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Creature Creator, how much more?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Creature Creator, how much more? // Roundtable
Post by jydog // Jul 27, 2007, 11:22am
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jydog
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The ad for Creature Creator states you can use the models you create with it for limited # of game copies but can buy additional capacity.
How much is the extra charge? |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 27, 2007, 11:32am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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This is what the ad says in regard to this.
================================================== =========
Creature Creator for trueSpace has a unique license that lets you distribute the models you create in your indie game, or in an independent movie. If your game or movie moves out of the independent bracket (that is, if your game sells more than 10,000 units, or your animation is shown on television or distributed to cinemas), then simply contact FX Realms to arrange an upgrade to your license.
================================================== ==========
Rich |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 27, 2007, 7:13pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hahahaha...
Don't you just love "open ended" contracts?;)
Creature Creator is cool, I looked into it once and almost went that way myself. Nothing against them, in particular, I just don't trust "open ended" contracts from any business. In this case you'd have to become quite a success to have to even worry about it, but what if that suddenly happens?
Open ended contracts are often just another way of saying; "Relax... make a lot of money with our product without worries, and then down the road a ways, after it's too late to say "No!" and you're already making a great income from using our product, THEN we'll let you know exactly how much you will already owe us... after we figure out exactly how much we can get from you, that is."
Just be sure with such contracts to remember to change Companies/Products well before you hit that "red flag" threshold.;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by Emma // Jul 27, 2007, 8:53pm
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Emma
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Hahahaha...
you pointed out very well what the facts are. If the conditions of that company really are like that, hmmmm let's think about it how that could be used for others
- my car company want's extra money if I drive more than 20000 km per year :(
- my mouse producer want's extra money as soon as I did my 1.001th mouse click with the right mouse button and much more money as soon as I reach the 10.001th mouse click with the left button:(
- oh, forgot, as soon as the ball inside the mouse has turned around 100.001th times extra cash has to be paid:(
Honestly, this is rediculous and if so a good reason I would never buy that software.
- It is ok that something like for example a watermark or prementioning in a trailer, less resolutions or similar is used for a "standard product":)
- It is ok that without above it costs more when you buy it:)
but waiting how others work on pushing the product on their own risk and than catching up "Hahahaha..." for sure not with me |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 27, 2007, 8:59pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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You look at a glass and see it half empty than... I see a chance to have thousands of different types of characters for someone who maybe a better designer, environment builder, game maker, movie creator to get their project created. I have only had minimal cont with the developer, so my opionion may not be accurate but I do not get the impression he is looking to make a mint on you and your project. If becoming an overnight sensation scares you you could always just send off an email before you make your million unit sensation, that way you would know for sure what your outlays will be.
Or you could hire a team of graphics artist to design and build all of these characters from scratch, spending many man years getting all of your characters into your project, How much do you think a competient modeler would expect to make for creating several hundred characters? :)
As for Creature Ctreator, it was a very fun program to play with. The characters bases and all of the options they offer (ears, eyes, nose, neck, chest, arms, hands, legs, feet, wings, tails... and than you can bring them into TS after creating them and alter them using the WS tools.
Pros:
Ability to model many different types of characters very quickly
Interesting variety of parts and base types of characters.
It almost feels like it is a limitless array of adjustments that a character can have.
Cons:
I was not impressed with the edge flow of the models, while they are adequate for most situations, I wish they were better.
It would be very cool if you could add new parts to the library!
Very fun package to play around in!
Rich
Hahahaha...
Don't you just love "open ended" contracts?;)
Creature Creator is cool, I looked into it once and almost went that way myself. Nothing against them, in particular, I just don't trust "open ended" contracts from any business. In this case you'd have to become quite a success to have to even worry about it, but what if that suddenly happens?
Open ended contracts are often just another way of saying; "Relax... make a lot of money with our product without worries, and then down the road a ways, after it's too late to say "No!" and you're already making a great income from using our product, THEN we'll let you know exactly how much you will already owe us... after we figure out exactly how much we can get from you, that is."
Just be sure with such contracts to remember to change Companies/Products well before you hit that "red flag" threshold.;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 27, 2007, 9:19pm
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3dvisuals dude
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You look at a glass and see it half empty than...
Nah, the points you made are valid ones... I just see "the glass" as having no valid need whatsoever for an undefined future usage restriction and/or usage penalty at the point of it's design.
