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Building shareable 3d spaces
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Building shareable 3d spaces // Roundtable
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 30, 2007, 8:39am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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This may have been better in the Tech Forum but here it is.
I have a simple objective - but the road to that objective seems somewhat obscure to me. The goal; to build a 3d space similar to the spaces on Caligari's truePlace server. Attributes I want this space to possess are; the ability to navigate through the space in FPS first person navigation - exactly as we can using truePlace to access Caligari's truePlaces.
I want to be able to place the neccessary files on a CD or just somewhere on my little home network, install truePlace on my partners PC and sit back and watch her explore the space I've made.
To acheive this goal I find that I am lacking vital information and insight into the construction process. The manual as it stands tells me about physics from the aspect of how to make a ball bounce - but I want to apply gravity to my entire space, I want to create specific areas where a visitor can and cannot go... heck basically I want to create a game-type environment that people can walk around in.
So, how does one acheive this without having to learn a whole lot of stuff that is currently (apparently) irrelevent to my requirements.
Once I've built such a space I may later want to add bouncing balls but right now I want to know the basic requirements for building.... say a model of a simple castle, with stairs and rooms and balconeys and bridges that a viewer can walk around in without falling through walls or off pathways and so on.
I'm assuming that what I'm after is actually fairly simple to acheive - (Caligari's TruePlaces show exactly the sort of thing I'm after).
Anyone who can give me a few pointers to get me started will receive my eternal gratitude. Any insight into how to go about this would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
W!ZARD (Now completely seduced by the power of the Dark Side and actually enjoying playing in the LE even with only a very rudimentary understanding of what he's doing!!) |
Post by Steinie // Jul 30, 2007, 12:58pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Come back! Come baaackkk Luke....
Be careful with your quest since truePlace 2.0 is coming and I don't believe compatible. I'm not sure about this but I don't want to see you put gobs of energy into a project that becomes outdated.
LE is the sewer system of TS! Why must we craw down there to get things done! Give me a flush handle and I'll be happy.:D
I want to be a Gardener not a Plumber. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jul 30, 2007, 6:40pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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This may have been better in the Tech Forum but here it is.
I have a simple objective - but the road to that objective seems somewhat obscure to me. The goal; to build a 3d space similar to the spaces on Caligari's truePlace server. Attributes I want this space to possess are; the ability to navigate through the space in FPS first person navigation - exactly as we can using truePlace to access Caligari's truePlaces.
I want to be able to place the neccessary files on a CD or just somewhere on my little home network, install truePlace on my partners PC and sit back and watch her explore the space I've made.
To acheive this goal I find that I am lacking vital information and insight into the construction process. The manual as it stands tells me about physics from the aspect of how to make a ball bounce - but I want to apply gravity to my entire space, I want to create specific areas where a visitor can and cannot go... heck basically I want to create a game-type environment that people can walk around in.
So, how does one acheive this without having to learn a whole lot of stuff that is currently (apparently) irrelevent to my requirements.
Once I've built such a space I may later want to add bouncing balls but right now I want to know the basic requirements for building.... say a model of a simple castle, with stairs and rooms and balconeys and bridges that a viewer can walk around in without falling through walls or off pathways and so on.
I'm assuming that what I'm after is actually fairly simple to acheive - (Caligari's TruePlaces show exactly the sort of thing I'm after).
Anyone who can give me a few pointers to get me started will receive my eternal gratitude. Any insight into how to go about this would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
W!ZARD (Now completely seduced by the power of the Dark Side and actually enjoying playing in the LE even with only a very rudimentary understanding of what he's doing!!)
Hi W!ZARD,
I'm sincerely hoping you will manage to draw a Caligari response to your post above, we would all benefit from sufficient info on these things right now. Until they do respond directly though, maybe I can fill in a few blanks.
I too would like a Primer in all this stuff. I see above you said you want to put truePlace on your partner's PC... I assume you meant "truePlay," but as Steinie already noted there is in fact an existing problem with truePlay Version 1.21 in that it simply cannot open Rsscn files (the kind you need to make for this kind of project) made by trueSpace 7.5 or 7.51.
