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A decade in the making..
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A decade in the making.. // Roundtable
Post by SiW // Sep 7, 2007, 10:21pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I've been a part of the tS community for a loooong time now. I've developed a lot of plugins, and you guys have given me fantastic support. Now I have something new to release, and it's something I've waited almost 11 years for. No joke, I started developing this before trueSpace 3 came out.
I'm not fully ready to put all the information out (and it's almost 3am) but I'm just too excited to wait so here's some tidbits and some test renders.
- It's a rendering interface
- It runs in tS5.x, tS6.x, OR tS7.x (Model only for now)
- It's as integrated as it can be - renders within tS windows just like Lightworks
- There will be two versions, the regular edition and a Pro version
- The regular edition will focus on "click and go" usability
- Cheap enough for anybody to get film-quality rendering features
(Just to be clear - while some of you know I've worked for Caligari in the past, this is 100% independent)
Alright, now a few pics. Bear in mind I'm no artist (I give you the tools, you produce the brilliance!) but you should be able to see a few features.
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/matteskull_15s.jpg
Plain and boring, but hey it works!
Let's make it a bit evil with some blood red bump-mapped material and some moody spotlighting:
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/bumpskull_15s.jpg
But why stick with old-fashioned bump-mapping when you can use real micropoly displacement mapping:
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/dispskull_17s.jpg
Hardly a dent in the render time either. The renderer(s) that this interfaces with typically excel at this stuff.
These skulls remind me of the old Arthur C. Clarke's Mysterious World with the glass skull!
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/glassskull_56s.jpg
That's pretty boring workhorse stuff though, what about the sexy things?
Sub-surface scattering?
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/sssskull_134s.jpg
Image-based lighting / HDRI?
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/hdriskull_117s.jpg
True depth of field?
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/dofroom_64s.jpg
Global illumination?
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/cornell_90s.jpg
What I most like though is that unlike many other renderers, you're not locked into slow raytracing for every effect, you can still get high quality with nary a ray traced:
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tease/plasticnotraceskull_16s.jpg
This is going to be very much an ongoing effort, with regular updates. Dare I mention things like fur? Custom shaders? Baked effects?
I'm super excited by this project, and I hope you'll all share that excitement when the product is released very shortly. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 7, 2007, 11:38pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Sounds interesting Simon. New render engines are always cool.
Looking forward to hearing your announcement :D |
Post by Matski007 // Sep 7, 2007, 11:49pm
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Matski007
Total Posts: 539
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BRAVO! this looks awesome! gimme gimme gimme! when will it be ready? and do you have any typical render times for these images? |
Post by splinters // Sep 8, 2007, 2:04am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Excited hardly covers it for me Simon...this looks fantastic. I am experimenting with my cloud project at the moment and collating stuff for a publisher (as well as my real job) but if you need a guineau pig for this...I am your man...:D |
Post by nub // Sep 8, 2007, 3:14am
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nub
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Great News SiW!
I'm looking forward to hearing (seeing) more about it. |
Post by Emmanuel // Sep 8, 2007, 3:17am
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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Simon, this is REALLY exciting. I start to understand why you never respond at MSN ;)
Seriousely ,this is exactly what I've always dreamed of : a VRay-like and Bridge free renderer !
I can't really enjoy VRay for trueSpace because of the Bridge issues and I can't use Workspace because it offers -for now- only a fraction of what I need.
Your product IS the answer.
Who said tS6/Modeler were dead ?
Thank you Simon :jumpy: |
Post by splinters // Sep 8, 2007, 3:59am
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splinters
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Any idea on those two prices yet Simon? Maybe you could offer a pre-release price to those willing to accept it as a Beta and use it for both promo stuff and testing purposes wit a full copy when it goes gold. That way you get some money while you are still developing it.
Either way, I am very interested in this. I have Vray and do enjoy aspects of it but it is no secret that I am a Model side guy and I would like to lose the bridge in bigger projects. Like Emmanuel, this sounds like something I could really use.
Fur, SSS, displacement mapping...sounds excellent....but how long to wait???
I just hope a direct competitor to Vray will not upset Caligari too much... |
Post by splinters // Sep 8, 2007, 4:09am
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splinters
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I just have to add to this thread how exciting this news is..up there with tS7 for me. It has been a little quiet around the forums since 7.5 release and this has now got me really excited for more news. Not only does the feature set sound good but you actually post images too so we can see how we might use them.
