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Should TrueSpace go 64 bit!?
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Should TrueSpace go 64 bit!? // Roundtable
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 16, 2007, 7:55pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I have a question for the community that I think will spark some controversy and debate.
Should TrueSpace go 64 bit?
Obviously the long term answer to the question is yes. But a couple things need to be considered:
1.) The userbase would have to upgrade to a 64 bit OS to run it.
2.) "Model side" is legacy 32bit (and probably in some places 16bit!) code and likely would have to be dropped entirely.
The advantages are pretty clear:
1.) HUGE memory space for rendering. No more out of memory crashes when using V-Ray with HDRI, Caustics, and Lightmaps.
2.) Larger textures in DX9 view.
3.) More polygons before out of memory crashes.
Currently 32bit means that you can only use 2 GB (effectively closer to 1.7 GB) of memory no matter how much is installed in your system. I'm finding that I reach that barrier suprisingly quickly and it is a HUGE problem for producing HDTV resolution work.
So really my question is how soon would you be willing to see TS go 64 bit? Even if that means there's a good possibility that 32bit is no longer supported?
The reason I ask it that way is because I think we could have a more feature rich and stable app if two separate code bases don't need to be maintained.
-Jack. |
Post by TylerZambori // Jul 17, 2007, 5:20am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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For me, pretty soon. My workstation is dead, and I have to
rebuild. Now I want quadcore and nvidia 8800 GTS! |
Post by Shike // Jul 17, 2007, 7:19am
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Shike
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Of course! 64bit is the future and being able to use all the memory in my rig would be nice :D |
Post by Improv // Jul 17, 2007, 10:39am
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Improv
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Of course! 64bit is the future and being able to use all the memory in my rig would be nice :D
Agreed. It's not a case of should, it's a case of when. A critical mass has to be reached where most people have 64 bit widows, 64 bit hardware,drivers, etc.. Until then there really isn't much poin in rushing into it right now |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 17, 2007, 12:14pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I have a question for the community that I think will spark some controversy and debate.
Should TrueSpace go 64 bit?
The reason I ask it that way is because I think we could have a more feature rich and stable app if two separate code bases don't need to be maintained.
-Jack.
Jack ! I understand you question very well and I for myself am
not against 64 bit at all !:rolleyes:
We had this discussion I remember on the old forum just before
Ts 7 was released ... and I very well remember the conclusion
from Caligari side ..... they were focused on multi core rather then
64 bit (that was at that time ).
I think there is a lot to be improved in the 32 bit software that enhances
the speed ! I have other 3d software that runs much faster
and renders faster then TS does now and hosts much more polys. Some software is just in beta and is a much smaller app. some software is well
established.Some host whole landscapes with realy big tex maps
and on top of that I can brush on hundreds of plants......!
I dont feel that the whole TS software is slow but there are lots
of funnels and lots of edges that want to be smoothed out .
Thats just my feeling about it .
TS is not bad ... its just not realy finished yet ... with all new tools etc.
But you are right ... there is a limit ... and around 2 GB is not very much. |
Post by weaveribm // Jul 17, 2007, 10:49pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Yes please Roman and Caligari a 64bit TS build would be very good we are preparing for Vista 64bit, your TrueSpace 7.51 application deserves to have lots of legroom
I vote yes did I mention that :)
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 17, 2007, 11:47pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Wow, I'm really surprised that no one seems put off with having to upgrade to a 64 bit OS?
-Jack. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 18, 2007, 2:14am
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W!ZARD
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Wow, I'm really surprised that no one seems put off with having to upgrade to a 64 bit OS?
-Jack.
I'm not put off because I would not be able to take advantage of any 64bit hardware or software until I've at least finished paying for what I've got now! My machine is dual core and is only just 6 months old - I can't foresee replacing it any time soon, I'm still an incredibly long way from having exhausted the artistic potential of my current crop of 32 bit apps.
Sure it might be nice to drive to the theatre in the latest BMW but my trusty Honda Civic will get me there just as well! |
Post by Steinie // Jul 18, 2007, 2:33am
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I don't see it happening soon. Sell a couple Lamborghini's or hundreds of Volkswagons? Demand will dictate their direction I believe.
(Guess which company made the tractor?..... Lamborghini!):D |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 18, 2007, 2:56am
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RAYMAN
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I don't see it happening soon. Sell a couple Lamborghini's or hundreds of Volkswagons? Demand will dictate their direction I believe.
