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TruePlay Envronment Comp?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
TruePlay Envronment Comp? // Roundtable
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 10:36am
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jayr
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How do people feel about this? I know there's been a few new comps start recently so would anyone have the time/ inclination/ energy left do take part in one like this? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2007, 10:38am
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Jack Edwards
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I think Caligari should add an official monthly truePlay contest like the image and animation contests. The wining project could be added to the truePlay spaces available on Caligari's TP server.
-Jack. |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 10:41am
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A nice idea jack but i thought they were going to reduce the number of locations so more people would meet up when using it. Mind you if they were there for the month they won that would work i think. |
Post by frootee // Aug 3, 2007, 10:43am
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well I think a competition should be started by us, the users, much like the popular SMC. There is a diverse set of folks here, and their artistic interests are just as diverse. So some folks are very interested in modelling, or animation, while others are strongly interested in trueplay environments.
I'd say go for it! I don't think this will dilute the other competition(s); rather, it will encourage more people to compete in their area of interest.
Froo |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 11:04am
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jayr
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well I think a competition should be started by us, the users, much like the popular SMC. There is a diverse set of folks here, and their artistic interests are just as diverse. So some folks are very interested in modelling, or animation, while others are strongly interested in trueplay environments.
I'd say go for it! I don't think this will dilute the other competition(s); rather, it will encourage more people to compete in their area of interest.
Froo
good point, what about rules then, a month time limit? Don't really want to put ant restrictions on content, i'd like to see what possible. |
Post by frootee // Aug 3, 2007, 11:12am
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I would say, 3 weeks time limit, plus 1 week for voting, as Jack has done with the MMC.
Rules? What rules? :D
Seriously though, not sure what types of rules to impose.
Only thing to do that I can think of is, post a result that everyone can walk around in. I don't think any other app can be used to do that, and be able to use truespace/trueplay to walk/run/fly around in it.
Froo |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 12:00pm
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jayr
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3 weeks? hmmm could be cutting it fine seen as i haven't a clue on how you go about making a trueplay environment, i'll have to get looking around the forum! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2007, 12:47pm
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You could do 6 weeks and 2 weeks for voting. I think creating whole 3D environments would take longer than creating a scene for a single image.
-Jack. |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 12:50pm
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That sounds better jack.
How different is creating a trueplay scene to a normal scene? Is it just a case of appling physical proerties to objects? something tells me it's a lot more that that. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 3, 2007, 12:58pm
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Depending on how much work you want to put in, it can involve a fair bit of scripting.
There probably need for a TP scene making tutorial to go along with any kind of TP challenge.
I've had this idea for doing something wacky like FFVII chocobo races gold saucer kind of TP scene -- ya know all neon colors and makes your eyes bleed kinda thing. :p but I'm not sure I'll have time to do something like that any time soon.
-Jack. |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 1:04pm
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A tutorial would be a nice idea. There are a few people here who have been doing a lot of trueplay stuff i think, i seem to remember a thread by 3dvisuals dude a while ago.
just realized i've past the 300 post mark. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 3, 2007, 2:45pm
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Wow.
This came as a surprise I must say! A nice surprise indeed.:)
I've read all that you guys stated above and I would like to help you with this adventure... and that's exactly what it will be, no doubt!:D
First off, however, I should make clear my own position in this since it's going to be different than most for several reasons I had better clarify.
I will refrain personally from entering any of these competitions but I will support the effort in a different way. My reasoning in this is explained below.
What I will do to support this effort of yours is provide as much personal assistance as I possibly can on any directly-related level to every individual who chooses to become a part of your "truePlay Environment Competition" effort and requests such assistance either in posts or PM. I won't "play favorites" with that support either, I'll sincerely attempt to help each of you on an unbiased level in this.
My reasons for declining personal involvement beyond what I offered above are several.