My only concern is the UI...I found Virtualight a little unintuitive and felt it a bit of a 'bolt-on' to the tS UI but it was, after all, originally a seperate plug-in.
And on that note, if you need UI elements that are sympathetic to tS then I am happy to lend my services. I have all icon and most UI material at hand so I can make you any stuff you need and it should all fit nicely into the UI.
I won't be offended if you decline..but the offer is there...:D |
Post by SiW // Sep 8, 2007, 8:58am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Wow, thanks for the great response already. I'll reward you with the name of the plugin: dribble. Yeah, another of my quirky names that does actually tie in with its functionality ;)
Let me just quickly address a few points:
It will be released in days, not weeks. I'd like to say hours, but eh, being up til 3am posting teasers kinda wiped me out :D The pro version will come later, as I really want development to be user-directed. It doesn't matter how many beta testers you use, you never really know what your customers truly need until it's in their hands.
I've yet to make a final decision on price, but you can look at how virtuaout came out as a good example I think.
do you have any typical render times for these images?
I can't really give the render times for the images as posted because I resized them (reduced in size) before posting, but the ones without raytracing took 15-20 seconds. The longest render was the SSS skull, which clocked at around 2 minutes. This was on my dual-core 1.83ghz CPU.
My only concern is the UI...I found Virtualight a little unintuitive
Entirely understandable. I look at the "virtuaout material" panel and I cry a little. In the regular version, dribble has only a handful of parameters, it takes everything else from the tS UI, so enabling DOF, setting raytracing parameters etc. all use the existing tS functionality. The "pro" version will make additional features available and that will necessitate more parameters in the UI, it's a tradeoff. Actually, it takes me a lot longer to simplify the options, I can just throw a bunch of numbers on a big dialog panel for you experts - maybe the pro one should be the cheaper? :P
I have done some soul-searching about taking away V-Ray business, but to be honest, dribble is just an alternative. At least for the near future, V-Ray will be the only option for 7.5 users who wish to work exclusively in Workspace, for example. dribble brings film quality rendering to the masses instead.
As far as icons go, I'm actually using the tS rendering icons - that's never been a problem in the past, but if Roman wants me to use different icons I know who to turn to :D
Alright, I need some rest now before gearing up for the home stretch, so back later!
Oh, and Emmanuel - I haven't been ignoring you on purpose :P |
Post by splinters // Sep 8, 2007, 9:03am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Wow, days eh? Well if it offers what you say and the price is right then sign me up....:D
Just a few points though. If it uses the existing UI, how do you access SSS and fur without Vray? Ignore me if that is a daft question but I am extremely curious about this now... |
Post by Leif // Sep 8, 2007, 9:25am
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Leif
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Nice render engine.
what about the sexy things?
Yes what about doing it with skulls? Some does that, but not me!
Im happy rendering pictures, but calling them sexy is a bit far out for me.
Glorious wishes to you and your plugin's future! |
Post by parva // Sep 8, 2007, 9:45am
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parva
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Can't imagine how much works that is Simon, so my fullest respect for that :)
Sounds all nice.
I guess it will be mainly an animation render engine right?
Or have you any ways to combine physical based algoritms, path tracing, metropo lighting etc. with the traditional raytracers?
The one who could combine both would become very popular :D
Nevermind looking forward.
P.s: the IBL/hdr looks a bit grainy. Comes this from low sampling? And does the light comes from an additional light source or the hdr image directly from someking of the importance sampling? |
Post by RAYMAN // Sep 8, 2007, 10:05am
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Or have you any ways to combine physical based algoritms, path tracing, metropo lighting etc. with the traditional raytracers?
The one who could combine both would become very popular :D
.
Yes I have the same question...PLUS ..... can we assign light emitting objects?
(lightwork can do that and some other software like Kerkythea use it as a default )I would love to make my own lightboxes etc.
Love to hear some more news !