I used to write contracts every week for several kinds of businesses I was involved in, even studied contract law a bit during those years, but if I ever presented a contract with an open ended undefined clause (with potential penalties which were also undefined) to the companies I presented those contracts to, I would have politely been shown to the door.;)
As I said above, "Creature Creator is cool" and my reaction to "open ended contracts" was "Nothing against them," it's just how I feel about "open ended contracts" in general.
I've heard many excuses for "open ended contracts," but I have yet to hear a related excuse I'd consider a valid one.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by splinters // Jul 27, 2007, 10:13pm
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splinters
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It would seem that the glass is neither half full nor half empty as the friendly landlord will happily keep filling it up for you.....unfortunately it is all going on your burgeoning tab which you will receive along with your hangover in the morning.
Just an analogy...I have no interest in this program, good or bad. |
Post by jydog // Jul 28, 2007, 1:05am
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jydog
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So it sounds as if it is not a fixed upgrade cost (as in it will cost $XXX to upgrade to unlimited use of this model ) but more like the more you sell, the more it costs. |
Post by JimB // Jul 28, 2007, 1:33am
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JimB
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I'm sure most if not all of you know about MakeHuman its not in the league of Creature Creator but its worth keeping an eye on.
http://www.dedalo-3d.com/index.php?par1=LXfPCglTkrz,lTGgUBwGIBTUpzFlI&sec=80a900c749d186cdb953a4e5c912c650
Jim |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 28, 2007, 1:35am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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So it sounds as if it is not a fixed upgrade cost (as in it will cost $XXX to upgrade to unlimited use of this model ) but more like the more you sell, the more it costs.
Well, you really should ask the company directly. Just because their ad didn't state a specific upgrade cost doesn't rule out the possibility that they already have a reasonable related fee schedule worked out which they could refer you to prior to getting involved with them, perhaps they do.
I have no idea about them specifically, nor their pricing / fee structure(s). The reason I didn't "go that way" before had nothing to do with those considerations, and for that matter, didn't even have anything to do with them or their product... I just decided against the approach of using parts made by others altogether after considering it for a while. A personal choice, not a business choice.
Obviously I object to all open ended contracts, but in the specific case of a toolset and/or service which provides one with a timely or unique advantage of some kind, there could be times when even I would enter into such a contract.... warily... but I would seek as much clarity in writing as possible before making such a choice and recommend you do the same.
The toolset is cool, as I said before, and from the sounds of it you would have to be extremely successful with it before the factors which would concern me would even arise. Still, seek clarity before commitment.;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 1:42am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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The point I was trying to get across is... "Ask FXRealms". A simple matter of an email and you will have a more general idea of what he/they do in your case. If you have a sure thing blockbuster on your hands, you are absolutely sure you are going to sell more than 10K copies, or your movie is going to be seen as the next summer hit... I would protect myself... or find another avenue.
Open ended contract or not, I have seen this in content packs before... whether your own morals or principals agree with it or not... that is the way this particular package is and the way that other content creators work also...
Rich |
Post by kena // Jul 28, 2007, 5:03am
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kena
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It's not something I would trust. No offense Rick, but their "schedule of upgrades" would be subject to change without notice. It is not part of the original contract and I have seen too many greedy people sue for really stupid things to actually trust that such people do not also make products. I fully doubt that a duffer like myself could ever break into the big time with my limited skills but distrust all such "helpers". I'm not a very good organic modeler anyway so will pass on this one. it just would not be worth the time it would take to send them an e-mail to get a possible vague reply. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 28, 2007, 5:48am
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Steinie
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Ok let me look at the figures for Creature Creator for:
Max cost $299
Lightwave cost $249
Maya $499
TS $139
Has anyone sold 10,000 copies of anything using TS before?
I think they have given us a nice deal!
Even if they doubled the price after 10000 copies wouldn't you think it was
worth it?
Edit: Also isn't it great that another Company is now supporting the new TS? That to me is also good news. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 28, 2007, 6:22am
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W!ZARD
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I think I agree with Steinie - and with Shakespeare when he said "Much ado about nothing".
If you DO happen to make something - a game or even just a single character - using Creature Creator and then start selling them simply add an extra dollar to the price. By the time you sell 10,000 units you'll have an extra ten grand in your pocket which should easily cover the cost of any upgrade to a full commercial licence!
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that 'they' are actually out to get you - I know this because the voices told me so..... |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 6:46am
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RichLevy
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It's not something I would trust. No offense Rick, but their "schedule of upgrades" would be subject to change without notice. It is not part of the original contract and I have seen too many greedy people sue for really stupid things to actually trust that such people do not also make products. I fully doubt that a duffer like myself could ever break into the big time with my limited skills but distrust all such "helpers". I'm not a very good organic modeler anyway so will pass on this one. it just would not be worth the time it would take to send them an e-mail to get a possible vague reply.
