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*69 Captain's Blog
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
*69 Captain's Blog // Roundtable
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 29, 2007, 9:27am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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A sterling idea! Sure gets my vote. MS Word has had this for years and I always thought it was such a good idea I didn't know why it wasn't a more common convention. Anyway, it gets my vote.
Gets my vote too. I´d want it to save a status file too. so if it crashes
you could look at before and after.... (bug report)..and send it in. |
Post by Ambrose // Jul 29, 2007, 11:15am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Thought I've seen this allready, could be set by minutes how often you wanted???
Maybe I dreamed or another program, thought it didn't do any good anyway since I save after 2 or 3 changes anyway...
Found what I thought it was but not quite, maybe a script saving once any min could take care of this???
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jul 29, 2007, 5:23pm
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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While new features are necessary just to get the interest and also to attract people to get an upgrade I do hope that new features/tools aren't the only consideration as, as far as I'm concerned, fixing the existing issues that need addressing is far more important. The focus issues of icons for example, not being able to tell what is active as several things are showing selected, certain things not being de-selected when they should be and so on. Inputting an image into the HDRI setting or similar, clicking a button to load one, clicking the square or right clicking the square for a load dialogue are all intuitive methods but what do we get? Control double click! What the heck is that all about? It all adds up to a workflow that is not as clean as it used to be. Whilst all the tools are tested and work before it ships, I sometimes wonder if using them in a working situation rather than an individual basis is ever tried as the workflow is nowhere near as clean as it used to be or, indeed, should be.
I know, I know, it's a new system, etc, etc, etc and it does look much nicer but it's not as clean to use as it should be. Sure, there's the Model side that does what it should, but we should be able to use the new system for simple tasks without keep having to go retro.
Whilst it's exciting times in the development of trueSpace, as a user it's also taken away some of the fun as it's no longer a joy to use like it used to be because of several annoyances that needn't be. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 30, 2007, 1:46am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Well said Kate - you've summed up my thoughts on this well.
The excellent thing about earlier incarnations of tS was it's 'hands on' direct manipulation interface. It simply felt more fun, more intuitive and more 'artistic' to use. One could go directly from point editing to material editing all on the same screen - now (when using the DX9 shaders anyway), one has to click down through a succession of orange squares in the LE before finding a dialogue that actually does anything.
Clearly, the LE is a LOT of fun to play with, particularly when working with animated behaviours and so on but using it as a Material Editor seems to me to be a distinct step away from the design ethic that has made trueSpace such a fun application to use.
In this sense, aspects of the new tS are not presenting as clean a workflow as I'm accustomed to. Click, Cntrl Click, double click, are all familiar conventions - Cntrl Double click? What the....? Then when we do Contrl double click (to change a bitmap, say), instead of a graphic browser (such as we are used to with the old tS image browser) we get a file list!
I always felt that tS (from tS 3.2 which is the first version I used) had the distinction of being designed for use by artists rather than programmers. Many of the newer aspects of tS 7.x seem to have forgotten that design ethic that made tS so appealing to use in the first place.
One of the things that defines trueSpace is not just the things it can do but the way that one does those things with trueSpace - intuitively, smoothly and ergonomically. As Kate so ably put it, it's taken away some of the fun.
Hopefully this is something the developers will consider as they refine our favourite 3d application for the future. |
Post by jayr // Jul 30, 2007, 1:55am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I'm with wizard on this one, i thought the LE was a way to access advanced processes and activate complex behaviors and make plugins, not a means to access things we used to have (or should have) in their own interfaces in the stack. I think the issues surounding light properties sums this up, having to wade through the LE just to light your scene just isn't right.
I know that all this make me look like i'm against the LE, i'm not really, it's a brilliant idea, something with lets us edit at the very heart of the program but like i said it should be for advanced things not stuff that used to take just a click or a slide to do! |
Post by Ambrose // Jul 30, 2007, 3:16am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Well we're only half there aren't we? well 7.51 that is...
Any way we're heading there, but keep talking because they're listening...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by rj0 // Jul 30, 2007, 7:05am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Well said Kate - you've summed up my thoughts on this well.