1) I have a massive head start on everyone here in this so it would be quite unfair for me to compete. I've already personally created over 60 such "immersive environments" to date, only one of which you are all familiar with here. That said, however, I am very much still a student of this field (and I'm a relative idiot when it comes to LE skills, for instance), so I'll be learning as we go just like the rest of us here in this.:o
2) As I've already stated here in a few places, I plan to join with numerous partners in the establishment of several directly-related businesses, renting Caligari's "trueServe" hosting software and setting up MMOVW server hardware and T1/T3 lines in the not too distant future (if all continues according to plan). A couple of these "partnership" ventures have already begun at a preliminary level and will be expanding very soon as we will be seeking many more for various independent "satellite projects" worldwide on an ongoing basis. As such, there are "time sensitive" aspects accordingly to the currently planned rollout of certain immersive shared space interactive scenes and features which I must respect on behalf of these partners, so for me to enter a directly-related "open" competition which has the likely potential of touching on these same interactive features would not be very wise on my part at this particular time. Even in a "sidelines helper" capacity there still may arise certain specific help I am not able to provide due to either these potential conflicts of interest or actual related NDA's. This will likely be a rare occurance but the potential for it will definitely exist.
3) I believe firmly that Immersive Scene Development ~IS~ the future of 3D Modeling, although it has already arrived for each of us. As such, I would prefer to encourage others who stumble and fail in it rather than directly compete with them accordingly. This is not to say that I think a related competition is a bad thing, on the contrary... rather that I believe it is a seriously good thing, but could benefit from "helpers on the sidelines" such as myself, in that competition by nature inevitably disappoints those who lose.
What you are all considering here in this thread could become a truly major factor in the advancement of common immersive space-related skillsets within this community, so I applaud your initiative and offer my full support (inasmuch as I am able to) to help you make it a success.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 3, 2007, 5:16pm
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3dvisuals dude
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There are two things I hope you might consider before you formally begin this "truePlay Environment Competition."
The first is that there are a great many highly talented individuals here who do not posess trueSpace7.xx yet but who would quite likely appreciate your providing them with an opportunity to take part in this nevertheless. Accordingly it would be nice if you made this competition open to ~all~trueSpace users, even those who will require the assistance of others here to place their creations within TS7.xx rsscn files or develop specific scene-related scripting.
The second is to rename the competition to something like "The Immersive Environments Competition," to draw and sustain the interest and involvement of many who may wish to develop immersive and interactive scenes which are intended for offline usage rather than "truePlace" usage, such as scenes offered to clients, prospective clients, family, and friends via CD rather than online.
These types of immersive scenes would require truePlay as well of course, but aren't normally associated with truePlay to the extent which "truePlaces" are. As a result, I think perhaps quite a few people who may already wish to create CD-based immersive environments for exploration via truePlay might think that a "truePlay Environment Competition" has only to do with truePlaces, given that the two have been so firmly associated with each other to date. Just a thought...
This is a great idea you all have here and I'm very glad you've all decided to do this.:)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 3, 2007, 6:52pm
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One last thought about starting this off on the right foot...
I suggest you invite Roman directly to enter your first competition.
- 3dvisuals dude
EDIT: I just realized that some may begin to visualize all manner of ulterior motives for my making the suggestion above, so here's the only two reasons I made it:
1) Roman started this whole great concept of truePlaces and invited us all to join him in the creation of such immersive environments in the following year-old thread here: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=768 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=768)
So I figured it would only be appropriate for us all to return the favor by having him join us himself in the fun to help launch this new effort of yours.:)
2) I suspect Roman may well be one of the greatest 3D Modelers among us all, and given that I don't see his models posted anywhere here (but we have seen him model in Caligari videos) I also suspect he may welcome an opportunity to take part in some public modeling fun here himself!:)
I just think it would be fun if he joined you all in this, that's all. |
Post by jayr // Aug 3, 2007, 10:10pm
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Good idea 3dvisuals dude, if you're watching roman feel free to enter!
You've just been nominated 'dungeon master' for this comptetion 3Dvisuals Dude (overseeing but not competing) ;) Any chance you could post some advice for beginners in this field?
'Immersive Environments Competition' is as good a name as any, nice suggestion. I agree that it should be open to all truespace users so how about having a list of people who'd be willing to download scenes done in earlier versions of truespace to reformat them to the newer .rsscn format? |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 12:06am
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Good idea 3dvisuals dude, if you're watching roman feel free to enter!