I have been pretty vocal here at the forums about this issue and was informed first by Norm and lastly by TomG that this specific issue is currently being addressed by the Devs. It is a vital issue and they do know about it now, for sure.;)
The scenes you create inside trueSpace 7.51 which utilize DX-based materials and shaders will appear online just as they do in Workspace.
When one places a model or scene created in this way on a Caligari Server, it is hosted there by a software program called "trueServe," which can be leased on an annual basis from Caligari. This is the same software serving program used for "truePlaces."
When one places a model or scene onto a CD or DVD, however, I have absolutely no idea (since I haven't tried to yet) whether normal Physics associated with that scene in trueSpace is automatically applied to the Rsscn file on the disk. It may be that "truePlay" has this capacity inherently or the Rsscn file itself... and it's frustrating to not know these things already here.
As for "falling through" objects / models, as long as the mesh face normals of a given object consistantly point outward, an Avatar walking upon them should not fall through at all. as for dimensions of an actual Avatar used in "truePlaces" as a scale indicator for use in designing truePlace/shared space-type structures (ie: doors dimensions, window heights, ceiling heights, walkway widths, etcetera) the same dimensions used for Avatars in "truePlaces" is also used for Avatars in "Workspace" of TS7.xx, and those dimensions may be found by selecting an Avatar in Workspace (while in FPN) and then looking at it's settings in the Link Editor.
Note that in the LE you can also alter those Avatar default settings... changing colors, being able to leap 400 feet high... running or walking faster, etcetera. It may be that such changes are saved to Rsscn files, I need to know just as you do.
As far as creating specific places where a user may and may not go, there is no doubt a "trueServe" server-side control for access and permissions for various users and user-levels. WIthout "trueServe," one can create places which are not apparent to everyone visiting a more common intended social space, by creating scripted objects within the scene which require a password to activate (or even to have visible), so there are workarounds I think.
The absence of a Manual specific to these matters (designed specifically to assist us in-depth with the development of fully interactive and multi-user scenes) astonishes me. This is Caligari's greatest current strength in my opinion, sets them worlds apart from their competitors, and here we are still struggling with basic related information, when trueSpace 7.xx has been capable of making these scenes now for quite a while.
Perhaps, in all fairness, Caligari has been waiting for the opportunity to roll out just such a Shared Space Developers Manual until truePlay and trueServe had their upgrades. These things are imminent now though, according to the Captain's Blog anyway, so maybe they will surprise us soon with what we already need on this! That would be fine with me, as long as it is soon!;)
In the meantime, hopefully Caligari will step into this thread and help us.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by DotNetWebs // Jul 31, 2007, 8:15am
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DotNetWebs
Total Posts: 24
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Good post 3dvisuals dude
As I expressed before this is an area I am interested in. I remain convinced that an affordable entry level version of trueServe could be a killer application.
Regards |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 1, 2007, 5:00am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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@Steinie - Never fear my friend, as long as I have my trusty Light Teaspoon to hand the Dark side cannot harm me. And as soon as things get too scarey I rush back across the bridge to the safety and serenity of the model side!
@3DVD - yeah I recall reading about the tS/tP incompatability issues but I'm not about to let that stop me learning a bit about things. I thought I'd be cunning and so I loaded up the default Rosetta scene that we see when starting up truePlay and had a bit of a look under the hood so to speak. An interesting exercise. I found some obviously important objects in the LE that I've not seen documented anywhere (which doesn't mean that it's not documented, just that I've not seen any documents - I may have missed them).
Anyway, I played around, changed some textures, rescaled some things and then opened the resulting RsScn with tP 1.21 and I could still get around the modified scene OK. One interesting thing I found was that many of the materials used in the opening scene are actually LW mats rather than DX9.
No doubt this will become easier in time when the guys at The Big "C" get some more documentation and the current compatability woes sorted out.
Here's a little taste of my explorations.... (I hope the original author doesn't mind).
Meantime, I'm still playing and dabbling and experimenting. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 6:07am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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@Steinie - Never fear my friend, as long as I have my trusty Light Teaspoon to hand the Dark side cannot harm me. And as soon as things get too scarey I rush back across the bridge to the safety and serenity of the model side!