The excellent thing about earlier incarnations of tS was it's 'hands on' direct manipulation interface. It simply felt more fun, more intuitive and more 'artistic' to use. One could go directly from point editing to material editing all on the same screen - now (when using the DX9 shaders anyway), one has to click down through a succession of orange squares in the LE before finding a dialogue that actually does anything.
Clearly, the LE is a LOT of fun to play with, particularly when working with animated behaviours and so on but using it as a Material Editor seems to me to be a distinct step away from the design ethic that has made trueSpace such a fun application to use.
In this sense, aspects of the new tS are not presenting as clean a workflow as I'm accustomed to. Click, Cntrl Click, double click, are all familiar conventions - Cntrl Double click? What the....? Then when we do Contrl double click (to change a bitmap, say), instead of a graphic browser (such as we are used to with the old tS image browser) we get a file list!
I always felt that tS (from tS 3.2 which is the first version I used) had the distinction of being designed for use by artists rather than programmers. Many of the newer aspects of tS 7.x seem to have forgotten that design ethic that made tS so appealing to use in the first place.
One of the things that defines trueSpace is not just the things it can do but the way that one does those things with trueSpace - intuitively, smoothly and ergonomically. As Kate so ably put it, it's taken away some of the fun.
Hopefully this is something the developers will consider as they refine our favourite 3d application for the future.
Agreed.
rj |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 30, 2007, 11:12am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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It's impossible to boil things down to one concern, and we all have slightly different views....I remember asking for stability for tS 6....anyway we should all think about what is most important to the community as a whole. What will improve our work flow, sell trueSpace, and garner industry attention...then we all need to get together and unanimously, as one voice, tell the good captain where to steer the ship, but we need someone to lead this uprising....
here are my votes of unsuspecting souls...
a bunch of guys with weapons are just a mob, give them a leader and you have an army. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 31, 2007, 12:48pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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It's impossible to boil things down to one concern, and we all have slightly different views....I remember asking for stability for tS 6....anyway we should all think about what is most important to the community as a whole. What will improve our work flow, sell trueSpace, and garner industry attention...then we all need to get together and unanimously, as one voice, tell the good captain where to steer the ship, but we need someone to lead this uprising....
here are my votes of unsuspecting souls...
a bunch of guys with weapons are just a mob, give them a leader and you have an army.
If this is a letter to Roman I´d say it would be not a bad idea for Caligari to look at the videos you nowherebrain made with TS7.5 because
they very much show my concerns about what should be improved.
Nowherebrain ...the interface you made is alot more standard the
the default !
Second .... you run into some problems in the videos that some of us
have too ! If you want to explain them it is always very hard !
But if you see it in action and see that sometimes simple things
just dont move the way you want them to ... thats the things that
need to be ironed out !Its basicaly what I call GAMMA testing.
Running things in action...and running into some unforseeable things. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 2:16pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I completely agree. I've commented before that I think Nowherebrain's tutorials would be very illustrative in what things could be changed to improve these workflow odd behavioral issues that are very difficult to accurately explain to the developers.
-Jack. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 31, 2007, 3:05pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I completely agree. I've commented before that I think Nowherebrain's tutorials would be very illustrative in what things could be changed to improve these workflow odd behavioral issues that are very difficult to accurately explain to the developers.
-Jack.
I would add to that that I would think it would be helpfull to send
in the mesh and a short description of where it has gone wrong....
maybe even post it here. I know from the moi forum that the
developer asks the people for that expressedly. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 31, 2007, 4:06pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Maybe we should compose an online document and post it on one of the sites(mine, spacekdet, someone's) and list only the top 5 things we want worked on(bugs aside, they should always be looking for divisions by zero etc..). It would be difficult to single out those things. We could then post a poll(long one, like a month) with threads disabled. to vote yay or neigh on the proposal. After a month we submit it to Roman and see what happens. Sounds lofty, but plausible....
Comments, thoughts? |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 31, 2007, 5:42pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Maybe we should compose an online document and post it on one of the sites(mine, spacekdet, someone's) and list only the top 5 things we want worked on(bugs aside, they should always be looking for divisions by zero etc..). It would be difficult to single out those things. We could then post a poll(long one, like a month) with threads disabled. to vote yay or neigh on the proposal. After a month we submit it to Roman and see what happens. Sounds lofty, but plausible....
Comments, thoughts?
