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update to the trueSpace render core
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update to the trueSpace render core // Roundtable
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 2:58am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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This is a question to the Caligari team.
When are we going to see either..
a) full integration of V-ray?
or
b) Lightworks with final Gather implemented?
I know this may be puting you on the spot, but most apps today feature GI out of the box.
tS users look at this...
http://www.lightworkdesign.com/news/pr.php?id=127 |
Post by splinters // Jul 22, 2007, 4:33am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Can't answer for Caligari but tS7.5 was built around Lightworks 7.5 and so the core features were implemented there. To use 7.6 would mean a new license with Lightworks and new code to implement the new features. With Vray in need of some tuning and model side being 'phased out' over time you have to ask if this is viable for them.
Personally, I like LW renderer and would not be able to use Vray solely. If workspace is the new model and only supporting Vray at the moment then just how does LW figure in the future of tS? |
Post by transient // Jul 22, 2007, 4:47am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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You can do GI with the virtualight renderer. I like Lightworks as well, so I hope caligari keep developing it. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 4:54am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I like LW, due to the deep integration it has. It is also a bit faster if you know how to use it. I also believe that LW will be around longer than Chaos Group. Not that they are dying, but LW has a very stable and long(relative to the 3D world) history. This topic probably should have been in the *69 to the Captains Blog. I started a new thread though as I felt it was not a direct response to anything recent in the Captains blog....anyway, I would really like to know what the Caligari team "thinks"(Non committive statements) about this subject. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 4:56am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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You can do GI with the virtualight renderer. I like Lightworks as well, so I hope caligari keep developing it.
Actually, VL will be gone when "model" gets removed(My assumption), so it's really not worth counting. Lightworks is not developed by Caligari, they integrate it into their modeling and animation pipeline. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 22, 2007, 7:46am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Actually, VL will be gone when "model" gets removed(My assumption), so it's really not worth counting. Lightworks is not developed by Caligari, they integrate it into their modeling and animation pipeline.
My assumption: Caligari is moving everything that is now model side
slowly to the workspace side .... one by one .... its a question
of priority. I dont know if VL will be gone.;) Its more a question
of priority. Caligari has been working together with Lightworks for a long
period of time and they have been very tight lipped about any news in that
field.The lightwork renderer has always been a special version built
around the most recent core.We had a thread on that topic on the old
forum.It ended with no news .... so I´d love to hear something now..
I realy like Lightworks renderer and would like to see some improvement
towards GI and caustics ( Lightwork had a realtime caustic solution on Siggraph some 2-3 years ago)
http://www.lightworkdesign.com/lw_image.php?img=Real-timeCausticsDemo600
.http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/8272.html?1027327302
http://www.lightworks-user.com/full_pr.php?prid=72
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/19533.html?1125706022 |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 8:31am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Yes, I remember that. I wasn't posting much back then...just too busy(ARMY). I don't really foresee VL coming over, they would have to rewrite too much. It made sense with the 6.6 side(AKA model). The Virtua Out plug in already existed and there was less work to be done to integrate it(not NO work, but less). I'm really hoping we get LW 7.6/7.7 one day. If they could get better integration of V-ray, I would be happy with that as well. I don't want a separate product though. I want full integration, but what I want, what everyone else wants, and what Caligari will do are three separate things entirely. This is the reason I brought this old subject up. I really want to know what they think about all of this. They do not need to commit, just give me food for thought. |
Post by prodigy // Jul 22, 2007, 9:32am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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IMO,
7607
This is not better at to a Vray render at all.. In fact you can see wierd grain is some parts and the bouncing lights are not realistic.. Maybe just are a bad example.. but i prefer Vray..
Btw is not fair compare TS LW with TS Vray because LW are Fully integrated to TS model side and Vray is doesn't have the half part of the final software.. I mean, Lightworks have Animated Textures, Vray not, tsLW use procedual texutres, tsVray not..blablabla..
But simply looking the Dof effect from Lightworks and the Dof effect from Vray you can see clearly how far is Vray from Lightworks..
Chaos Group Biggest Fan :jumpy: |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 9:54am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Fair enough, you are definately right about the integration. I don't know about that render though. I would have to actually use it to see how well it works, but I won't be able to do that until it is part of tS...that is if they do not adopt V-ray as their primary....this seems like the road they(we) are headed down though...
facts.
1) they are phasing out the old architecture.
2) V-ray is the only available renderer inside the new architecture.
3) We're getting news( a trickle, but still news) about V-ray updates.
4) We're getting no news about future Lightworks integration. |
Post by Matski007 // Jul 22, 2007, 11:04am
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Matski007
Total Posts: 539
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TS7 = New!
TS6.6 Model = Old!
V-Ray = New!
Lightworks = Old!
A point to this? not really lol.
My view is that V-Ray is far superior to Lightworks, Lightworks has its charms but its old, and even with new features in the latest build, V-Ray is capable of rendering far higher quality images.
