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Skybox/skydome
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They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Skybox/skydome // Roundtable
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 25, 2007, 9:49am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I'm getting a little frustrated with compatability issues between one set of software and another - yeah we've all been there, right?
I want to make a skydome using images from MojoWorld - Mojo has a handy feature which allows it to put ot 6 sequencial square images to make QTVR .mov files - it's also save those images to other 2d formats like .tga or .jpg.
My problem - how to get 6 (or 5, I'm not too concerned about the bottom image) square images to map correctly onto a hemispherical dome? Sky boxes always seem to have irritating distortion and colour artifacts in the corners. Any suggestions as to how to get a nice distortion-free skydome image into trueSpace would be really appreciated!
Thanks in advance
W!ZARD |
Post by frootee // Jul 25, 2007, 10:19am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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I wonder if you could do this:
take your images and stitch them together into one image file
apply that to a cube (for the sky-cube, which will become a sky dome)
subdivide the sky cube until it becomes a sphere (may need to adjust uv coordinates if they are not updated automatically? Not sure since I have no experience with texture manipulation)
I would think that with a texture applied to the cube, then applying subdivision repetitively, would update the texture mapping as well.
OR:
create a single image from these 5 or 6, apply it to your sky dome, and set the uv projection to spherical.
HTH!
Froo |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 25, 2007, 10:57am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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http://www.clickheredesign.com.au/cubicconverter/
With htis program you are able to convert a qtvr to a spherical image. Using spherical wrapped to a sphere has less distortion in the corners than do cubic wrapped images. Cubic and Spheres each have plus's and minus's depending on what you are trying to do.
Does MojoWorld support moving clouds yet. I used it for a couple of years (still have it on the hd of one of my computers, I used it mostly to create enviroments for QTVR movies :) ) but the development seemed to stop so I moved ove to Vue Infinite last fall.
Still it's a cool program.
Rich |
Post by Burnart // Jul 25, 2007, 12:50pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Can't you take your 6 separate images individually map them onto the 6 sides of a cube then apply several layers of SDS? Can't say I've ever tried it though.... |
Post by Changa // Jul 25, 2007, 12:54pm
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Changa
Total Posts: 187
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I've never used MojoWorld, so sorry in advance. Is it possible to make and render a mirrored ball there? |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 25, 2007, 1:23pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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I'm getting a little frustrated with compatability issues between one set of software and another - yeah we've all been there, right?
I want to make a skydome using images from MojoWorld - Mojo has a handy feature which allows it to put ot 6 sequencial square images to make QTVR .mov files - it's also save those images to other 2d formats like .tga or .jpg.
My problem - how to get 6 (or 5, I'm not too concerned about the bottom image) square images to map correctly onto a hemispherical dome? Sky boxes always seem to have irritating distortion and colour artifacts in the corners. Any suggestions as to how to get a nice distortion-free skydome image into trueSpace would be really appreciated!
Thanks in advance
W!ZARD
This may help,
Urban Velkavrh's free "u/v Projection 1.0" ( uvworx.com (http://uvworx.com) ) standalone program for cubic scene image manipulation and TS usage... takes 6 images/photos as cubic input and then outputs a combined interpolated image map suitable for use as a texture within trueSpace on spherical or semispherical uv-mapped skydomes.
Note that NURBS skydomes look best but are not supported online yet by trueServe/truePlaces/truePlay, so you may want to use a geodome instead for online use. I have also discovered that translucency is adviseable on such domes, and of course you will want to turn off shadowcasting and shadow reception for the dome.
You probably don't need this yourself, but in case anyone else here needs their own free skydome I made one for download in the following thread:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=342
Textures for it are also zipped in this thread:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3454
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 25, 2007, 1:28pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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One other thing...
I've had great luck with using Vue's panoramic rendering setting to create textures for use in trueSpace on spherically or cylindrically uv-mapped domes.
I don't know if MW renders to panorama but if so that may be better.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 25, 2007, 4:37pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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There is just ONE more thing....:D
You're going to love this particular thing too since you make such awesome ship models and 2D scenes employing water... wanna make realtime moving water now in your new immersive 3D scenes?
SteveBe, in his "Torus Knot" thread here, was asked whether his new and cool realtime TS7.51 animated texture coordinates method could potentially be applied to vertex animation in realtime shared space to simulate moving water in such environments.... he simply responded with an absolutely elegant TS Rsscn file demonstrating that sure enough... it not only can be done he has done it, and the effect is absolutely stunning to see right inside your TS7.51 Workspace!