@3DVD - yeah I recall reading about the tS/tP incompatability issues but I'm not about to let that stop me learning a bit about things. I thought I'd be cunning and so I loaded up the default Rosetta scene that we see when starting up truePlay and had a bit of a look under the hood so to speak. An interesting exercise. I found some obviously important objects in the LE that I've not seen documented anywhere (which doesn't mean that it's not documented, just that I've not seen any documents - I may have missed them).
Anyway, I played around, changed some textures, rescaled some things and then opened the resulting RsScn with tP 1.21 and I could still get around the modified scene OK. One interesting thing I found was that many of the materials used in the opening scene are actually LW mats rather than DX9.
No doubt this will become easier in time when the guys at The Big "C" get some more documentation and the current compatability woes sorted out.
Here's a little taste of my explorations.... (I hope the original author doesn't mind).
Meantime, I'm still playing and dabbling and experimenting.
Hah! This is cool!
Great idea!!! I've gotta see what's under the hood on this stuff in the LE too now... I'll bet there's a few nice scripts to play with in there!:D
Since truePlay1.21 downloads ALL the truePlaces onto our local drives, I wonder if we can access these locally as well? I never tried that! Might be some nice LE goodies mixed in there as well!:)
I wish I had TS7.1 so I could save Rsscn files which work with truePlay 1.21 until the Devs solve the compatability issue, but like a few others here I went straight from 6.6 to 7.5, which rules out my being able to test my own new CD-based Rsscn files with truePlay1.21. If you have TS7.1 you can test them on CD... all the truePlaces were made with TS7.1 I'm pretty sure, so it should work fine until the fix arrives.
So... LW mats rather than DX9 mats? Hahahaha.... I asked TomG about that a while back... they didn't all look like DX9 stuff to me either... interesting discovery.
I see you placed the "Visit truePlaces" sign upside-down... an International sign of distress?
Nice floor, btw, and it's nice seeing Avatars there which don't look like part of the notorious Cone Cult too.
DotNetWebs and I had a discussion about a few things related to this stuff in another thread recently... he's developing his own Microsoft Virtual Earth program currently which sound very interesting.
As he said, it sure would be nice if trueServe came in a "lite" version which was more readily affordable by most hobby-level modelers here, but maybe that's kind of what Roman has in mind with the upcoming rentable "private" shared spaces referred to in several places at the forums here.
Have you noticed the deafening silence here, or is it just me?;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by frootee // Aug 1, 2007, 6:16am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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What? Eh?
:p |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 6:23am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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What? Eh?
:p
Thanks Frootee. Much better now.:rolleyes:
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 6:35am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Have you noticed the deafening silence here, or is it just me?;)
- 3dvisuals dude
Sitting on the fence and listning little bird !
PEEEEEEEP
I´m so silent because I dont have a clue about what you are
talking about......hehehehehe
:D |
Post by jayr // Aug 1, 2007, 6:48am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Have you noticed the deafening silence here, or is it just me?;)
Shhhhhh.. be very, very quiet, i'm hunting wabbits... |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 6:54am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Sitting on the fence and listning little bird !
PEEEEEEEP
I´m so silent because I dont have a clue about what you are
talking about......hehehehehe
:D
Ahhhh, a live one.... muhahahaha...
OK RAYMAN.... ready for an adventure?
If you do a search in the forums here for a thread entitled "Let's build trueTown," you will find a year-old post from Roman which started the ball rolling so to speak. It's a very interesting thread, too short though, unfortunately.
Since that time, there have been dozens of posts and threads scattered around the forums here which touch on some of the issues and ideas raised in that first thread, and the latest one, aside from this one that is, is again from Roman in his "Captain's Blog" thread... his latest post there.
That latest post from Roman is extremely exciting for those of us who would like to build our own interactive scenes for online multi-user exploration within Caligari's "truePlay" software, in that we will soon be able to have our own "private" shared space areas on a Caligari server to do so (rented, of course).
This will enable many folk here to utilize trueSpace's unparalelled capabilities for actual immersive and fully interactive online multi-user realtime scene development. Some folk here already intend to do so as an adjunct to their existing websites, for instance, enabling their existing clientelle to actually meet them in an environment online which is created to compliment their existing website and business offerings.