I would never expect anyone to go against their natural instincts. But... if it were me, and I REALLY thought I had something that could be a successful product I would talk to FXRealms about what my plans were and see what they were able to do for me. I have a feeling (though I do not know for sure, I am only going by my instincts :D ) that they would be very accommodating.
Frankly, I see the product fitting more to a smaller indie market than a wildly successful mainstream market. The models while being creative and interesting have been around for some time on many different markets, have a couple of limitations and require UVMaps and great textures.
The product you are getting is a great time saving tool for making generic monsters and creatures to populate you game/movie/promotion quickly and easily. I made some basic rigs, and included some basic limbs that are part of a limb library for the plugin. These are a good start point, and further help to make the jump to getting your characters into your project just alittle bit more simple. You would still need to UVMap the character, do weight maps for it than add IKHandles and locks to gain some control of the character so you need to weight whether or not all of those things are important to you.
Also, I discovered many workflow considerations while doing these rigs and TomG has put together 5 videos to help you work around and thru these... I have not seen the final product, I can not vouch for it other than saying what I have said here.
My personal take:
It is not a product I would purchase... not because it has no value for me, but because I can model pretty well, I do not have any plans for something that would require a lot of differing characters that I need to animate and get into a project quickly.
Hopefully this is enough for the on the fence guys. I like the fact that as Mr. Steinie says it is a product that is still being offered to TS user's. Their are prescisious few developer's still around for TS.
Now if it were me, and I could get them to include the ability to add new parts I would really think the package was "All That!!"
Imagine adding reverse legs, ability to have Snake lower section and a human upper section... or adding different animal parts to humans and visa-versa... eagle body and wings to man head... Than I would be all over this baby! :D Yea!!! Now that would be cool!!!
Anyway, that would just about include anything I have to add here.... the rest is up to each individual user whether the product fits what they are looking for.
Rich |
Post by kena // Jul 28, 2007, 8:05am
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kena
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I can certainty agree with you there. It's not for me. I'm really not the kind of person who would find enough value-added for it. I'm too much a casual user of 3d. :D |
Post by jydog // Jul 28, 2007, 9:47am
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I guess I was more interested in their “usage mindset”.
Just getting into modeling and such. What I would like is something to start a model that I can take and run from there with it. Sort of prototype ideas and if I like it develop it further. Reworking it into what I want.
But it looks as if you start with a CC model, it is “their model” no matter how much you change it. If “licensing” a “derived” model was quite “reasonable” it wouldn’t be such a problem.
And as stated, it just generates basic models. So much work is required afterwards.
But for me, the healthy cost of this program should give me the use of the resulting model without additional costs. If it was low cost or free then paying for resulting models for a reasonable fee also wouldn’t be so bad.
I might still consider it for the proto ideas. But then build something up from scratch (after I build up some skills). But seams to defeat its purpose, doesn’t it?
( Creature Lab would have been nice. )
FXRealm? |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 28, 2007, 10:03am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I guess I was more interested in their “usage mindset”.
Just getting into modeling and such. What I would like is something to start a model that I can take and run from there with it. Sort of prototype ideas and if I like it develop it further. Reworking it into what I want.
But it looks as if you start with a CC model, it is “their model” no matter how much you change it. If “licensing” a “derived” model was quite “reasonable” it wouldn’t be such a problem.
And as stated, it just generates basic models. So much work is required afterwards.
But for me, the healthy cost of this program should give me the use of the resulting model without additional costs. If it was low cost or free then paying for resulting models for a reasonable fee also wouldn’t be so bad.
I might still consider it for the proto ideas. But then build something up from scratch (after I build up some skills). But seams to defeat its purpose, doesn’t it?
( Creature Lab would have been nice. )
FXRealm?
Randy
You are also not reading what is in the text of the promotion in the ad or here. I never said it made a "Basic, model" in the context you refer.
Good luck with your descision and all the best to you :D
Rich |
Post by TomG // Jul 30, 2007, 7:29am
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TomG
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Hi all,
Just to let you know, contacting FX Realms is the way to go if you want to know more specifics about commercial licensing.
We cannot answer that as we resell this limited version product though this special partnership with them, and we do not deal in the full commercial license - this is the reason for the "open ended" look to things on the pages we produce. Doesn't mean that they will keep charging you more the more you sell etc, it just means Caligari does not sell the commercial license and you need to talk to FX Realms about it.