(Guess which company made the tractor?..... Lamborghini!):D
Guess who sold enough wine to make you think a tractor looks like a
sportscar? Lamborghini ! hehehehe
:D |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 18, 2007, 3:38am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Ok, I'm not sure it's really clear where everyone stands so I narrowed the question a bit and added a poll. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by TylerZambori // Jul 18, 2007, 3:53am
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TylerZambori
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Guess who sold enough wine to make you think a tractor looks like a
sportscar? Lamborghini ! hehehehe
:D
Lamborghini? Naw.....even quad cores are coming down in price real quick. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 18, 2007, 3:54am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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BTW Steinie, that's a rather sporty looking Tractor. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jul 18, 2007, 4:19am
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3dfrog
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I have a dell laptop with an intel core 2 duo processor. It is 7 months old. I don't know anything about 64 bit. If truespace was 64 bit only is there any way to run it on a dell inspiron e1505? Maybe it is too soon to exclude so many users. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 18, 2007, 4:36am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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All the core 2 duo processors and current AMD processors are 64 bit, so other than possible driver issues, upgrading to 64bit basically will mean buying Windows XP x64 or Windows Vista x64 -- and likely a clean OS install.
Don't know that I'd characterize an 8.0 release as soon, lol. They sure have a lot of tools to move to Workspace side. ;)
The other thing to consider would be that some of the competitor products are already coming out with or already have 64 bit versions of their software. XSI for example already has a 64 bit version available -- it's rather expensive -- but it is available. A concern I have is that if TS chooses to NOT go 64 bit with 8.0 then in my opinion they would be "behind the times" and relegated to catering to mainly hobbiests. In particular HDTV resolution quality textures cannot be handled on a 32bit app, which would rule out using tS in professional video production studios.
-Jack. |
Post by brotherx // Jul 18, 2007, 4:42am
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brotherx
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While a lot of people have the 64-bit processors, people (and machines) are still being supplied with 32-bit os's. I know with vista you can request the media for a small charge and then re-install as 64-bit but the likes of dell are still supplying a pc with 32-bit pre-installed.
as for me, I am not planning to upgrade my PC just yet...I have vista and my processor isn't capable of 64-bit so haven't really looked too much into getting the 64-bit version. I'd see myself getting a quad-core at some point but at 600 euro for the processor and a decent motherboard I'd say not yet.... |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 18, 2007, 5:19am
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RAYMAN
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Ok, I'm not sure it's really clear where everyone stands so I narrowed the question a bit and added a poll. ;)
-Jack.
This would be a question related to TS 8 or TS 9 !
When would that be ...... by the end of 2008 or even later ? !
Would 64 bit be mainstream by then ?
If yes ... Ts will probably be 64 bit ! |
Post by Asem // Jul 18, 2007, 5:59am
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Asem
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I remember one of the developers saying that this version of ts(ts7) actually has 64-bit code just that because of the of the bridge(being 32-bit) and the need for workspace to have the complete tool set that there is no 64-bit truespace yet so they release the whole ts7 as a 32-bit product. Imo I'm sure that at least truespace 8 will have a 64-bit version. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jul 18, 2007, 6:00am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
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wah... huh? Did someone say Lamborghini? :) |
Post by Improv // Jul 18, 2007, 6:42am
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Improv
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BTW Steinie, that's a rather sporty looking Tractor. ;)
-Jack.
Looks more like the ultimate offroad vehicle! :-) |
Post by trueSpaced // Jul 18, 2007, 3:54pm
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trueSpaced
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Couldn't there be a 32-bit TS 8 and a 64-bit TS 8? I have a 64-bit, but I know some people don't have 64-bits yet...
-TrueSpaced:banana: |
Post by frootee // Jul 18, 2007, 5:22pm
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frootee
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It would be cost prohibitive for Caligari to maintain 2 different sets of a codebase. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 18, 2007, 9:09pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Dunno, I think it would be more time prohibitive than cost prohibitive.
It may be that only small changes to the data structures and linking to different libraries is all that's required. :confused: If you think about it the only parts likely to take advantage of the 64 bit change are the triangle/vert lists, texture map structures, and the render engines...
Maybe it wouldn't be that difficult to setup the internals to compile as 32-bit or 64-bit based on defines in the header files and linking to the 32bit or 64-bit libraries. I remember that's what I had do back in the day of 16 vs. 32 bit.
It'd be interesting to hear from the devs, might be that there's no real difficulty in implementing both 64 bit and 32 bit versions simultaneously.
