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Problems w/ shaders in VRay
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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Problems w/ shaders in VRay // Roundtable
Post by DigitalSoapbox // Jul 14, 2007, 6:30am
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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While I'm learning to live with the fact that it looks like we'll never get the layered shaders I'd hoped we'd have in VRay, it seems that the shaders we DO have aren't really working as it seems they should.
I'm trying to render out a product shot for one of my clients - a very simple branded soda can - and, in theory, I SHOULD be able to achieve a match to the real-world can's label using the wrapped phong shader. Notice I said should, not that I'm able to, because while I can use images to control each shader attribute, VRay (1.0 AND 1.5) ignore the maps in a number of the channels. On top of that, if you overcrank the numbers in the new sidebar material editor (overcranking = putting the numbers higher than their official "max" values, which is a fairly standard feature in most higher-end render engines like Vray), these overcranked values render correctly in the material preview, but are completely ignored by VRay at render time.
Try applying an image map to the reflection, exponent, and diffuse attributes. Now, remove the image from the diffuse channel, or try overcranking the value. You can see these changes in the material preview, but VRay does not render them.
So, some questions:
1. Is this a bug in the material editor and materal preview?
2. If VRay is going to ignore the overcranked values, why can I overcrank them?
3. If I can overcrank values, and they preview correctly, why isn't VRay rendering them?
4. Are these known issues? Does Caligari have any plans to fix them? I know things are being done a bit piecemeal after the initial 7.5 release, and many problems were handled by Caligari with 7.51...so maybe this is something that can be taken care of reasonably soon in another minor point release?
And an unrelated, but equally important question:
WHY oh WHY can we not render w/ alpha channels when using VRay?
I should add that this exact same object was rendered using VRay in another 3D application, and the issues I'm running into with a mapped phone shader not working correctly, and overcranking not working correctly, was not present. So, I know I can handle this project in another 3D application, but I thought it would be a good project on which to become more familiar w/ tS7.51's animation tools because of the simplicity of the project's animation. So, while I could use 7.51's tools to animate the object, if the final visuals I'm trying to achieve aren't possible...why would I? I wish there were more people trying to apply tS to non-hobby uses on the beta team so more of these issues could be found earlier before end-users run into them. |
Post by parva // Jul 14, 2007, 7:06am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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I should add that this exact same object was rendered using VRay in another 3D application, and the issues I'm running into with a mapped phone shader not working correctly, and overcranking not working correctly, was not present. So, I know I can handle this project in another 3D application, ...
So why bother? If you can do the job in another program than do it :)
I know what you mean but I wouldn't care about it any longer and I don't want to put more frustrations into things truespace can't handle. Maybe in time truespace can but until now... try an alternative where you get the job done. Just my advice 8-)
I wish there were more people trying to apply tS to non-hobby uses on the beta team so more of these issues could be found earlier before end-users run into them.
there are some users who use truespace in there production pipeline. Me included... at least I would like to see it in my pipeline other as just an alternative for realtime showcase :D |
Post by prodigy // Jul 14, 2007, 7:33am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Digital Soap Box...
I understand what you sais about layers that is very important i know, caligari are working hard to make a better software in a shor time..
Im not a native speeker but i work for Arch viz and product viz for clients with 6.6, 7.11 and 7.51 not only for hobby..
In this case? i create the layer textures outside truespace.. in corel photopaint to be more exactly.. So is practicly the same and in some cases better.. because i can handle exactly what i need..
The same with the bumpmapping..
Now with mapped shader i think you can do practicly everything..
My suggestion, is why you share your specific problem? maybe we can give you some tips or workarrounds to solve your problem..
In fact i want to see a better layer textures than what you find in model side.. but we dont know when ...
Sorry my poor english but i the best i can offer.. My help ;)
Regards,
Augusto |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // Jul 14, 2007, 10:24am
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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Digital Soap Box...
I understand what you sais about layers that is very important i know, caligari are working hard to make a better software in a shor time..
They've been working on better software for years...it's what a software company does :).
Im not a native speeker but i work for Arch viz and product viz for clients with 6.6, 7.11 and 7.51 not only for hobby..
Great! If there's more people like you also on the beta, why wasn't the necessity of layered shaders pressed?
In this case? i create the layer textures outside truespace.. in corel photopaint to be more exactly.. So is practicly the same and in some cases better.. because i can handle exactly what i need..
The same with the bumpmapping..
In extremely complex scenes with a large number of materials this isn't always an option due to memory limitations - even when those memory limitations are 4GB - when you're rendering extremely high-resolution images. It takes much less texture memory to be able to tile textures for one part of a material, then using an additional material layer to composite either additional image with additional (but different) tiling, and another layer that doesn't tile at all, etc.