You've just been nominated 'dungeon master' for this comptetion 3Dvisuals Dude (overseeing but not competing) ;) Any chance you could post some advice for beginners in this field?
'Immersive Environments Competition' is as good a name as any, nice suggestion. I agree that it should be open to all truespace users so how about having a list of people who'd be willing to download scenes done in earlier versions of truespace to reformat them to the newer .rsscn format?
"Dungeon Master?" I don't know about that one... probably a more accurate title would be "He who knows very little but tries to help very much.":o
Advice, sure I can toss some in, but it would be much better coming from Caligari directly so I think I'll give them some time to get around to stepping in here first. The truth is I'm almost as "in the dark" about the technical aspects of this stuff as everybody else here, but hopefully Emmanuel (who created Caligari's existing truePlaces) or one of Caligari's Tech Support guys will jump in as you start this to offer a helping hand.
I can tell you this though... keep your total (including textures) scene size at 5Meg or under per scene and avoid deeply nested hierarchies. In fact, whenever possible avoid nesting altogether. Use Booleans rather than Glue or leave the objects separate. Also keep your texture sizes as small as possible without sacrificing absolutely needed detail. Looking good is great, looking great is s...l...o...w online.;)
There also remains the very important question as to whether Caligari will allow the results of these competitions to be placed online and if so for how long, so I think you should secure a response on that before those entering get their hopes set too high or too low as the case may be. Even if the answer on that is less than you would hope this all still has enormous potential for the development of CD-based immersive and interactive environments, and soon Caligari will be rolling out rentable private shared spaces which could be utilized for these in some fashion as well.
As for folks willing to convert earlier TS scenes to Rsscn files I'll volunteer to be one of them. Hopefully others will volunteer as well. The major time-consumer there will be texture conversion I suspect, and that may end up being a multi-volunteer team effort in itself.
There could be several people who will need this kind of conversion work, I'm hoping for instance that "theuns" will take part in this (the guy who made that cool Cliff Hanger Colony here a while ago in this thread: http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2742 ) since he said in that thread he uses TS5.1 but his work would clearly be cool to explore with truePlay.
I'm looking forward to you guys getting this up and running, it will really be a great thing for all of us to learn from together.:)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by jayr // Aug 4, 2007, 1:13am
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jayr
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Originally Posted by 3dvisuals dude
There also remains the very important question as to whether Caligari will allow the results of these competitions to be placed online and if so for how long, so I think you should secure a response on that before those entering get their hopes set too high or too low as the case may be.
To be honest i never thought of this as anything but informal, maybe entrants posting their scene and some screengrabs so people can downlaod it and have a look, but then that would limit it to people with 7+ :(
If anyone from caligari could comment on this it'd be a big help at this point.
Originally Posted by 3dvisuals dude
I can tell you this though... keep your total (including textures) scene size at 5Meg or under per scene and avoid deeply nested hierarchies.
Could this be our first restriction? Keep entries to 5mb and under sound good, makes it more of a challange.
Originally Posted by 3dvisuals dude
As for folks willing to convert earlier TS scenes to Rsscn files I'll volunteer to be one of them. Hopefully others will volunteer as well. The major time-consumer there will be texture conversion I suspect, and that may end up being a multi-volunteer team effort in itself.
I'd be volunteering for that too, seems only right as i suggested it. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 6:25am
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Could this be our first restriction? Keep entries to 5mb and under sound good, makes it more of a challange.
Actually you could go as high as 6 meg but you'd need a pretty elaborate scene to actually hit that figure, either that or fairly large textures. Keeping it to 5 meg is a good target to shoot for though.
That HUGE project I made a while back here called "The Loft" weighed in at a total of 5.4 Meg, but it was a highly elaborate scene with multiple levels and a very large gallery, larger than any currently in truePlaces.
Most scenes wouldn't require such a large filesize, but textures can get ya!;)
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 4, 2007, 6:42am
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Texture size restrictions would severly limit me... most of the stuff I am doing is all textures. It might be a good reason for me to experiment and bring them down though.