However! V-Ray must be bought seperatly and I think it is unfair that there is a lack of render engines available for the new TS7 architecture, thus Lightworks should be available or at least something as Free-ware as not everyone can afford V-Ray (I can lol :p ). |
Post by Vizu // Jul 22, 2007, 11:28am
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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Matski !
Lightworks 6.x is old.
Don´t mess it with the new 7.x version.
And at last, don´t forget that VRay never will be like VRay for Max or the stand alone version.
To many features missing in VRay for TS |
Post by prodigy // Jul 22, 2007, 11:35am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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mmm
I almost sure someday Vray it becomes in the primary render engine from TS, but it must be implemented natively not as a plugin.. As we know Vray is the only RE supported on workspace. To much support for a simple plugin. :rolleyes:
What ever.. Vray is a incredible render software and i'm very exited to see both softwares (Vray and Truespace) running at full power in a near future.. |
Post by Matski007 // Jul 22, 2007, 11:47am
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Matski007
Total Posts: 539
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Matski !
Lightworks 6.x is old.
Don´t mess it with the new 7.x version.
And at last, don´t forget that VRay never will be like VRay for Max or the stand alone version.
To many features missing in VRay for TS
Lightworks 7.x still not so good compared with V-Ray lol. V-Ray for TS im sure will become as powerful as VRay for max, one day but it takes time. Even with these new features lightworks is pap against other renderers, it is merely a low cost alternative. |
Post by TylerZambori // Jul 22, 2007, 11:52am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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IMO,
7607
This is not better at to a Vray render at all.. In fact you can see wierd grain is some parts and the bouncing lights are not realistic.. Maybe just are a bad example.. but i prefer Vray..
Btw is not fair compare TS LW with TS Vray because LW are Fully integrated to TS model side and Vray is doesn't have the half part of the final software.. I mean, Lightworks have Animated Textures, Vray not, tsLW use procedual texutres, tsVray not..blablabla..
But simply looking the Dof effect from Lightworks and the Dof effect from Vray you can see clearly how far is Vray from Lightworks..
Chaos Group Biggest Fan :jumpy:
tsLW: Oh Lightworks, I thought he meant Lightwave. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 12:50pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I'm not debating which is better, we all have our opinions. I'm just curious as to where we are headed. What renderer do I need to plan my projects for, it does have a major impact. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 22, 2007, 1:17pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I'm not debating which is better, we all have our opinions. I'm just curious as to where we are headed. What renderer do I need to plan my projects for, it does have a major impact.
If you ask me..... its a problem of money.
Both lightwork for Ts and Vray for TS look like limited editions versions.
It could maybe be that the companies would charge higher fees or maybe its
to expensive to have the render engines fully adapted.
Lightworks is not incapable at all..... just does not have all the new
specs.But its high time there is some improvement.
I would miss lightwork very much ... even if Vray were standard.
:rolleyes: |
Post by transient // Jul 22, 2007, 2:32pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Actually, VL will be gone when "model" gets removed(My assumption), so it's really not worth counting.
You said that there was no out of the box GI in ts, which I was pointing out isn't correct. I think VL has some good features which neither V-ray or LW has, like chromatic dispersion.
Lightworks is not developed by Caligari, they integrate it into their modeling and animation pipeline.
I know this, in fact this topic was already discussed by me and wizard in my bishop render in the image gallery.
Personally, while I like V-ray, Lightworks still has an edge in speed and excellent multipass rendering. I hope both get upgraded in future. VL I don't really care as it has good integration with 6.6 and you can script additional functions into the V-light gui. It's also free. |
Post by Burnart // Jul 22, 2007, 4:49pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Lighworks has its limitations but it least it is on board at this stage. The big problem I see at the moment is that VRay is an additional expense. If LW gets dropped and VRay gets fully intergrated is the price of tS going to double? Perhaps the only on-board render will be realtime and VRay will remain as a render plugin ...... who knows? This is one of those topics I wish Caligari would come clean on. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 22, 2007, 6:20pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Transient, chromatic dispersion is definately usefull(or really neat at the very least), but tS 6.6 does not come with VL. The virtuaLight renderer is part of the 6.6 side of tS 7.....uhhh....yeah.... I guess I just proved your point about GI out of the box.....
Brunart, that is exactly my point...I want a word or two from Caligari on this. I don't care which way they go, but I want to know what ideas they have....or what they are "considering". I'm not asking for promises from Roman. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 23, 2007, 2:08am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Another thought to consider is that for each render engine Caligari licenses the price of TrueSpace goes up by a LOT. Dropping Lightworks should mean a significant price reduction for the base software.
I think it's unfortunately that for VRay users like myself to have to pay the extra amount for a render engine I'm never going to use. My thought is that a better material system using "universal" channels (Texture, Bump, Alpha, Transmission, Reflection, etc.) should be implemented and then all the pay licensed render engines should be made separate. Obviously there would also need to be ways to still set material and light features that would be unique to each engine, but that could be set up as options on the materials instead.