Others, like myself, intend to utilize it to develop feasibility tests for scenes intended eventually for "trueServe" hosting... a more flexible alternative which allows complete branding and server control, at a steeper price of course. It would allow us to take that plunge in stages on a per-scene / per-world / per project basis... which is a very attractive thing for those of us currently considering a larger investment in trueServe down the road.
Oh... one other thing too...
this stuff is a blast.:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 6:55am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Shhhhhh.. be very, very quiet, i'm hunting wabbits...
Carefull... they all look like Cones in here too...
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 7:06am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Ahhhh, a live one.... muhahahaha...
OK RAYMAN.... ready for an adventure?
Oh... one other thing too...
this stuff is a blast.:D
- 3dvisuals dude
Did I mention that I´m on that fence for some time.....hehehehe
:D
I know whats going on.
i just cant build my own yet !
I´m more lets say "passiv" on that at the moment....;)
I read and gather information.
Its a cool development ! |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 7:17am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Did I mention that I´m on that fence for some time.....hehehehe
:D
I know whats going on.
i just cant build my own yet !
I´m more lets say "passiv" on that at the moment....;)
I read and gather information.
Its a cool development !
Ah, OK, I was under the impression from your first reply that you weren't familiar with the subject matter... sorry, my bad.
You ~CAN~ build your own though... it's almost as easy as making any other trueSpace scene except you actually travel around inside the scene as you are creating it and it needs to be designed with the end-user in mind, who will also be traveling around in it with you and others via truePlay.
What kind of world would you like to see and explore online?
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 7:52am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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What kind of world would you like to see and explore online?
- 3dvisuals dude
What I would have clients for is jewlery !
The problem is the shaders part !
I´m having a hard time at the moment tying to render some diamonds.
I´m sort of experimenting with all kinds of offline renderengines to get
good results and sort of fail miserably... let alone the realtime shaders .
You know it would be nice for clients to be able to explore the
whole store online.....and to go from precious item to the other.
I guess we are not there yet. But I´m open for any experiments. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 9:40am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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What I would have clients for is jewlery !
The problem is the shaders part !
I´m having a hard time at the moment tying to render some diamonds.
I´m sort of experimenting with all kinds of offline renderengines to get
good results and sort of fail miserably... let alone the realtime shaders .
You know it would be nice for clients to be able to explore the
whole store online.....and to go from precious item to the other.
I guess we are not there yet. But I´m open for any experiments.
Cool, I didn't know you were a Jeweler, but there's lots of ways to incorporate that business into immersive multi-user space.
You've probably already been to the Renderosity Shared Space Gallery that's mentioned on the Caligari Homepage, for instance, and what they do is show somewhat low resolution framed images (which could just as easily be photographs of Jewelry) which when clicked upon by visitors opens a web browser page pertaining to those images with greater detail and higher resolution versions of those same images.
A similar method could readily be employed for a Jeweler, the fun though really comes in when you look at it from the standpoint of providing Events in those spaces, something which the clients will deeply enjoy and find utterly unique to your business. Do that well and word would spread in all the right ears quite rapidly, no doubt.;)
There's really no need to tie yourself to overcoming gem rendering problems in the process, think of it rather as providing an interactive photo gallery where interesting related events occur on a regularly scheduled basis daily, and where your favorite clients will deeply enjoy inviting their friends along with them for a fun and free virtual truePlay tour!:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 10:17am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Meantime, I'm still playing and dabbling and experimenting.
Yep... me too for sure.:D
A while back here I was looking at ways to draw more people more often into truePlaces, and since we are essentially looking at ways to effectively develop our own versions of truePlaces in this thread, I was hoping you might want to comment on this one related idea, and maybe develop your own version of it as well. There are lots of ways to do it so the more variations the better I think.
Here's what I said back then, see what you think about the idea:
I was just thinking about the "hide and seek" aspect of the successful Easter Egg Hunt event, and I recall before the internet became what it now is, many of us Telnet users used to play a text game online with multiple simultaneous users called "Quest for Magic."
It was a very addictive game, and although the basics were simple enough for a firstime user to grasp and immediately start exploring and text-communicating with fellow explorers... there were "powers" one could gain by picking up certain usually-hidden items or deciphering riddles whos keys were to be found only by the most persistent of explorers. As I said, this game was extremely addictive, but also had the side-effect of gathering a HUGE (1200 member) membership base for the particular BBS site that hosted it within only three months after launching it.
