no reason why so I exported the obj file and opened it in another app I have and there they were. Huge gaps where one side of the model were not mirrored properly. Now thats not really an issue if you are sticking to rendering in TS which is what I wanted to do but vray can see them and allows light to escape even if workspace and modeler doesn't show these gaping holes.
As has been confirmed there is an issue with deleting edge loops. However the biggest issue to me is the fact that its a five step process just to delete a loop! That doesn't take into account the fact you then have untold amount of steps to rebuild the damage done. It could be a very simple select loop and delete. I point these issues out and then leave it to the devs to decide if they will 'fix' it.
Its these little niggles that make it a chore to model at times in Truespace.
A comment made earlier in this thread regarding pointing out problems then being berated is exactly the reason my mate who I convinced into buying Truespace 7.5 with Vray has shelved it for now. Not good when you realize he is a new TS user who has many contacts who also could have come on board.
My suggestion in the future is to watch how you reply to folks who do have issues with TS. It really doesn't matter if its user error or an actual bug. Friendly replies steering people through to the TS way of doing things is much better than smart replies that sting.
I have not had any 'smart' replies to my posts so far but I have read them to others. Perhaps its because I usually start by saying it may be user error. I learned that through watching the forums for a long time. ;)
SO once again. Truespace is an excellent piece of software that has many firsts for me. My first full character model was made in TS 6.6 My first uv mapping was also done in TS 6.6. TS was the first app that gave me the confidence to model in a more 'traditional' way. So TS has a special place in my heart but in the words of my school report card "Could do better". :p
For those who lack humour try and read the above with your tongue firmly in your cheek.
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by transient // Jun 28, 2007, 3:17am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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A comment made earlier in this thread regarding pointing out problems then being berated is exactly the reason my mate who I convinced into buying Truespace 7.5 with Vray has shelved it for now.
People don't usually get "berated" in these forums even when they present with an attitude. Which threads are you talking about? Many bugs and issues I've seen have been user errors (as you wisely announce your problems :)) and some people don't like being told this.
These are probably the most helpful 3d forums I've come across. I think you'd have to be pretty sensitive to think these are bad compared to most.
If you upload the mirror model file I can have a look. I've used it extensively in all my models so far and haven't had this problem, except when it was my mistake. |
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