Rich |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 7:33am
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3dvisuals dude
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Texture size restrictions would severly limit me... most of the stuff I am doing is all textures. It might be a good reason for me to experiment and bring them down though.
Rich
Actually if the overall scene filesize including models and textures doesn't exceed a max of 6 Meg combined you should be fine online with it, but if you are planning to produce a CD-based scene for a single traveler using truePlay the total combined filesize can be huge since it's a local file.
Oh by the way, I don't know if you grabbed it yet but trueBlue just pointed out that Caligari posted the link to the new truePlay Version 1.3 on the main Caligari truePlaces page. It works perfectly with TS7.51 Rsscn files now!!!!
Be sure to do an uninstall of truePlay 1.21 before you install it though, I already made that mistake and it won't work at all if you install it without first uninstalling truePlay 1.21.
Awesome development for all of us indeed!:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 4, 2007, 9:34am
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Actually if the overall scene filesize including models and textures doesn't exceed a max of 6 Meg combined you should be fine online with it, but if you are planning to produce a CD-based scene for a single traveler using truePlay the total combined filesize can be huge since it's a local file.
Oh by the way, I don't know if you grabbed it yet but trueBlue just pointed out that Caligari posted the link to the new truePlay Version 1.3 on the main Caligari truePlaces page. It works perfectly with TS7.51 Rsscn files now!!!!
Be sure to do an uninstall of truePlay 1.21 before you install it though, I already made that mistake and it won't work at all if you install it without first uninstalling truePlay 1.21.
Awesome development for all of us indeed!:D
- 3dvisuals dude
I have not played with TP in a while, my textures can bog down most 3D applications, I use very large textures, I have many that go far beyond 6megs... I really need to get my stuff converted into TP...
Rich |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 4, 2007, 12:42pm
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LOL! If Roman's reading this thread he must be chortling and rubbing his hands with glee! This is exactly the sort of excitement that he was forecasting back when so many folk were grumbling about having to learn the LE!
I can't help wondering if my idea of building a scene for Jack's MMC has triggered this whole thing - if so I've woken a giant I think!
5 or 6 megs is certainly a good file size restriction given that we'll presumably all have to download all the other scenes entered to be able to judge a winner!
Something else to consider: when entering an ordinary image contest featuring pictures of your latest models and textures the only thing that can be 'taken' by other folk is the resultant image. If we're posting entire 5 meg RsScns then anyone with tS 7.x will be able to access your models and textures - copyright issues are something to consider in this case. Is there any way to make an RsScn file "read only' in order to protect our work from unscrupulous types?
Regarding the MMC. So far there are three different WIP threads from those of us inspired by Jacks MMC challenge - one is an image, one is a RsScn and one is an animation. It makes me wonder if we should have a 'Forum' challenge that offers a theme - such as 'Space' - that has categories for Best tP scene, Best still image, Best animation, Best modelling, Best Texture's and Best imagination or whatever.
Just throwing out some thoughts really....
Re Roman entering the contest - nah, he should stay focused on improving his already amazing software. We shouldn't be distracting him from his most important mission...:D |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 4:10pm
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I have not played with TP in a while, my textures can bog down most 3D applications, I use very large textures, I have many that go far beyond 6megs... I really need to get my stuff converted into TP...
Rich
I just discovered a feature in this new truePlay 1.3 which I hadn't seen before (but I may have missed it before, not sure?) which allows the truePlay user to modify the texture resolution percentage for display purposes (render quality - vs - speed) directly within truePlay via a dropdown menu with multiple options!!! That's great!
With that, rather than start reducing all your scene textures outside of truePlay, you can actually do so while within truePlay to get a realtime impression of just what effect different texture resolutions will have on display quality while you are actually inside the scene yourself!
Of course this still won't tell you how much a large texture might slow down a given scene online, although it will let you determine in realtime just how much detail can reasonably be shaved of your textures without a significant loss of quality to your scenes.
Whatever lights and gravity were present when the scene was saved are also present when it is loaded within truePlay.