They will be the ones to answer the question fully. I'd ask everyone not to make assumptions about how the full commercial license would work - what I can tell you is that they have been very helpful to us here at Caligari, have set up a great offer for Caligari customers (I'd say you now have the best deal on Creature Creature of any software app out there), and have been very flexible and accomodating, and I am sure they will treat you the customer in the same way and would be more than happy to answer questions or concerns about the commercial licensing.
I'd go with "talk to them first, before starting to worry", rather than assuming the worst :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Burnart // Jul 30, 2007, 1:00pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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If you go to the FXRealm website the first thing you see is the message saying that Creature Creator is being replaced by a new product called Creature Lab! I'm also kind of surprised by a lack of a gallery of images showing the creatures created. We are told you can make an enormous variety from the large number of body parts but samples are virtually non-existent. I find this far more disturbing than the license business. Frankly, based on what is available in the promo info I don't know why anyone would buy it. Is there an export limited demo? |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 30, 2007, 1:21pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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If you go to the FXRealm website the first thing you see is the message saying that Creature Creator is being replaced by a new product called Creature Lab! I'm also kind of surprised by a lack of a gallery of images showing the creatures created. We are told you can make an enormous variety from the large number of body parts but samples are virtually non-existent. I find this far more disturbing than the license business. Frankly, based on what is available in the promo info I don't know why anyone would buy it. Is there an export limited demo?
Here is the demo page http://www.fxrealm.com/support/downloads_sa.htm
I used the demo a long time back, I think it is standalone.
I don't want anyone to take my word for it, but you could literally make 40-50 different characters in and hour or so after getting the basics of the program figured out... and that should only take 1/2 an hour to an hour before you know as much as you need to get some good monstrers coming out.
Rich |
Post by Burnart // Jul 30, 2007, 2:11pm
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Burnart
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Standalone demo. Gotcha. Thanks Rich. |
Post by TomG // Jul 31, 2007, 12:31pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I don't know why there aren't better images around. I've created a few (mostly random-ish) characters, and they work great - poly counts are pretty good and smooth to start with, but a quick application of SDS makes them fantastic.
With a good texture map, these would easily be awesome characters, which you can rig and pose in tS7.5 quite easily. That was always the biggest catch for tS6.6, that you got this character imported, but of course it was imported in the static T-pose and it was not so easy to pose or animate. That changes in tS7.5 and they become much easier to rig, especially thanks to the Limb Library that's included.
Anyway, I have some great models, just no time to texture them to really bring them to life. Attaching a quick GI render of my gargoyle, I think the model is pretty good for a 5 minute creation, it has muscle definition modeled into it, and if only it had a good texture map I think it would be pretty awesome! I can tell you this, there's no other way I'd get such a good gargoyle, with my character modeling skills!
Hopefully we'll see some tS users start to post with some good texture maps on here :) Not sure why such images aren't on the FX Realm site already, but maybe we can get them to update using our renders, so feel free to share!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by jydog // Aug 1, 2007, 7:22am
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jydog
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Let me start off by saying I am not trying to dis Creature Creator. I like the concept of it. In fact I had been looking for something similar for a while when I come upon info for it and had looked at the demos for CC and CL a little before I got the ad from Caligari for it. I have till Friday to decide if it will sway me over to trueSpace away from the gameSpace path or going with Carrara6.
My first post was asking if anyone had first hand experience with an upgrade path. I thought one great advantage of forums was one can ask others for their experiences. My bad.
I know FXRealm has 2 sites. Been there. Done that. But there is not an over abundance of info there, not even a forum I can find. I will likely ask for direct info from them at some time. Goes back to asking here for user experience. Sorry.
Caligari’s CC offering is a good deal, a $60 saving from FXRealm price. (CL for $139 would have been super.) It may sway me over. But I still feel it generates “base models”. Yes that is coming from someone who has trouble generating a base model on his own. I freely admit I am limited in my skills. That said, I believe CC is limited in its skills. I believe there is much more to building super products than a model (as important as it is to have a good base model). I could include a long list but doubt I need to in this forum. I have run across some interesting threads on the value of products and what goes into them. What looks like very old info from FXRealm states there will be many “content packs” (for lack of a better description) but I haven’t found any yet.
I did not mean to upset people. Just had a question. Honest. |
Post by frootee // Aug 1, 2007, 8:08am
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frootee
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You're not upsetting anyone here by any margin jydog.
