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DRIBBLE first impressions
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DRIBBLE first impressions // Roundtable
Post by RAYMAN // Oct 9, 2007, 11:13am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Thank you for the reply !
Peter |
Post by SiW // Oct 9, 2007, 11:40am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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The update has been released (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=49976#post49976) :) |
Post by Liger ZERO // Oct 9, 2007, 11:44am
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Liger ZERO
Total Posts: 124
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w00t! Thanks. |
Post by jayr // Oct 9, 2007, 11:47am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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cool, thanks SiW |
Post by SiW // Oct 9, 2007, 12:00pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Oliver, you should have received the email. If you didn't please check your spam filter. I can tell the system to send out the email again, but the download link is generated automatically so I can't just tell you it.
Re: render passes, I do plan on working on it, yes.
Hi Simon,
please give me the link:o I've payed it!!!
I'm very curious about to test it with Motion Studio.
Do you plan to work on render passes?
Regards Oliver |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 12:43pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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One thing to bear in mind is that dribble 1.01 does not overwrite Dribble 1.0, well not on my system anyway.
When I load up tS7 the plug in is already there but is v1.0, If I go to load a new plug in and navigate to dribble folder there are three .tsx versions; 1.0, 1.01 for tS5 and 1.01 for ts 6 and 7.
Just in case anyone else did not notice...:rolleyes: |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 12:47pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Is it just me or is 1.01 noticably slower than 1.0...??
I load up a sample scene with a simple sphere and HDRI (I posted it earlier)
Dribble 1.0 takes 3 seconds to render
Dribble 1.01 takes 33 seconds...big difference. |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 12:54pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Another weird thing is that any displacement is making the object very obviously larger or smaller depending on amplitude size. Look at the image and you can see the rendered image is much bigger than the wireframe...:o
Before this just raised the surface texture, now it is swelling the object and negative amp is shrinking it. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 9, 2007, 1:03pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Another weird thing is that any displacement is making the object very obviously larger or smaller depending on amplitude size. Look at the image and you can see the rendered image is much bigger than the wireframe...:o
Before this just raised the surface texture, now it is swelling the object and negative amp is shrinking it.
SiW indicated the other day we would need to tweak down our displacement settings in the new version. It will probably take a bit of playing to get a new pespective on it. I noticed in my experiments with the earlier release that the overall size appeared to grow. I think black remains at the surface current height whereas white expands the "pseudo-mesh" outwards based on the polygon normals direction. Perhaps Simon could give us an idea of what is going on here to help us understand how best to use it. |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 1:05pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I need to get some sleep now but experiments tonight with dribble were not much fun; long render times and several crashes (but this is probably Vista).
I really hope I am missing some simple setting or tweak, I appreciate all and any extra features but if render times will be ten times longer then it is not much of an improvement for me.
Not dismissing your hard work Simon but really not good for me tonight and I am sure you would rather honest feedback than a slap on the back...:o |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 1:07pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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SiW indicated the other day we would need to tweak down our displacement settings in the new version. It will probably take a bit of playing to get a new pespective on it. I noticed in my experiments with the earlier release that the overall size appeared to grow. I think black remains at the surface current height whereas white expands the "pseudo-mesh" outwards based on the polygon normals direction. Perhaps Simon could give us an idea of what is going on here to help us understand how best to use it.
I read that Burnart and before had the amp at around 5.0 for a really rough surface. With 1.01 I went to amp of 1 and size was noticable. Only way to get same size was to have no displacement. As you can see from the grab I posted it really is much bigger.
How are you finding it for speed of render?
Maybe we need to reboot after install or something....:o
Quality of render is pretty good though, I must say, and displacement (size aside) is worth the asking price alone. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 9, 2007, 1:10pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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How are you finding it for speed of render?
Maybe we need to reboot after install or something....:o
Haven't got the new version yet - I'm looking at the forum at work over my morning cup of coffee as usual :p |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 1:12pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Excellent, in that case call up a scene and render with dribble 1.0 before installing 1.01. Make a note of the render time then run the exact same scene with 1.01. Remember to load up the new dribble as tS7 still opens 1.0.
Would be interested to see if you have a big hit on render time too. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 9, 2007, 1:17pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Excellent, in that case call up a scene and render with dribble 1.0 before installing 1.01. Make a note of the render time then run the exact same scene with 1.01. Remember to load up the new dribble as tS7 still opens 1.0.
Would be interested to see if you have a big hit on render time too.