The big problem with that is that Caligari is not discussing things related
to new releases! they have been stressing that for a long time and
thats sort of .... policy.But what they say is listen and read.
The things that most of us want are pretty clear and I can name quite
a few examples.Render engine (LW+Vray integration) etc..We have posted
most of what we want here anyhow.I think its better if you just post what
you "want".Truespace 8 will be a big update and you know very much
as I do that many tools need to be moved to workspace side..... and
all of us are free to suggest any improvement.It is great the way you do
it and make tool suggestions while you are modeling things.
I would send the videos to Caligari to look at if it contains any big
news.Some of us work with other tools then Ts too.
We know what is more and what is less handy to use.
A poll with just 5 fields for improvement is not enough for a big
release.We should keep this thread for a long time! |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 31, 2007, 6:02pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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OK then. I'm drawing a blank on what to say...must be bed time...
in tS 7.x/8.0 I want unlimited energy, and no bed times. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 31, 2007, 6:06pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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We have to keep in mind that we don't want to post feature requests/improvements in such a way as to cause negative publicity. It's really important that the trueSpace community continue to grow especially now as Caligari transitions to the new architecture.
I know thay are listening very attentively to what we improvements we are looking for. The devs are very responsive and even post in the forums here -- SiW, Marekk, Tomas, etc.. I was very surprised when I saw how many of my requests made it into the 7.51 service update.
Using vids and screen grabs to illustrate I think also really helps. Polls might be useful to gauge sentiment about specific solutions, but I think creating a concise well named feature request thread with a link to the discussion will yield the best results.
-Jack. |
Post by xmanflash // Jul 31, 2007, 11:44pm
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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We have to keep in mind that we don't want to post feature requests/improvements in such a way as to cause negative publicity. It's really important that the trueSpace community continue to grow especially now as Caligari transitions to the new architecture.
I know that are listening very attentively to what we improvements we are looking for. The devs are very responsive and even post in the forums here -- SiW, Marekk, Tomas, etc.. I was very surprised when I saw how many of my requests made it into the 7.51 service update.
Using vids and screen grabs to illustrate I think also really helps. Polls might be useful to gauge sentiment about specific solutions, but I think creating a concise well named feature request thread with a link to the discussion will yield the best results.
-Jack.
I built a website that allows users to add wishes to a product.. it works and is ready.. I think I even added truespace to it in anticipation of a response from Roman saying he thought it would be worthwhile, but I didnt get a response.. Anhow - its there if you want! - just register and go for it..
www.wishlistcentral.com |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 1:02am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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We have to keep in mind that we don't want to post feature requests/improvements in such a way as to cause negative publicity. It's really important that the trueSpace community continue to grow especially now as Caligari transitions to the new architecture.
I know that are listening very attentively to what we improvements we are looking for. The devs are very responsive and even post in the forums here -- SiW, Marekk, Tomas, etc.. I was very surprised when I saw how many of my requests made it into the 7.51 service update.
Using vids and screen grabs to illustrate I think also really helps. Polls might be useful to gauge sentiment about specific solutions, but I think creating a concise well named feature request thread with a link to the discussion will yield the best results.
-Jack.
Yes Jack !
You are pretty much right with what you said !
I just think the normal feature request thread is to "thin ".
We should keep a letter to the captain open like this one. |
Post by stan // Aug 1, 2007, 5:50am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Jack ..it's good that they listen to you, because they don't listen to everyone..I can't say they listen to any of my requests ..;) |
Post by kena // Aug 1, 2007, 11:54am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I think they listen to all the requests, they just don't answer them all :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 1, 2007, 11:50pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I think they listen to all the requests, they just don't answer them all :D
What? You mean, just like Santa Clause? I've been requesting a big plasma screen tele but he hasn't answered yet! :D |
Post by Steinie // Aug 2, 2007, 5:39am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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In the Captain's Blog Roman said:
"truespace7.6 will introduce vertex animation, morphing tools for facial animation, blendable morph targets as well as new workspace modeling tools and faster speed in modeling."
What do others think he meant by "faster speed in modeling"? |
Post by splinters // Aug 2, 2007, 5:44am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Well seeing as modelling speed really depends on the skills of the individual I can only assume he means to give us more modelling tools or make the existing ones more intuitive.