Peter |
Post by noko // Sep 8, 2007, 10:07am
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noko
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This is very excitting! :jumpy:
Fantansic SiW! |
Post by Norm // Sep 8, 2007, 10:59am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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Great news Simon :)
I bet you enjoyed rendering them teasers as much as we enjoy seeing them :D
Looking forward to more news and renders! |
Post by KeithC // Sep 8, 2007, 11:26am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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Wow, looks great! :) |
Post by transient // Sep 8, 2007, 4:14pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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This looks great. Micro-displacement is an awesome feature.:)
I'm curious about how caustics look in this engine, and whether it will support absorption. |
Post by jamesmc // Sep 8, 2007, 5:33pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Looking forward to the release. If anyone can screw it up, I'm your man. :) |
Post by splinters // Sep 8, 2007, 11:34pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Simon, is there a site we can visit for more information and release, proce etc. or just to register interest?
And how do we order the eventual product?
Still very excited...always looking for new way of rendering my stuff...:D |
Post by Emmanuel // Sep 8, 2007, 11:42pm
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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Simon, is there a site we can visit for more information and release, proce etc. or just to register interest?
And how do we order the eventual product?
Still very excited...always looking for new way of rendering my stuff...:D
Aha, Paul. I think that -just like me- you didn't slept last night... or perhaps your dreams were haunted with skulls ;)
The days until Dribble release will become a torture to some of us. |
Post by splinters // Sep 9, 2007, 1:11am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Indeed Emmanuel, I have been very excited about this since the first news and I have been quite vocal about it. I find new shaders often inspire a project. Sometimes a new feature opens up many possibilities. Vray with it's fur and SSS did that but it has it's limitations too.
I hope 'Dribble' will do the same for me but I still live in hope for cloth and fluid animation that doesn't need a Phd...:o |
Post by jayr // Sep 9, 2007, 2:47am
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jayr
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WOW, this is amazing news! can't wait to see it in acton. Thanks for spending your time making a new tool for us all to spend our money on. :)
It looks like a great program so far, i like the part about film quality effects. |
Post by SiW // Sep 9, 2007, 12:23pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Hey all, just another quick update to address points that have come up.
Just to clarify, what I'm about to release is not a renderer itself, it is an interface to a renderer. Actually, Pro users will be able to interface to multiple renderers, because essentially, dribble is a Renderman interface. As such, whether dribble supports a particular feature (like fur*, or caustics, or whatever) depends on what renderer is used. I do want to reiterate the fact that the regular version has been made to be as easy to use as Lightworks - don't let the "Renderman" name scare you away :)
* Oh, I want to make sure that nobody is expecting fur right away; it's definitely coming but it not in the first build.
I'm pleased to see you champing at the bit Paul, but I still need to finish off a couple of things before I get even a quickie site up :) Although maybe if I did that first I wouldn't have to keep addressing points as they come up :D |
Post by splinters // Sep 9, 2007, 1:22pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Mmmmm.....:cool:
I am puzzled Simon, if dribble is limited by the render engine we have...exactly what does it add to those existing features?
Is it essentially a plug-in rather than a renderer? I realise it is difficult to write a whole new render engine but how are you able to get more out of, say, LW than Caligari already has...I mean fur, SSS, displacment mapping??
Still interested but now very curious as to what exactly the product is. Exactly how does it do true SSS without Vray?
If I read that right it would suggest that fur is not possible with LW as it does not actually support it...
Intrigued to know more but I understand you are busy readying this now...:o |
Post by RAYMAN // Sep 9, 2007, 1:49pm
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RAYMAN
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Hey all, just another quick update to address points that have come up.
Just to clarify, what I'm about to release is not a renderer itself, it is an interface to a renderer. Actually, Pro users will be able to interface to multiple renderers, because essentially, dribble is a Renderman interface. :D
Do you want to say that it is kind of an alternative .rib exporter?
Or am I getting it totaly wrong ?What about the shaders?
Sorry for asking so many questions !;) :D
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 9, 2007, 3:10pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Actually an integrated RIB exporter for TS is a big deal that would open TS up to quite a few production quality renderers.
Here's a quick sampling of render engines that could be interfaced:
Gelato (free 32bit single thread, $1500 64bit multi thread)
http://www.nvidia.com/page/gz_home.html
(I think this is Entropy bought out by nVidia and renamed and now hardware accelerated...)