I seem to recall reading somewhere a while back that we should encapsulate (glue) our lights together before uploading scenes to a Caligari server and that they should also be placed where Avatars will not be likely to collide with them inside a given scene. Further, it was suggested that they also be scaled as small as possible for the same reason.
I'm so completely delighted to finally be able to send my Rsscn files to others via CD and e-mail or to link them from websites for others to explore via truePlay that I feel like a kid at Christmas!:D
This, is a promise fulfilled on the part of Caligari, and a very wonderful one.
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 4, 2007, 4:55pm
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LOL! If Roman's reading this thread he must be chortling and rubbing his hands with glee! This is exactly the sort of excitement that he was forecasting back when so many folk were grumbling about having to learn the LE!
:) He's no doubt wanted us all to wake up to the genuinely exciting potentials he already sees in the LE and in truePlay, and between the various issues of upgrading the Workspace this day has been a very long time coming for him indeed. We are waking up now as a whole though, you're quite right in sensing it, so do I.
I'm fairly certain he must be very relieved that the truePlay Rsscn issue is now resolved so he can move on to the bigger things he has in store for us all with trueServe/truePlaces and TS7.6... I have no doubt he will astonish every one of us with what he's about to roll out soon on that.:D
I can't help wondering if my idea of building a scene for Jack's MMC has triggered this whole thing - if so I've woken a giant I think!
Your personal involvement in taking this plunge into "The Dark Realms" of immersive scenes and the dreaded "LE" has certainly had an impact on others here, perhaps some were thinking quietly to themselves, "Well if W!ZARD hasn't gone that direction yet I still have time..."!!! I don't doubt that!;)
But I think a whole series of events really led to it, although it definitely was in your MMC WIP thread that Frootee popped the idea of having a new immersive spaces competition, and apparently that was an idea "whos time has come." I'm delighted to see this day dawning here, the beneficial effects of it will be far reaching for all of us and longlasting indeed.
5 or 6 megs is certainly a good file size restriction given that we'll presumably all have to download all the other scenes entered to be able to judge a winner!
Good point. Being one of the volunteers who may end up doing a lot of related texture format conversion for non-TS7.xx entrants, smaller overall scene size may cut down on some of that work for me as well!:o
Something else to consider: when entering an ordinary image contest featuring pictures of your latest models and textures the only thing that can be 'taken' by other folk is the resultant image. If we're posting entire 5 meg RsScns then anyone with tS 7.x will be able to access your models and textures - copyright issues are something to consider in this case. Is there any way to make an RsScn file "read only' in order to protect our work from unscrupulous types?
An extremely good point, and one which I never considered before as well. I'll kick back on that one and hopefully someone from The Big C will shed some light on that for us all.
Re Roman entering the contest - nah, he should stay focused on improving his already amazing software. We shouldn't be distracting him from his most important mission...:D
You're probably right of course, but I still can't help thinking it would be tons of fun if Roman wanted to join you guys in kicking this off in a big way. I imagine he's one of the busiest men alive though, so it probably isn't the most practical suggestion anyway, but it could be fun for him perhaps.
Anyway...
TruePlay 1.3 is out now and working GREAT, so that will enable all you guys to share immersive scenes with one another for truePlay usage and more importantly to share them with non TS users via CD's, e-mail, and weblinks.
I just burned 5 CD's already.... I have to go buy another stack now.:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by Nez // Aug 6, 2007, 6:10am
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Actually you could go as high as 6 meg but you'd need a pretty elaborate scene to actually hit that figure, either that or fairly large textures. Keeping it to 5 meg is a good target to shoot for though.
Most scenes wouldn't require such a large filesize, but textures can get ya!;)
- 3dvisuals dude
Chuckle - an old scene of mine hit 70MB, but I was a bit short-sighted in my modelling and could have reduced it drammatically if I'd planned my work better. I was in a rush - but the irony is that my computer would have run faster with a more compact file....
And I more recently did a 20MB model that had no textures (just plain phong shaders etc) - all in the geometry....