That's food for thought there for me at least... perhaps there are scripts which could be employed within truePlaces to offer something similar. That's just one idea... I have many!;)
Food for W!ZARD-ly thought?:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by trueBlue // Aug 1, 2007, 10:34am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Just a few pointers:
Use an EntryPoint camera as your entry point. Where as when the user first enters your shared space this will be the location where you want them to start from. Keep in mind that once FPN is activated the Avatar will drop to the ground if you have Gravity set accordingly.
When you activate First Person Navigation within trueSpace7 a FP Properties node is created in the Link Editor. Use this to set your Avatar's Height, Weight, Eye position, and Radius. I believe Radius is used with Triggers which you can find in the Objects - Tutorial Objects library. In the Speed aspect is where you can set Walk, Run, and Jump speeds. In the Advance aspect is where you can set Gravity.
Experiment with these settings one by one while using FPN. truePlay is trueSpace7 without creation tools so until truePlay is released just use trueSpace7. Once truePlay is released and installed on your partner's PC it would be as simple as Double Clicking on your Castle.RsScn file to open it in truePlay from the CD player. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 10:41am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Just a few pointers:
Thanks trueBlue,
Do you know whether the gravity standard (and any local variances to that) within an Rsscn file are saved to that scene or whether truePlay controls a gravity standard itself?
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 10:58am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Cool, I didn't know you were a Jeweler......
There's really no need to tie yourself to overcoming gem rendering problems in the process, ....
- 3dvisuals dude
3d visuals dude !
Im not a jeweler !
Im a photographer working for jewelers. 3D is moving fast into our business
... if you look at car imaging business more and more cars are being
rendered rather then photographed. So its vital for me to get down to the
bottom of photorealistics.I´m realy badly involved into render and shader
testing at the moment. There is no way out !
I cant tell my client well I cant make that picture or I cant
make that shared space where people can manipulate the jewels online
but you could have an online party instead.
like I said ...... shared spaces are at the beginning and I am right
on that fence watching out for realism to come and jump onto that
train....... I know that its just around the corner
;) In the meantime some nice experiments with shared spaces could be a good training for me;) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 1, 2007, 11:22am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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3d visuals dude !
Im not a jeweler !
Im a photographer working for jewelers. 3D is moving fast into our business
... if you look at car imaging business more and more cars are being
rendered rather then photographed. So its vital for me to get down to the
bottom of photorealistics.I´m realy badly involved into render and shader
testing at the moment. There is no way out !
I cant tell my client well I cant make that picture or I cant
make that shared space where people can manipulate the jewels online
but you could have an online party instead.
like I said ...... shared spaces are at the beginning and I am right
on that fence watching out for realism to come and jump onto that
train....... I know that its just around the corner
;) In the meantime some nice experiments with shared spaces could be a good training for me;)
Hahahaha! I'm batting 1000 here! Hahahaha!
What threw me was when you said "What I would have clients for is jewlery !," and that you were "having a hard time at the moment tying to render some diamonds." Somehow Photography didn't quite come across there...;)
The "party instead" part is pretty funny, I liked that.:D
As far as having people manipulate the jewels online that is possible via photography if you use an appropriate java applet to display the gems, "Cult 3D" comes to mind here, for instance, but there are many such applets.
A photograph of a jewelry item can be manipulated by mouse pointer in 3D Space with such an applet, and such an applet can be attached to any object in shared space as well, so the gallery analogy still holds promise.
There is one very sound piece of directly related advice I can give you though, contact Jesse at the MOI forum.... he's an extremely helpful fellow MOI enthusiast who also happens to be a highly successful Jeweler... the odds are he could point you in the direction of the perfect Java applet to enable realtime interaction with gem models, he even makes gem models for the folks at the MOI forum. All you need is the right applet and the rest is just... a party!:D
Hahahaha!
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 1, 2007, 12:25pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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3d visuals dude !
Thanks for the info !