I feel Caligari should use a free render engine for the built-in engine. There's quite a few good ones out there:
Yafray -- http://www.yafray.org/
VirtuaLight -- http://www.3dvirtualight.com/
Gelato -- http://www.nvidia.com/page/gz_learn.html
Then have better support for the add on engies:
Mental Ray -- http://www.mentalimages.com/2_1_0_mentalray/index.html
VRay -- http://www.chaosgroup.com/
Lightworks -- http://www.lightwork.com/
Another consideration is that implementing the Gelato renderer would mean adding a good Renderman compliant RIB exporter. Which would open TS up to a large number of free and professional render engines some of which are already 64 bit and used for large scale commercial (cinema) projects.
-Jack. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 23, 2007, 4:34am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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As far as free render engines go...I would prefer, in no particular order.
Sunflow
kerkeithia(why can't I remember that name)
indigo
and they are open source, like yafray. They CAN be used in a commercial app. Regardless what people think. |
Post by kena // Jul 23, 2007, 5:15am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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So far, I have used V-ray - Lightworks and DX9 in my renders. Depending on what I want to do, I use the best one for it. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 23, 2007, 5:38am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Sunflow does look good.
http://sunflow.sourceforge.net/
Quality on par with V-Ray. It doesn't yet have support for mapped channels like we have in V-Ray now though.
The images in the kerkythea gallery don't impress me as much:
http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.php
Johny I think has provided us with a working Indigo export already, so that's already and option for TS 7.x users.
Anyone else have any renders they think would have something to offer TS?
-Jack. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 23, 2007, 1:02pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Sunflow does look good.
Johny I think has provided us with a working Indigo export already, so that's already and option for TS 7.x users.
Anyone else have any renders they think would have something to offer TS?
-Jack.
I would very much welcome any exporter that people are working
on..... But from Caligari I just expect the ones we have...
I just want them to be updated to the last standards.
We need more shaders for VRAY incl. layered... animated etc.
We would very much like GI and caustics and final gather for
lightworks ........
I know how long it took to get VRAY and I´m happy that we got it in the end.
Some of us have hundreds of shaders for lightworks incl Darktrees ...shaderlabs etc. I dont want to start from scratch
;) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 23, 2007, 1:12pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I'd rather have channels for VRay than more shaders. That and the ability to hook up DX9 procedurals as bitmap inputs for VRay channels. ;)
Edit: Of course, layered and animated materials would be definitely cool too.
-Jack. |
Post by Burnart // Jul 23, 2007, 1:36pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I have played with several of these. Script based renders are problematic for us with low scripting experience - ie. POV. Kerkythea does at least have an interface that feels like familiar territory. With further development it could become a much better tool but the driving force behind all these kinds of tools is surely the volume of their user base and the programmers that hop on board.
It would be interesting to see a tS group of technically minded users put their collective brains together to create a project exporter to one these. I know that there is an indigo exporter but seems kinda clunky (no offense to the creator). What I'm really suggesting is a collective of tS users get together and develop something as another render option rather than leaving it to an individual to create a tool that only goes part way there.
I guess the current state of development of the renderer itself is significant - eg Ingigo seems quite limited at this stage. Is this good or bad? Perhaps a big load of tS users jumping on board might be a catalyst for further development - who knows?
Which of the open source renderers is going to be the most useful to us? Gelato looks wonderful in some regards but the fact that it is locked to particular hardware seems a bit problematic to me.
Things to think about. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 23, 2007, 2:32pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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That's one of the problems in the first place, integration. I don't want an exporter. I want integration like LW had/has for any render engine we use. |
Post by Burnart // Jul 23, 2007, 4:09pm
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Burnart
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Fair enough nowherebrain - personally I'd be happy with something that worked. Export seems like a simpler solution and could be driven by users - integration sounds like it needs Caligari to do it and the idea of them developing integration for a free renderer might upset whoever they have onside at VRay.....
Wasn't there talk about releasing plugin specs? - perhaps that will allow for the building of a new integrated render pathway. (I guess that is the origin of Virtuaout for prior versions of tS - or was that essentially an exporter to begin with? Boundaries blur.) |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 23, 2007, 5:27pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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It had an exporter, VO(Virtua Out). I think it was part of the cool powers collection, can't remember. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 25, 2007, 9:45am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Sunflow does look good.
http://sunflow.sourceforge.net/
Quality on par with V-Ray. It doesn't yet have support for mapped channels like we have in V-Ray now though.
The images in the kerkythea gallery don't impress me as much:
http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.php
Johny I think has provided us with a working Indigo export already, so that's already and option for TS 7.x users.
Anyone else have any renders they think would have something to offer TS?
-Jack.
Just for a short update and some eyecandy.
There are some physical based render engines out there ... like Maxwell
and"newer" Fryrender. They are not so well suited for animation and
Maxwell is reported to be rather slow with Fryrender a tad faster.
But look at the galleries ... its photo quality ..... so thats where
the future goes to apart from realtime engines.
Not that I think that we need more then the Vray quality ... hehehehe:D |
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