I really don't know as I am not Beta anymore...still doing icons when asked but nothing so far really....:o |
Post by frootee // Aug 2, 2007, 5:52am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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well, here are the options I can think of:
1. Faster modelling in the Model View
2. Faster modelling in the Workspace View
3. Faster modelling in the Model view and Workspace view
I would think this means, faster response to user input, and faster data processing. In other words, code optimizations have been discovered and implemented, both in real time display and real time data manipulation.
I would rule out # 1 entirely because, the Model view is 6.6 and is there as a crutch only, while the Workspace side continues to be assembled; and no updates are being made to Ye Olde Code.
So I would say that Workspace modelling will be sped up.
Froo |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 2, 2007, 6:39am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Well seeing as modelling speed really depends on the skills of the individual I can only assume he means to give us more modelling tools or make the existing ones more intuitive.
I really don't know as I am not Beta anymore...still doing icons when asked but nothing so far really....:o
It is possible to speed up workflow... and have "less" tools.
Moi3d is a good example of how that can work.Its more like using a pencil.
You draw two to three curves and hit go and you get the complexest shapes
done in no time.Truespace has realy started that "new way of doing things with the powerfull line draw tool and the snapping.If that way is carried
on to curves drawing(like using a pencil)in all the other tools
including nurbs its on the right track.You can also enhence the workflow
if you have well working boolean tools that work on curves and nurbs too.
You can get pretty awsome shapes when you start with booleand curves(for nurbs).Plus you dont realy need a curve editor !
Apart from that I´d like workflow streamlined in other fields.
An application does not need two different widgets in model and workspace
etc.Two material editors etc.When you want to load obj.or 3ds you have
a seperate TS 6 dropdown menu....... etc. Why can´t that be included
into the standard open dialog .Those are just examples.You can get
away with lots of less buttons.....and get things more intuitive.
So my real wish for the future is TS should not have to have everything
twice.
by the way splinters I like your icons they are pretty logical. |
Post by splinters // Aug 2, 2007, 7:57am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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by the way splinters I like your icons they are pretty logical.
Thank you, I designed them to be as self explanatory as possible...but then they were shrunk to 26 pixels square and I had to revisit a lot of them again to get clarity. I seem to have it down to a fine art now though and relatively few are rejected or returned for improvememts.
Still, not much happening on icons for the moment...:o |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 2, 2007, 8:12am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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...but then they were shrunk to 26 pixels square
I would not want to large Icons because I want them "all" in front of me...
so no pull down menues for.....me (waste 0f model time).When i´m in model I want all model tools..
when í´min texture I want all tex .......etc..They are not to small they are
just right for me(one can change that in link editor anyway ... I know!) |
Post by splinters // Aug 2, 2007, 8:51am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Ah, my bad here. I was not complaining about the size of icons used by Caligari but the fact that I render them out at 300x300 and they look great but when shrunk down to 26x26 I had to re-evaluate just how good they looked.
I think they are the perfect size now and I am happy with how the whole UI turned out (in terms of visual appearance, even if workflow could do with tweaking!). |
Post by nowherebrain // Aug 2, 2007, 2:07pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I'm guessing, D3D improvements(due to speed), other speed optimizations(mat ed. for example), Edge tools, and the missing 6.6 tools(boolean/NURBS etc..)
Anyones guess is as good as mine(maybe better:p ).
Edge tools(more anyway) alone could speed up my worflow by about 50%(talking out of my heinie...I have no idea, but faster anyhow).
LSCM mapping would be great as well. Some of the basic systems are in place for many other features for v. 8.0 as well, like projection painting (paint layers would be great as well). |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Aug 3, 2007, 1:42am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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What do others think he meant by "faster speed in modeling"?
(WorkSpace side) Addressing the icon/tool focus/selection issues that mean you currently have to make about 40-50% more mouse clicks than you used to just to select the same thing. Sensible selection processes of bitmaps rather than insane options like cntrl double click with your left eye closed and half an egg in your ear. And so on.
I live in hope but he probably means something else entirely. |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 3, 2007, 2:28am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Sensible selection processes of bitmaps rather than insane options like cntrl double click with your left eye closed and half an egg in your ear.
Well the logical way of inserting a picture would be rightclick on the field
and a pulldown with insert picture AND reset (in analogy to the libraries ..)
Thats how I would see it ... |
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