Aqsis (Free)
http://www.aqsis.org/xoops/modules/news/
Renderman ($3500)
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/pricelists/index.htm
Air ($450)
http://www.sitexgraphics.com/
3dlight (Free for 1st licence, $1000 for additional licenses)
http://www.3delight.com/en/
Pixie (Free)
http://www.george-graphics.co.uk/pixiewiki/Main_Page
Simon, which one are you using to produce your sample images? |
Post by transient // Sep 9, 2007, 3:30pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Wow, this is much more ambitious than I thought. Thanks for the reply SIW, this looks very exciting.
An interface for 3delight would make me very happy.:)
Also thanks for the links Jack, I didn't know about Pixie or air. Between this, V-ray and the Kerkythea plug-in, trueSpace is going to get a huge boost in it's reputation as go-to program for quality rendering. |
Post by SiW // Sep 9, 2007, 5:33pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Yeah, Jack's on the ball here. When I talk about renderer capabilities, I'm not talking about Lightworks or V-Ray (or VirtuaLight).
3Delight is my baseline renderer that dribble is built around. For the forseeable future, if you're using the non-Pro version of dribble, you'll be rendering with 3Delight.
I'm hesitant to refer to dribble as "a RIB exporter", because that conjures up images of working with multiple programs and editing text files and a high level of complexity. The Pro version of dribble will make that all available if you want it, but I promise you that the regular version will be "render and go", no intermediate .rib files in sight.
As far as the other renderers go, I'll gradually add support for them based on user feedback. A gradual approach is best because while Renderman is a standard, each renderer has its own little foibles. At one point I had built-in support for prman, AIR, 3Delight, and Aqsis, and it was a nightmare to build :D |
Post by Emmanuel // Sep 9, 2007, 10:19pm
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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Lightworks has my preference over VRay and VirtuaLight because :
1. I can render a complex architecture scene with thousands of objects and hundred materials at a 8 000*6 000 pixels resolution (or even a 16 000 * 12 000 with Johny's plugin) in a very reasonable time. And if I load a plain grey bitmap as HDRI picture, I can get a soft GI effect with no harm to render speed.
This is impossible with VRay : a 2 000 * 1 500 average picture with GI takes at least 30 minutes ; and up to 6 hours for a 6 000 * 4 000.
2. Lightworks handles layered materials.
3. VRay requires tS to send the scene to the WS first. That Bridge synchronization takes time on complex scenes.
It also leads to some errors if the Bridge "forgets" to convert one thing : sometimes an object is present on the render (=present in workspace) and not present in Modeler. Or an object is rendered in a red color (=red in workspace) but painted blue in Modeler. etc...
4. I never really used VirtuaLight.
I don't know why.
Perhaps, my first tests were not really conclusive. Or maybe, I found its interface too far from what I was used to. The artist choices are sometimes irrationnals, you know...
I would say that VirtuaOut interface was severe, with many unintuitive boxes, with no SAVE button to backup settings for a given camera or a given case (just like VRay, BTW). Its design also was not completely integrated into tS7 design (black title bar instead of the standard blue one ; enboss frame design, not present in tS panels...). Perhaps a few self-explanatory icons in VirtuaOut panels would have help (just like VRay, BTW), or some yellow tips over the options... All small things, but that makes the difference.
I don't say VRay or VirtuaLight are bad render engines. I just say that :
- they have their own use
- they are not well enough integrated into trueSpace.
Of course, if I stay with Lightworks, I miss a "real" GI with color bleeding ; I also miss the caustic effects, whith are both the must have features in todays renderings.
At term, this means that if I want these features, I will have to move to an other application...
So your annoucement, Simon, is a ray of light.
I just visited 3Dlight website and it seems to be a very good renderer choice. I can't wait to start a true evaluation of it.
I hope these considerations will help you Simon to build the long awaited, fast, complete, transparent and well-integrated alternative to Lightworks trueSpace -the old core- deserves :) |
Post by Burnart // Sep 9, 2007, 11:08pm
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Total Posts: 839
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Haven't looked in for a day or 2 and all this is happening sounds great!
The market you will get are those of us who simply find VRay too big a afinancial ask on top of the update to 7.5. I'm just starting to look at all the new animation possibilities in the workspace and I'm feeling extremely frustrated that the software almost requires me to buy VRay. Dribble sounds like a godsend! I join the ranks of "can't wait"! :jumpy: |
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