Will give it a go when I download after tea tonight at home if my memory is not overcome by my enthusiasm - too much caffeine. (Coffee in the morning, tea in the evening, cola in the middle of the day - methodical caffeine addiction :D ) |
Post by SiW // Oct 9, 2007, 5:59pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I am sure you would rather honest feedback than a slap on the back
Exactly - I need that honest feedback.
Re: displacement size, perhaps I should take it back to what it was before when using true displacement, leave it as it is now for bump mapping? I like having the bigger range for some things, but if it's making it hard to do "realler" materials then that's the wrong direction.
Likewise, if there is a real slowdown in 1.01, that's something else that is the wrong direction. However, I think a likely explanation is that it wasn't actually rendering GI in 1.0 with that kind of render difference.
I want to hear about any crashes that happen after pressing the dribble render buttons. Other crashes are likely not dribble's fault - although I can see a possible crash if you have multiple versions of dribble installed *and active* at the same time. |
Post by jamesmc // Oct 9, 2007, 7:28pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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My bug report is it still doesn't run.
Now I get a delay, black screen and nothing.
Re-installed both, restarted.
Using command line prompt to install software is so 1980s.
Guess I wasted my money. |
Post by SiW // Oct 9, 2007, 7:50pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Is the 3Delight license server running, James? |
Post by jamesmc // Oct 9, 2007, 8:28pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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When I try to run the server it says I get "can't find license.dat"
Even though the license.dat is in the 3Delight directory |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 9:11pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Exactly - I need that honest feedback.
I want to hear about any crashes that happen after pressing the dribble render buttons. Other crashes are likely not dribble's fault - although I can see a possible crash if you have multiple versions of dribble installed *and active* at the same time.
Crash does happen after hiting the render button Simon but I have had tS go weird in Vista quite a lot, if there is a long pause before something happens the screen fades out and the program error comes up asking if you want to wait or close, there is a long pause before dribble starts rendering...damn vista.
As for GI, only if you enabled it by default. I just opened the existing scene where GI was not one and hit render.
As for displacement, tough one this as we will not be able to fake fur if you scale it down but also simple indentations and 'bumps' will make geometry seem incorrect.
EDIT: Just checked that scene and GI was not enabled. Turning it on put the render into many minutes (I stopped it before it even finished)...on a dual core AMD X2 6000 with 2gb RAM! |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 9:13pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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When I try to run the server it says I get "can't find license.dat"
Even though the license.dat is in the 3Delight directory
I have had no problems at all with the license.dat James. Just check that you put it in the root 3delight directory not in a folder. Failing that are you sure you registered with the right Hostid? If you did not use the first in the list that came up (usually any built in ethernet card) then it might not be validating your license.
Can't see any other reason why it would not work, and trust me, when you get it running, displacment mapping is worth the price alone...:D |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 9:27pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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SIW, I just loaded a scene on my laptop that was a test for SSS and it ran at exactly the same speed with 1.01, the slower scene had HDRI lighting but was still very fast in dribble 1.0. Using the translucent plastic for an SSS effect seems to be slowing it down too. Will investigate more...:) |
Post by Emmanuel // Oct 9, 2007, 9:48pm
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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I haven't test the speed yet but I am glad GI now works :banana:
GI even looks pretty good.
It is not V-Ray quality yet, but it sounds we are in the right direction, [applause] :)
Planes seems problematic though. With default settings, here is what I get : |
Post by SiW // Oct 9, 2007, 11:05pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I'd better get to bed in a minute, I'm an idiot for being up so late (Orange Box!) but quickly..
Oooh yeah the planes, I forgot to mention that change. You all know that the standard tS plane was actually two planes facing outwards, and that's such a pain! dribble 1.0 rendered everything single-sided, but 1.01 now respects your tS settings, and tS defaults to double-sided rendering (again, a pain). The renderer can't handle two faces in the same space and gives those black, so your options are:
- enable single-sided rendering (best option for many reasons)
- use a true single poly plane object instead (I dunno when it was added to tS, but right-clicking the Create Plane button in 7.5 has a single-sided option, I also included a single-sided plane in coolpowers3)
- use a NURBS plane
- sweep the plane by a minute amount
splinters: I'd appreciate reports (with test scenes if possible) any repeatable crashes with dribble renders. I haven't had one since switching image libraries, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
As far as the HDRI goes, the shader itself hasn't really changed between 1.0 and 1.01 but I'll see if there are any other differences (other than the orientation change). It is possible that the single-sided issue mentioned above is also relevant here, check and see if it's enabled or not.
james: he's right, as long as license.dat is in your main 3Delight directory there should be no problems running the license server from the start menu. Do you have anything "unusual" about your 3Delight install, or are you using the default c:\3delight\ ? |
Post by oroe // Oct 10, 2007, 2:55am
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oroe
Total Posts: 21
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Hi Simon,
thanks for the fast feedback!