Had a goog laugh here too ! hehehe:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 2, 2007, 12:31am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Just a few pointers:
Use an EntryPoint camera as your entry point. Where as when the user first enters your shared space this will be the location where you want them to start from. Keep in mind that once FPN is activated the Avatar will drop to the ground if you have Gravity set accordingly.
When you activate First Person Navigation within trueSpace7 a FP Properties node is created in the Link Editor. Use this to set your Avatar's Height, Weight, Eye position, and Radius. I believe Radius is used with Triggers which you can find in the Objects - Tutorial Objects library. In the Speed aspect is where you can set Walk, Run, and Jump speeds. In the Advance aspect is where you can set Gravity.
Experiment with these settings one by one while using FPN. truePlay is trueSpace7 without creation tools so until truePlay is released just use trueSpace7. Once truePlay is released and installed on your partner's PC it would be as simple as Double Clicking on your Castle.RsScn file to open it in truePlay from the CD player.
LOL! It's so easy when you know how! I've discovered the 'FP Properties' node, I've dug around inside it and figured out most of the settings and what they do - my sticking point was how does one invoke an FP node in the first place. Thanks for clearing that up Blue - most appreciated. I think that where I am getting lost (slowly working it out) is the current lack of a "TruePlaces; An overview and guide to basic principles".
Many of these basic principles become quite self evident the more one delves into the nodes and explores what the settings do. In fact (and I can hear a chorus of groans already) this type of exploration is a great way to learn as you figure so much out for yourself. Of course if you are someone who prefers to follow a tutorial and to learn that way it's probably a little more frustrating. My personal preference is to have a reasonably clear idea of what I want to end up with and to figure out what I need to know to acheive this. My learning is therefore project based and anything I learn is then applied to that specific project.
The idea of loading up something that someone else has built (from the tS libraries for example) and 'deconstructing' it to see how it works is probably a very valid and useful learning strategy but looking at what someone else built is not as immediately satisfying as building something myself.
No doubt in a few months time I'll have learned so any new things that this post will seem pointless, updates versions of truePlay will be out as will manual updates and eventually upgrades to trueSpace as well.
But TrueBlues sentence "When you activate First Person Navigation within trueSpace7 a FP Properties node is created in the Link Editor." has clarified so much for me I'm still feeling a little amazed.
The Caligarians have been telling us about the power of the LE for sometime now and I, for one, have been thinking "yeah, Yeah" but we never needed it before, it looks complex, what do we really need it for? Then every now and then I get a realisation as to just how powerful and amazing the LE is and feel a little bit of awe towards the guys that built it.
I'm still thinking that using the LE as a DX9 material editor seems... inelegant. But I also concede I may be using it inelegantly. Often there is a temptation to see things as way more complex than they really are. Driving a car is really complex when you've never done it before but once you really know how to drive you don't even have to think about it because it's so simple.
Thanks again Blue - I appreciate the input. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 2, 2007, 1:54am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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@3DVD - Thanks again for your input here - and at the risk of possibly exciting you further let me say again how much I enjoy your enthusiasm - it quite contagious.
You asked about my thoughts regarding the use of true-type-places for multi-user online game scenarios - you mentioned Quest for Magic. Hmmmn. I dunno if I'm the best guy to ask that question of.
Firstly, let me say that I suspect that these 3d spaces would be ideal environments for games such as this. When I was younger I went through the obligatory Dungeons and Dragons phase and so I can easily imagine shared 3d spaces being used to house such role playing games.
Secondly let me say also that I wouldn't personally be very interested in such games though - I've played my share of games in the past and these days I feel that time spent playing any sort of game is time wasted that could otherwise have been spent doing something creative. (This is not a comment against people who enjoy various games, rather it's a comment about my drive to be creative!).
I'm essentially a loner type of guy, reclusive and very fond of solitude and my own company. Thus you won't find me going to the movies ar attending concerts or sporting events where there are lots of people around - I've been to plenty such things in the past and these days I prefer my own company to that of the masses. This preference extends to my online activities - I love this forum in part because it's small and friendly, I don't go to other online venues where there are lots of people. My preference is for meaningful interactions with other individuals rather than more superficial interactions with a crowd.
These two factors mean I would have little interest in partaking in any online games or interactive activities. This, in a nutshell is why I didn't get myself involved with the truePlace spacestation project - is that still going anywhere?