Looking at the poll results it's pretty clear that the community is against going exclusively 64 bit, so it may be a moot point, and putting Caligari once again in a position similar to what prompted the decision to develop the Bridge -- something that added hugely to the development time for 7.x.
-Jack. |
Post by roman // Jul 18, 2007, 9:49pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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When would that be ...... by the end of 2008 or even later ? !Would 64 bit be mainstream by then ? If yes ... Ts will probably be 64 bit !Before you guys get too excited about 64 bit CPU's consider that Intel already announced that it will ship first massively multicore terascale CPU as early as 2009. It should be at least 100x faster than current 64bit quad-cores, on right software of course:)
http://www.intel.com/research/platform/terascale/
And here is what Intel CTO Justin Ratner has to say about that:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/OverTheHorizon/
"Today, to produce a Pixar-quality image takes about 6 hours of computing on a current-generation, dual-processor rack-mount server. That's to render one frame out of the 144,000 frames required for a feature-length, animated movie. How cool would it be if you could bring that quality of image rendering to your desktop in real-time? Imagine playing the Cars video game with imagery that's comparable to what you see in the theater. To create that user experience, we have to go from 6 hours per frame to 124th of a second per frame, but at least it’s a very well-characterized computational improvement. It will take a combination of teraFLOPS of computing power and huge advances in the algorithms that render the image. Note that synthesis is the “S” in RMS, and this is but one example.
By the way, synthesis is not just about making pictures. It's making sounds, making things move and interact with one another in physically accurate ways. When an animated character speaks in these future desktop animations, their facial muscles will move exactly as they do when a real person speaks. It does beg the question whether we’ll actually need actors at some point, but that’s a topic for another blog." |
Post by Cayenne // Jul 18, 2007, 9:55pm
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Cayenne
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on a personal level , id be happy to see a 64-bit version alongside the 32 bit version.
It'd mean i could utilize/exploit my quad-core machine 8800gtx with 4gb 800 ram and vista x64 to its full potential in the quest to get round the 32bit memory addressing issues.
on a practical level the 32 bit version would still have to be maintained into the forseable future until mainstraim hardware and other applications were brought in to cater more easily for running x64 systems.
there couldnt be an either or approach at the minute it would have to be an as well as scenario. |
Post by Bobbins // Jul 18, 2007, 10:08pm
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I thought the question was not if we can render a frame in 6 hours or 1/24th of a second (24fps is film projection speed - an odd choice for digital rendering....) but if we can actually render the frame at all due to the memory limits imposed by 32 bit compared to 64 bit. |
Post by roman // Jul 18, 2007, 10:08pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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on a personal level , id be happy to see a 64-bit version alongside the 32 bit version.With friends like these, who needs enemies:) I must admit that 2GB memory limits has become a real problem for many users and needs to be adressed. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 18, 2007, 11:02pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL Roman :)
Hey you guys are sure up late or early for California time. :p
/agree with Bobbins completely.
And I think Paul is likely right that 32 bit support may well need to be maintained for a while.
I think the 2GB barrier has arrived in a big way with ts7.x and VRay -- and probably should be addressed in a manual appendix, maybe even with a chapter on getting good results while using less memory. I'm very happy to hear that there will be plans to address it. :)
The interesting question with doing separate versions is do you ship them together as an install option, or sell the versions separately maybe at different prices with the 64 bit version costing more?
Interesting article btw. But... Rattner doesn't cover how they will solve the issue with instruction scheduling though. We're already seeing that multi core isn't completely scalar -- that there is a performance drop per core on each successive core added. Scheduling instructions for 100 or 1000 cores would be a nightmare and the amount of onchip cache memory needed would likely be prohibitively expensive.
It's really cool that they are preparing for the jump to fiber optics though. That should create all new players in the motherboard industry.
-Jack. |
Post by roman // Jul 20, 2007, 8:45am
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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Interesting article btw. But... Rattner doesn't cover how they will solve the issue with instruction scheduling though. We're already seeing that multi core isn't completely scalar -- that there is a performance drop per core on each successive core added. Scheduling instructions for 100 or 1000 cores would be a nightmare and the amount of onchip cache memory needed would likely be prohibitively expensive.No it would not, not for trueSpace7 architecture, our kernel already uses message passing which is essentially asynchronous. That is the beauty of it, no central scheduling, no shared memory, just soup of objects sending messages to each other when they have something to say. Did I already say that trueSpace7 architecture was cool?:) |
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