:banana:
Here's the thread, his related downloadable Rsscn file is in Post #13 there:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3676
Now we can have our own shared space scenes REALLY come to life thanks to SteveBe!:)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by Nez // Jul 25, 2007, 10:18pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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This may help,
Urban Velkavrh's free "u/v Projection 1.0" ( uvworx.com (http://uvworx.com) ) standalone program for cubic scene image manipulation and TS usage... takes 6 images/photos as cubic input and then outputs a combined interpolated image map suitable for use as a texture within trueSpace on spherical or semispherical uv-mapped skydomes.
I recently downloaded this too to try out with Terragen - seems very simple to use (you can use it conjunction with a script in Terragen to output the 6 images) - and it's free! |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 26, 2007, 9:59pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Wow! What a great response! Thanks to all those who offered some input - I'm sure that I'll get somewhere with one or other of these approaches.
@ Frootee and Burnart - thanks guys but the mapping to a cube then subdividing idea doesn't quite cut it - though it would probably work for cloudless skies. It was the first thing I tried but the problem lies with the UV mapping - images designed for cubes won't map to a sphere without some sort of stretching of the image.
@Changa - good thinking with the mirrored ball approach - I've already tried that and had successful results as far as the mapping goes but the reflections were too low in resolution to gice me a nice sharp cloudscape. I may revisit this approach though as it could be related to my use of a fairly wide angled camera in Mojo.
@RichLevy - thanks for the link - this could be just what I'm looking for. Re Mojo and moving clouds - yes MojoWorld does support animated clouds, water and surface textures, cam pos, time of day and so on but I understand this only applies to MojoWorld 3 Pro (which is what I have). MojoGraph is the name of the plugin that allows this animation and it's a node based Function Graph Editor not unlike trueSpace LE.
@3DVD - Cheers - your link to Urban Velkavrhs (cool name!) app sounds like just the thing :D - and at such a reasonable price too! Thanks for the other tips on using skydomes - I already have a bit of experience using them in tS - my problem was mapping Mojos cubic output to a hemisphere.
I have Vue 5 Esprit which does do great skies - the main motive for using MojoWorld is it can do really quite exccellent volumetric clouds using Dmetry Lavrovs Volumetric plug in. Dunno if MW does pano pics or not - I'll need to check that out.
Re SteveBe's moving water scene - rest assured that I grabbed that at the very first opportunity though I've not yet had chance to try it out - major thanks to SteveBe though.
@Nez - thanks for the info - I've made skyboxes with Terragen before but always ran into that problem of distortion at the corners which also applies to Mojo's cubic output.
I'll do some more exploration over the weekend and I'll let y'all know how I get on.
Thanks again folks. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 28, 2007, 6:29am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Urban Velkavrh's free "u/v Projection 1.0" ( uvworx.com ) standalone program for cubic scene image manipulation and TS usage... takes 6 images/photos as cubic input and then outputs a combined interpolated image map suitable for use as a texture within trueSpace on spherical or semispherical uv-mapped skydomes.
Has anyone actually used this app? I'm getting a 'jpeg error #36' (whatever that is) when I try to save the output. Other than that it works great! :D |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 6:57am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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@RichLevy - thanks for the link - this could be just what I'm looking for. Re Mojo and moving clouds - yes MojoWorld does support animated clouds, water and surface textures, cam pos, time of day and so on but I understand this only applies to MojoWorld 3 Pro (which is what I have). MojoGraph is the name of the plugin that allows this animation and it's a node based Function Graph Editor not unlike trueSpace LE.
I was using MojoWorld Pro 3 also... The program has been out for sometime now... I think at the time I was using it you were only able to get the water to move Dmetry's clouds were not available yet. I feel madely in Like with Vue Infinite when I saw the vegetation, the natural looking water and the ability to nmove the clouds the way they can in Vue... I do miss the way Mojo creates it's landscapes, exploring the different worlds you create was mad fun! The Node editor for Mojo makes the LS+E in TS look easy! :D
Good to see you making use of it, keep producing cool things with it, it might get me excited to try some more!
Rich |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 28, 2007, 7:14am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Yeah I can understand where your coming from - I really like Vue it can do some pretty cool stuff and the new version looks even better. Mojo is really good for those 'otherworldly' images IMO. Dmetrys clouds are really a big attraction for me as they can look quite convincing.