In fact you're generating a healthy discussion about a new product. This is the only thread where people are posting their thoughts on this newly available product for truespace users.
If I had the money I'd buy it. I am personally not concerned about my models making it into Pirates of the Caribbean 4, or into the next Doom game. FXRealm is basically selling this product at a reduced price for casual
3D users. It's a good tool for quickly assembling characters. In layman's terms, they're also letting us know if we create a character and put it into a game that sells 10,000 + copies, then there are additional licensing fees. Well, I've been a truespace user since 4.3 and haven't sold anything I've created (I doubt anyone is surprised by that fact...:cool: ) . Not that I'm the worst modeller on the planet; I'm just saying that it's unlikely that any of us would have to worry about this additional licensing red tape b.s. applicable to Creature Creator.
Even if you put together an animation and post it here and it is viewed more than 10,000 times, you don't have to pay a fee, because you are not selling the animation for a profit.
I'd say, buy it for practice and inspiration. Then, when you modelling skills are strong, you'll be making your own models, and selling them, not the CC stuff.
Good thread!
Froo |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 1, 2007, 9:07am
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RichLevy
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For the record, I was not mad at you... I did not know if you were trying to stir contrivercy or ask legitimate questions. I did not want to be provoked into a long drawn out pointless dialog about the merits or not of this tool (which I stand 0.0 % chance of benefiting from :D).
Depending on whether you are putting these models in an older game engine, or a newer one, or just having fun altering and learning from the models you create will be a better guide. These models will range in polys form 4K uo to about 10K (with wings and tail models). So using them in an older game engine with more than a couple of models and very light mscenery geometry may be too much. Newr game engines will have less problems.
You can use these models in TS7.51 on the WS side and have fun adding geometry, using the SDS and soft selection tools... even using the normal maps and displacement brushes on them.
As I posted in another thread you can probably do 30-50 models in an hour with this tool/plugin. That is after you understand the program a bit. It is an easy program to learn. You should have all of the basics down in an hour of toying around with it.
Are they basic models? I don't think so, they have a fair amount of detail to them, will they work in the next blockbuster movie the way they are out of CC... no, but they are a long way up the road from basic.
Basic questions answered... let me see if I can up load a quick video or a model or 2...
HTH
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 1, 2007, 9:34am
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RichLevy
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I'm back... my time away allowed me to... load the CC plugin into TS7.62beta, install my serial number, locate the path to the objects and the projects folder, than do a quick Random Creature...
These 3 pictures show a character in the opening screen. I just created this character.
Pic 2 is the select parts screen
Pic#3 is the nose in the Select PArts screen. These are a few of your options.
I'll load a picture with a wire mesh view for your looking pleasure.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 1, 2007, 9:39am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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These are the wires for the same character and another I quickly did a Random Creature for. Both are in the WS side of TS7.52 beta.
HTH
Rich |
Post by GrimMoroe // Aug 1, 2007, 12:26pm
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GrimMoroe
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I know this will not be received well but I feel others should beware. I bought this program a long time ago....probably a couple of years; anyway I spent the money on it and never received the product. So I contacted them and they said they were sorry for the inconvenience and was shipping it right away. I thought ok just a simple mistake and waited for another month and received nothing. I contacted them again and they asked for my serial number and when I told them I never received anything from them aside from a "we will send it right away". He then said he would inquire about the issue and another 3 weeks went by and I heard nothing. I posted about this issue here on the forums and sent an email to caligari to beware of this company. Low and behold the head guy Per contacted me and gave me a number that made creature creator work, but never gave me a serial number. So the next time I had a problem I couldn't get tech support. Just wait it gets better. :) I contacted him again 4 times....after a bunch of negative posts here on the forums Per contacted me and said he would send me the beta creature lab and then the final release, if I would tell others how the company took care of my problems. So I did and he gave me the beta creature lab, it was ok at best. When I had problems with it I got no response from the company ever again and never received what I paid for. The version of creature lab I received was so buggy I couldn't do anything with it, and my creature creator could not be authorized because they never gave me a serial number. Now on to creature creator, honestly the models are very bad. If you really want to model creatures there are great books a lot cheaper that will help you ten fold. Sorry if this seems like a rant its not but I wish someone had told me what I am saying now before I wasted my money for a app that is not worth $10 much less the asking price. Buyer beware. |
Post by frootee // Aug 1, 2007, 2:47pm
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frootee
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That's fine to post this GrimMoroe, IMO. That's what was asked for in the first place: input.
Sorry to hear that.
Froo |
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