An additional factor to consider here is that due to the exorbitant pricing of Broadband access in this country I'm still limited to a slow dial-up connection which, even if I was interested, would certainly detract from online interactivity for me.
As you know I am primarily a hobby artist and my interest is in expressing the visions I see in my imagination - and if other folk enjoy those visions too well so much the better. My interest in 3d spaces lies primarily in the direction of creating such spaces as artforms in their own right - instead of simply looking at a 2d representation of an imagined scene I want to be able to enter that scene and walk around inside it. Amongst other things I'm imagining a sort of virtual Madam Toussauds Wax Museum where one enters the picture and can walk around the 3d tableau.
Thus the focus for me would be firstly the interaction between the creator and the space created and subsequently the interaction between the viewer/visitor and the created space.
Of course if someone else wanted to host some sort of RPG in a space I had created I would certainly be open to that but it would not be a specific end that I would feel motivated to move toward.
Hope that answers you question. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 2, 2007, 2:10am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Do you know whether the gravity standard (and any local variances to that) within an Rsscn file are saved to that scene or whether truePlay controls a gravity standard itself?
- 3dvisuals dude
This exactly the sort of 'basic principles' question that plagues me - and given the current lack of detailed documentation it seems that exploring existing setups is our best option.
The questions I have are; what if I build a ship and I'm walking around on deck in FP mode and accidently fall overboard? Does the FP actor viewpoint then start strolling around on the ocean? Or does it sink beneath the waves? How does one set things up either way?
What if a FP viewpoint falls overboard from a flying airship? Does gravity pull it to the bottom of the scene? What are the options for getting the FP actor back on board the airship?
No doubt that I could figure these questions out myself with a bit of experimentation - but such experimentation is different to actively working on my scene. I suppose this is a good opportunity for me to practice patience if nothing else!! :D |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 2, 2007, 3:11am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Ah... a kindred spirit indeed.
It's kind of funny really, throughout my teens and twenties I was essentially a loner by preference as well, and even now at the age of 51 I tend to be far less socially involved than most people I know, not that I can't be when I must be, rather that I simply enjoy social interaction a great deal less than I have always enjoyed the satisfaction of creating things, whether those creations were music, business endeavors, 3D models and scenes, or lately (and the most exciting of all for me) the development of immersive 3D multi-user environments.
I'm also not much of a "gamer," per se, I don't even own any, but I do find the methods of developing interactivity within immersive scenes to be a genuinely fascinating development field in it's own right... like my forum signature implies, I always see "usefulness" in the aspects of a given scene which are absent, rather than present.
When I first explored "truePlaces" that fact really hit me like a ton of bricks... ...here were all these interesting places which could be ~so much more~ interesting with just a few more highly interactive alterations here and there... I wasn't even ten minutes into exploring them when I realized I was "hooked," I simply had to learn how to create and develop these alternate interactive experiences for others... and thereby for myself vent the creative impulses to do so which would otherwise drive me mad!;)
The enormity of the potential which Caligari has placed squarely in the hands of 3D Modelers via the simultaneous deployment of trueSpace7.xx, trueServe, and truePlay is profoundly exciting to me. These three tools together not only open new worlds of possibility for modelers, they literally enable the genuine creation of new worlds of possibility. Highly interactive and deeply immersive worlds, at that, whether they be for business, gaming, social interaction, realtime collaboration, or private "virtual vacations," what Caligari is doing by this is truly "momentous," and I deeply respect their foresight and insight in making the vital tools for such opportunities a genuine reality for us all. Great times these, thanks to Team Caligari.
The thought of developing a realtime multi-user ~clue hunting~ and ~powers seeking~ fantasy rpg in shared space does appeal to me as a creative challenge though, so I'll no doubt pursue that in one way or another before long. There are so many other and unrelated uses for shared spaces which also spring to mind for me every day though, that I've already begun compiling a rather large list of them... many being potentially quite lucrative as well. The key in all this for me is drawing the line on related priorities, and in that regard I'm very much still learning.;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 2, 2007, 3:41am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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This exactly the sort of 'basic principles' question that plagues me - and given the current lack of detailed documentation it seems that exploring existing setups is our best option.