"The Node editor for Mojo makes the LS+E in TS look easy! " Yeah you got that right! I've been giving myself a crash course in tS LE stuff all night tonight. I am trying to get to grips with the DX9 shaders - I've made some progress but I miss the intuitiveness of the trusty old LW ME.
I'm having fun with both tS and MW at the moment. The beauty of it all for me right now is if I get too frustrated with one I can give myself a break and go and get frustrated with the other! |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 28, 2007, 12:06pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I was using MojoWorld Pro 3 also... The program has been out for sometime now... I think at the time I was using it you were only able to get the water to move Dmetry's clouds were not available yet. I feel madely in Like with Vue Infinite when I saw the vegetation, the natural looking water and the ability to nmove the clouds the way they can in Vue... I do miss the way Mojo creates it's landscapes, exploring the different worlds you create was mad fun! The Node editor for Mojo makes the LS+E in TS look easy! :D
Good to see you making use of it, keep producing cool things with it, it might get me excited to try some more!
Rich
Vue Inf 6 is a real good companion to Truespace!
In fact its my fifth render engine and most used of the all !
It sort of complements Truespace. It has everything that Truespace falls
short in ... terrains sculpting ... atmospheres etc.
I love Mojo world too ... but its not realy easy to modify things
in there... I have the SE version from the cover Cd of 3D World.
i´m already at my limits with that .
Some cool nice pictures you made with it Wiz! |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 28, 2007, 12:07pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Has anyone actually used this app? I'm getting a 'jpeg error #36' (whatever that is) when I try to save the output. Other than that it works great! :D
Well this isn't good news.
I have used it before but when I did I used fairly small jpegs as input, and if I recall correctly they also had to be identical dimensions pixelwise and square as well.
I just did a search on the web for "jpeg error #36" and discovered that it is primarily a bug in Borland Delphi's older versions of their jpeg libraries which was eventually fixed with updates from Borland. Of course the problem with that is the program we are talking about here is no longer supported by Urban (I'm pretty sure on that but you can always e-mail him), and would need to be recompiled with a newer Borland jpeg library to eliminate the issue entirely.
Here's a related note I also found during my search:
According to the JPEG documentation Error 36 occurs when "The hard drive is out of space". Since this is rarely the case and always occurs with very large files, I suspect that this error can occur when you have run out of resources (memory). This occurs primarily with Windows 9x/ME. If you are attempting to write this JPEG to a file, you need to be aware that it initially needs more space then when it is finished. You can try saving the JPEG to your hard disk first.
My guess is you're NOT using Win9x/ME, so based on that assumption there may be ways around the issue...
1) Make sure the images you are entering as input are actually saved to your hard drive and referenced from those files as opposed to being pasted from memory into the program as input.
2) Make sure all the images are precisely the same size and square in aspect.
3) And this one you won't like... try compressing each input image or reducing the scale of all until each image is under 2 meg.... try it again... under 1.75 meg... try it again... etcetera.
Bummer, I know, but maybe one of the above will help in your case. I know the program works with equally sized square and <1Meg images... beyond that you're into uncharted waters here I'm afraid!
If you do succeed with a workaround, please let us all know what it was... this is after all the only free program of it's kind so it would be good for all of us to understand it's limitations and potential workarounds for them.
Sorry for the issues, I hope this will still work for you and all of us!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by pcread // Jul 28, 2007, 1:18pm
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pcread
Total Posts: 21
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I use Terragen to output to 6 bmp's (gocubic ) and I have sucessfully used these in a cube with a camera at the dead centre. As long as you paint the insides of the cube with Reflectance:Constant, you won't get any discrepancies at the corners.
I did this for a friend: http://www.brandcad.nl/images/default.mov |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 1:45pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Vue Inf 6 is a real good companion to Truespace!
In fact its my fifth render engine and most used of the all !
It sort of complements Truespace. It has everything that Truespace falls
short in ... terrains sculpting ... atmospheres etc.
I love Mojo world too ... but its not realy easy to modify things
in there... I have the SE version from the cover Cd of 3D World.
i´m already at my limits with that .
Some cool nice pictures you made with it Wiz!
I agree 100%. I was using it almost nonstop for the first 6months I had it. Putting islands in the middle of an ocean, than setting up different types of waves against the shore... altering the wind strength and direction... setting clouds to be Volumetric, low or high, God Rays... Setting up fields with a wild area of wild flowers, weeds, grasses and trees, sett he wind in motion, record 20 seconds of video, than watch in amazement as everything on the screne moves!!! I started on Infinite 5, but the upgrade to 6 Infinite is even more spetacular!