So I'm not sure I'd be an ideal candidate for building 'immersive' scenes! I'm also on TS5.1 and I guess I'd feel a bit guilty lumbering someone else the job of making it 'compatible'. But being able to navigate through one of your own models does sound like a lot of fun - when Caligari talked about the game level exporter plug-in produced a few years back, I thought it would be cool to be able to turn a model into a level for Quake or similar -has anyone tried that out? |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 6, 2007, 7:18pm
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Never fear Nez - the good folk at the Big C have already thought of you - tS 7.5 comes complete with handy tools to take those most models/textures and reduce them to as much as 10% of their original file size with only very minor loss in detail and quality.
The polygon reduction/normal map tools are (I suspect) designed exactly to allow for bigger models to be reduced to be more friendly for tP and internet use.
Additionally, I suspect that if one was setting out to build an immersive 3d scene one would design ones models and textures accordingly and strive for lighter files, textures and so forth. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 6, 2007, 11:45pm
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Chuckle - an old scene of mine hit 70MB, but I was a bit short-sighted in my modelling and could have reduced it drammatically if I'd planned my work better. I was in a rush - but the irony is that my computer would have run faster with a more compact file....
And I more recently did a 20MB model that had no textures (just plain phong shaders etc) - all in the geometry....
So I'm not sure I'd be an ideal candidate for building 'immersive' scenes! I'm also on TS5.1 and I guess I'd feel a bit guilty lumbering someone else the job of making it 'compatible'. But being able to navigate through one of your own models does sound like a lot of fun - when Caligari talked about the game level exporter plug-in produced a few years back, I thought it would be cool to be able to turn a model into a level for Quake or similar -has anyone tried that out?
No problem Nez, I really want to see this initiative take off here and become a sustainable success for the sake of the entire community here. If you enter and can keep your filesize within the limits they set for the competition I will do your texture conversion gladly, don't let that thought hold you back.
There are enormous possibilities commercially for those who cut their teeth on this technology now, while the time remains ripe, so if you feel the inclination to join others here in the effort by all means then, go for it!:D
- 3dvisuals dude |
Post by theuns // Aug 7, 2007, 11:17am
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This sounds like a great idea guys... gives me some motivation to complete my Cliff Hanger colony I started a while ago...
Will go and get trueplay 1.3 [ don't know which version I have now ] and see how it works... |
Post by jayr // Aug 7, 2007, 11:57am
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Anyone have any ideas about how to address the copyright issues? Is there any way to 'lock' scenes? |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Aug 7, 2007, 6:16pm
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3dvisuals dude
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This sounds like a great idea guys... gives me some motivation to complete my Cliff Hanger colony I started a while ago...
Will go and get trueplay 1.3 [ don't know which version I have now ] and see how it works...
Great!
Given how rapidly you developed that "Cliff Hanger Colony" project (I was watching your progress on that from the start) I have no doubt you could quickly develop a similarly interesting entry for an immersive spaces competition.
As for truePlay 1.3, the newest version, it works perfectly. I have no idea if it will load a scene created outside of trueSpace7.xx however, I never tried that. The scenes output from trueSpace 7.0 through 7.51 are all compatable with this type of "immersive spaces" concept and all work with truePlay 1.3 seamlessly in that regard, earlier TS version scene output may not work in that regard at all without first being converted here for you by volunteers such as myself within a related competition setting.
Apparently this proposed immersive spaces competition will now be open to those who don't have trueSpace 7.xx yet, which in my mind is a very good thing for all of us and is likely to push you over the edge on any upgrade decision accordingly.
The idea is have fun, share, learn along with the rest of us in this, and when you're done modeling we'll convert it to something you can explore in truePlay 1.3 or eventually place online yourself for others to do so with the rollout of the private (rented) multi-user shared spaces Roman has indicated recently will be available to us all soon.
This capacity to create fully interactive and deeply immersive realtime multi-user environments propelled me into upgrading to TS7.51, and I suspect when others see what it can similarly do for their own scenes they too will be propelled into the upgrade, and very glad afterward.:D
Welcome aboard Theuns, glad you're interested in this.:)
- 3dvisuals dude |
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