The questions I have are; what if I build a ship and I'm walking around on deck in FP mode and accidently fall overboard? Does the FP actor viewpoint then start strolling around on the ocean? Or does it sink beneath the waves? How does one set things up either way?
What if a FP viewpoint falls overboard from a flying airship? Does gravity pull it to the bottom of the scene? What are the options for getting the FP actor back on board the airship?
No doubt that I could figure these questions out myself with a bit of experimentation - but such experimentation is different to actively working on my scene. I suppose this is a good opportunity for me to practice patience if nothing else!! :D
One time I decided to find the answer to this question out for myself in truePlaces, so I jumped over the railing in the Speed Modelers Gallery!:D
What a bear it was getting back up there! Hahahaha! Rapidly repetetive jumping up and against steeply inclined walls is no fun, trust me on that one! But at least I did find out that the skydome was in fact a sphere! Hahahaha!
Another time I was bored in there and decided to do it again! I had to exit truePlay on that journey to return to the top, somehow I couldn't manage to duplicate the wall jumping success of my previous expedition!:o
You won't drown, not in there at least, the water has no depth, although I suppose if you wanted to you could create water which does... you'd just have to either disable collision for the surface or reverse the normals of the surface to enable an Avatar to pass through it.
As for airships I would strongly advise the design and availability of parachutes.:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 2, 2007, 4:16am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Forget the parachutes... ;)
If you want to have people traveling in high places who needn't worry about falling to their virtual death, you could create various methods to prevent that without those methods being immediately obvious to your travelers.
1) A physical mesh wall around an airship, for instance, with a texture transparency set to 100 percent. They could see through it, and in fact couldn't see it at all, but they would collide with it nevertheless, preventing any unecessary skydiving.:D
2) A Proximity Sensor Script could be modified from the existing Caligari scripted objects for utilization in this regard (and for many other cool effects). It could activate anything you can imagine... and that's a lot!:D
A flat square invisible mesh plane, for instance, placed beneath the airship and tied to a Scripted Trigger could be utilized with a Proximity Sensor to literally send the Avatar to any point in space... even different shared spaces, or to be more orthodox... back onboard!:D
HTH
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 2, 2007, 6:41am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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1) A physical mesh wall around an airship, for instance, with a texture transparency set to 100 percent. They could see through it, and in fact couldn't see it at all, but they would collide with it nevertheless, preventing any unecessary skydiving.:D
HTH
- 3dvisuals dude
LOL! There's me making it way more difficult than it need be! That's a simple and elegant idea. The proximity detector is cool too - I like the idea of someone falling overboard, going "oops!" then unexpectedly triggering the proximity detector which beams them back on board! That's too cool! |
Post by Paul Boland // Aug 2, 2007, 8:48am
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Paul Boland
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Hi Folks.
Sorry I haven't been actively on the forums recently. My Ma's one year anniversary of her passing is coming up and I'm battle some very powerful emotions at the moment.
I'm afraid to say that my use of TrueSpace 7.51 is still very much rooted in the learning phases. The interface is so different that it may just as well be a whole new package and not have a printed manual that I can read in bed is really slowing me down (I am reading the PDF manual but I'm not a fan of PDF manuals and find reading manuals on my PC a bit tedious!).
However, this is one area I am very interested in getting into. This topic is massive long and I've read most of it and skimmed through the rest of it. I will sit down and read it, start to finish, as soon as I can. But unless I missed it, I don't think Caligari have replied here. That's very disappointing.
The creation of a 3D world that folks can explore is one of the driving forces behind me making the upgrade to 7.51 (it wasn't the only reason). I was very excited by the concept, still am. But I have to agree with what other users here are saying, where's the users manual for getting into this area?
For me, I'd like to create a 3D world for games I made on my website. While using the Caligari TruePlace servers so many folks can be online in my world at once is very exciting and something I'll certainly look into, for right now, just a stand alone world is all I want to make. Something that someone can download to their machine, open it in TruePlay and explore it at their lessure.
But what's the do's and don't's?
What's the dimensions you need to take into account?
What about textures? Size, format, etc.? What's allowed and what's not?
And how we make the worlds?
Come on, Caligari, give us something on this, please! There seems to be a lot of interest in this. |
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