Models from TS move into it flawlessly, than can be converted into VOB objcts than used in the ecosystem... And the Node editor in Vue actually makes sense!!! It is one of the better ones on the market IMHO...
Oh well, I need to get it onto my new Duel core Quad Cpu system, I am sure it will move much faster than the old AMD system it is on right now...
Rich |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 28, 2007, 2:25pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I agree 100%. I was using it almost nonstop for .....
Oh well, I need to get it onto my new Duel core Quad Cpu system, I am sure it will move much faster than the old AMD system it is on right now...
Rich
That must be a boost in speed !
Its a tad slow when rendering ... but that something I understand
is not just Vue ! Maxwell looks like its not very fast either !
Thats sort of something I think we have to live with I guess
when we have superior render quality.;)
Apart from all that ... you dont have to think about
creating skydomes ... skyboxes most of the time.
It sets up itself as an atmosphere.... you just need a few settings.
All renders in radiosity if you want to.
If you need good skydomes ... Vue is a very good startpoint for making
them ! |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 2:53pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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That must be a boost in speed !
Its a tad slow when rendering ... but that something I understand
is not just Vue ! Maxwell looks like its not very fast either !
Thats sort of something I think we have to live with I guess
when we have superior render quality.;)
Apart from all that ... you dont have to think about
creating skydomes ... skyboxes most of the time.
It sets up itself as an atmosphere.... you just need a few settings.
All renders in radiosity if you want to.
If you need good skydomes ... Vue is a very good startpoint for making
them !
I am not even sure if the versionsunder the one below Infinite allow you to save full sky panos, I know I can in Infinite. The expense of the package (basically the same price as TrueSpace) I think deters many from using it. Teragen seems to get most people in the 3D forums... free is always a stronger motivator than ca$h :)
I still think using the program I gave a link to is the best way. You render out a QTVR and than load it into that program than you have the ability to save a cubic set of images or and equallaterial (spherical) image.
PCReads image seems to be pretty good, though I wonder how well it will hold up if you started to move around in the scene...
Rich |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 29, 2007, 3:23am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the replies and comments folks.
Special thanks to 3DVD. Good idea googling the error tag - I did wonder if it was a memory issue. Sadly the prog works exactly as advertised right up to the final save operation when the error occurs. I've already tried all three of the suggestions you made 3dvd - reduce size, increase the compression of the JPGs. I'll try further reductions until I get a useable result but I've already reduced the input pix ti around 1 meg (though a few of them are still a little larger than that).
I've got a dual monitor setup and so I've been able to expand the 'Projection 01) window over both screens and take a screen grab which gives me a 1.03 MB 2549x949 jpg (after trimming out tool bars and so on). Sadly this does not give me the sharpness I'm after.
Stop press! As I was writing I had a thought - even when trying to save the 'Projection' output as a .bmp I was still getting the jpeg error. So I tried ignoring the save as file type dropbox and manually typed <file name>.bmp and that did the trick! Yay! I now have converted six 1200x1200 pix to one big 4800x2400 32.9 MB bmp.
I've painted this on a sphere in tS workspace and whilst still a little blurry it's still a useable result.
So the workaround is to save to .bmp and ensure you add the file suffix in full to the file name.
Of course now the big mystery is - why didn't I think of this earlier? D'oh!
Re Vue 6 - given my experiences with Vue 5 esprit I would buy Vue 6 right away if I was in a position to afford it. I don't know if I'd compare it with Terragen though - I'm a great fan of Terragen, it's the prog that got me interested in 3d in the first place but Vue 5 Esprit (and of course now the Vue 6 range) are far more versatile and easy to use. The recently released Terragen 2 Technology Preview is certainly capable of some astonishingly good results but doesn't look very user friendly. Of course it's all a matter of taste and personal preference really - I know some people don't like Vue for various reasons - heck some people don't like trueSpace though I can't see why myself! What's not to like?
Postscript - I've just done a few more experiments and Projection handled 1200x1200 input pics but gave up on 1600x1600. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 29, 2007, 1:53pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Excellent!
Kind of strange though that the Projection 100 program chokes on it's own dialog box default format extension but not when typed manually... that's a new one on me! Great find though and thank you very much for telling us all!