Now with mapped shader i think you can do practicly everything..
See my first post in this thread as to why this isn't true in practice :).
My suggestion, is why you share your specific problem? maybe we can give you some tips or workarrounds to solve your problem..
There are no workarounds that will be visually acceptable to this client.
Sorry my poor english but i the best i can offer.. My help ;)
One of my designers speaks polish as his first language; trust me, reading your stuff is no problem compared to some of the mangling of the english language I have to deal with on a daily basis :).
Thanks for your thoughts! |
Post by DigitalSoapbox // Jul 14, 2007, 10:31am
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DigitalSoapbox
Total Posts: 71
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So why bother? If you can do the job in another program than do it :)
I know what you mean but I wouldn't care about it any longer and I don't want to put more frustrations into things truespace can't handle. Maybe in time truespace can but until now... try an alternative where you get the job done. Just my advice 8-)
That's not really my point :). I've already done it in another application, which also uses VRay, and it's possible. Why not in trueSpace? I know Caligari has been concentrating on getting the new tS architecture up and running, but I mean, c'mon...at least let's get stuff in there that older versions supported before running off and concentrating so much on new tools. Hell, I still need to do UVmapping in the Model view, because it's such a pain in the butt in Workspace to do accurate mapping visually in the viewport - something tS has had for many, many versions.
there are some users who use truespace in there production pipeline. Me included... at least I would like to see it in my pipeline other as just an alternative for realtime showcase :D
I can use it, and I continue to use tS6.6, because tS7 is even less production-ready than previous versions. I know it's the typical growing pains of a new architecture, I guess I just wish Caligari had spent more time on tS7's toolset prior to release, even if that meant a later release, so that users wouldn't get half-working tools that allow them to see the potential of the new architecture, but doesn't allow them to actually USE it.
It's extremely frustrating, especially when you've used tS as long as I have and have seen this cycle repeated many times, with potentially useful tools falling out of favor so new tools can be started, only to suffer the same fate. Plastiform, Facial Animator, Post-process effect architecture UV Editor (new and old...I still use uv|cow for setting up uv maps, and it's strange when an old, unsupported plugin is still the most effective means of laying out uvs), etc. |
Post by prodigy // Jul 14, 2007, 3:58pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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They've been working on better software for years...it's what a software company does :).
*You know... time goes by... :D
Great! If there's more people like you also on the beta, why wasn't the necessity of layered shaders pressed?
*Already im helping on Beta testing from about 2 months, and i can tell you the development team are working on, I Can't tellyou more... :rolleyes:
In extremely complex scenes with a large number of materials this isn't always an option due to memory limitations - even when those memory limitations are 4GB - when you're rendering extremely high-resolution images. It takes much less texture memory to be able to tile textures for one part of a material, then using an additional material layer to composite either additional image with additional (but different) tiling, and another layer that doesn't tile at all, etc.
*I no use always Tiled textures.. and i never thing to use tiled texture for example to do a "branded soda can" Thats why i request you to add a example of your work.. dont know if you are Expert on truespace, maybe you are in other plataforms and maybe we can help you with your project.. if you don't wont is ok for me..
Just try to help you..
There are no workarounds that will be visually acceptable to this client.
I realy don't know what is what you try to do.. so i cant help you..
*I do several object presentations.. texturize a can i think can be very easy.. with high quality and without the texture layer though.. IMO with just a little of imagination and technic is totally posible..
One of my designers speaks polish as his first language; trust me, reading your stuff is no problem compared to some of the mangling of the english language I have to deal with on a daily basis :).
*Good.. i love to see my "Stuff" working better.. :)
Thanks for your thoughts!
*Your welcome... i always try to do my best..;) |
Post by transient // Jul 14, 2007, 6:35pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I think maybe this is a bug report or a rant and rave type post.
I personally can't see the big deal about layered textures even with the complex scenes argument. And if I was letting down a client by using TS I wouldn't use it in the first place. Vray is a much more mature plug-in in 3ds, perhaps that's the answer. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 14, 2007, 9:27pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Dunno if you saw my post in the other thread, but one of the changes with 1.51 was that VRay renders save out in TGA format with the alpha channel intact.
If its not working for you, then it may be something for the devs to look at. I tested it earlier and it appears to be working. Well... with the exception of GIMP not honoring the alpha mask... but that's GIMP's problem I guess, since it shows up just fine in Paint.Net...
-Jack. |
Post by stan // Jul 15, 2007, 5:07am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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the material does take a long time to apply, no idea why:confused:
you would think transparency would work with bump maps or normal maps but it doesn't..:confused:
layered material is a must have.;)
all in all vray is not ready for commercial use, it's barely ready for hobbiests:( |
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