The images you are using are ***HUGE*** compared to what one would find common in shared spaces as sky textures though... this could present some serious lag online and perhaps even eat up much of your max scene filesize for a shared space scene. I love detail too though, especially the subtle nuances of atmospheres, so I know it's a hard call to make for sure.
EDIT: I was looking at that 49+ Meg and forgot the image was in "bmp" format... once saved in jpeg format you may be ok with that online... sorry.:o
I'm dying to see this now, you know.... and I'm very happy you found a solution!:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 30, 2007, 1:19am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Yeah it's a strange one alright! I thought it was odd that I was getting a jpg error when trying to save to bmp and then it occured to me to try typing in the appropriate file extention and voila! as they say! ;) . I'd emailed Urban (the program writer) who kindly got back to me to say that there wasn't much he could do about that error and I've subsequently gone back to him and explained the workaround/solution. Hopefully it will be of some use to him.
I was so pleased that I'd been able to save a hi-res image that I painted it straight on my tS skydome. Major kudos to those DX9 shaders - even when working with such a massive uncompressed texture file the workspace operates without a hitch in realtime - I can spin my viewpoint around inside my skydome with no noticeable lag in movement! Mark me down as HIGHLY impressed on that score. Obviously, as you've pointed out, I'll be able to shave a lot of weight off that file by converting it to a jpg in another app.
Having expressed how impressed I am with the DX9 shaders I also want to add that modifying them in the LE is a something of PITA. (Yes I can hear the horrified gasps now - has W!ZARD gone over to The Dark Side and begun using the LE?). I seem to be forever clicking on either orange squares to drill down into the LE or clicking orange triangles to drill back out.
To be fair I am still very much a noob with the LE but it is actually making more sense and revealing more of it's true power to me - and it IS very impressive. However one of the greatest attributes of trueSpace for me has always been it's more intuitive icon driven and direct manipulation approach to 3d. The LE seems to me to be a distinct step away from that design philosophy. Historically with tS one worked in the 3d views but now (assuming one wants to work with the DX9 realtime shaders) one has to do so much in the LE. In terms of 'effectivness per mouseclick' the LE sucks as a material editor (at least at first glance).
I'm accustomed to the great ease and intuitive approach of the LW ME (which I consider to be easily the single most user friendly material editor I've ever used). In contrast, the DX9 ME process involves constant drilling up and down the LE levels before one gets to a dialogue or control that actually does anything. I guess this will improve as I get more familiar with it but so far, for me anyway, it's just not as much fun setting up these DX9 materials as it is setting up LW materials.
As to whether anyone will actually get to see the 3d space I'm trying to build - well that's not yet decided. At the moment it's as much a learning exercise as an actually exercise in creating something shareable. Additionally I'm doing this without access to any of the official 'how-to' tutorials (apart from whats in the manual and available on these fori).
Much will depend on what I learn as I go and what sort of fidelity I'm able to acheive in the long run. If I need a lo-res sky texture to make this thing networthy .... well it's just have to stay net unworthy!
Just to help you get a sense of what I'm trying to do here's a rendertofile from my first realtime 3d space (called, with an appalling lack of imagination, Area 01). There's a l o n g way to go yet - I've still got to figure out how this is all lit seeing as I deleted all the existing lights in the scene plus I want to add more components to First Person Navigate around - lots more manual reading and LE dabbling to come! |
Post by Ambrose // Jul 30, 2007, 3:25am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Yes I can hear the horrified gasps now - has W!ZARD gone over to The Dark Side and begun using the LE?
Hehe that was a good laugh for sure.
Well it's nice anyway to see that more and more are taking the jump, even at small steps - learning to walk...
Keep up the good work W!ZARD and keep building those worlds you're so good at!
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 30, 2007, 6:59pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Ooooh... this is a SWEET scene to use!!!
Ditto on everything else you said above, I feel the same about it all.
Hopefully your interaction with Urban will lead to him considering an update to Projection 100 too, that would be great, perhaps there's more interest in such things now than there was when he first released it.
I just got through responding to another post of yours here, a new thread actually, in relation to Shared Space Design / Development, so I won't repeat all that stuff here, but suffice it to say here that I am excited and encouraged by your brave forays into this Dark Realm, and I too would like some related info, assistance, and encouragement from Caligari in this regard.
Welcome to "WorldBuilding 101" W!ZARD! May our pioneering be rewarded!:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
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