After 15 min. of testing i mus say WEEEEEHHAAAAA!!!
dribble work perfect with MostionStudio!!!and tS6 (For all they works with this combination - do not forgot to turn bonevisibility off in MoS if you render the scene).
I have some questions:
The new "occlusion" checkbox what exactly is it - Object- or Ambient-Occlusion?
For render output is ist possible to implement 25 Frames per sec. two? (very important for me here in germany :) )
For the Material Editor do you plan to modify the Material too?
is it correct that the Alliasing currently not work more than with "Adaptive"?
Thanks for this cool plugin!
Oliver |
Post by splinters // Oct 10, 2007, 4:21am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I am still having trouble getting a satisfactory SSS effect. I can get a 'milky' sort of surface texture but not the effect of light shining through thinner sections.
Interesting effect though if I ramp up the light to nearly full intensity (as in full, way beyond the slider allows)... |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 5:41am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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The new "occlusion" checkbox what exactly is it - Object- or Ambient-Occlusion?
It adds in the effect of ambient occlusion to the irradiance calculations. You'd get the same result if you added a sky light to the scene, but doing it this way is more efficient.
For render output is ist possible to implement 25 Frames per sec. two? (very important for me here in germany :) )
This is for AVIs, yes? I mean, does it make any difference what the frame rate is for sequential image output? I must confess to ignorance on the subject.
For the Material Editor do you plan to modify the Material too?
Not sure what you mean.. I'm going to be working on some custom materials for dribble, and I was planning on doing some experiments with a material editor that didn't use the tS one.
is it correct that the Alliasing currently not work more than with "Adaptive"?
No, 1x 2x 3x 4x should work too. You won't actually notice as big a decrease in rendering time as with Lightworks or V-Ray though, which is nice. |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 6:27am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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This is for AVIs, yes? I mean, does it make any difference what the frame rate is for sequential image output? I must confess to ignorance on the subject.
Simon, don't quote me for sure, but I think tS interpolates the keyed animation frames to fit the frame rate of the output AVI. I probably can't explain this well. But it's like tS assumes 30fps, but if you render to a different frame rate tS stretches or compresses the tweening so that ANIMATION TIME = FRAMES REQUIRED PER SECOND. i.e. at the normal 30 fps (or 29.97 whatever) tS renders 30 frames of animation. If you need 25 fps tS interpolates the 30 frames into 25 frames to cover the same replay time of 1 second or 30 frames in the KFE.
Man, I hope that makes sense. If not, just shoot me and save a lot of people the agony :)
Opie
edit: But is that something that Dribble should deal with or a tS issue? I dunno |
Post by oroe // Oct 10, 2007, 6:30am
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oroe
Total Posts: 21
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Not sure what you mean.. I'm going to be working on some custom materials for dribble, and I was planning on doing some experiments with a material editor that didn't use the tS one.
sorry my english :) - I mean how i can get SSS with tS6? i have to use the tS translucent Shader for example?
No, 1x 2x 3x 4x should work too. You won't actually notice as big a decrease in rendering time as with Lightworks or V-Ray though, which is nice.
WHAT? - I realy have not noticed any slower rendering times! WHOW!
Thanks for your fast feedback
Oliver |
Post by oroe // Oct 10, 2007, 6:35am
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oroe
Total Posts: 21
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Simon, don't quote me for sure, but I think tS interpolates the keyed animation frames to fit the frame rate of the output AVI. I probably can't explain this well. But it's like tS assumes 30fps, but if you render to a different frame rate tS stretches or compresses the tweening so that ANIMATION TIME = FRAMES REQUIRED PER SECOND. i.e. at the normal 30 fps (or 29.97 whatever) tS renders 30 frames of animation. If you need 25 fps tS interpolates the 30 frames into 25 frames to cover the same replay time of 1 second or 30 frames in the KFE.
Man, I hope that makes sense. If not, just shoot me and save a lot of people the agony :)
Opie
edit: But is that something that Dribble should deal with or a tS issue? I dunno
hmm also my bad english :(
Here in german television we use PAL (25 Frames per Second) if i render out 30Pictures per second (NTSC) in tS i have no chance to make a "clean" reduction to 25 Pics per second. I had this big problem - the result is a "flickering" Effect.
Hope you know what i mean???
Oliver |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 6:43am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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hmm also my bad english :(
Here in german television we use PAL (25 Frames per Second) if i render out 30Pictures per second (NTSC) in tS i have no chance to make a "clean" reduction to 25 Pics per second. I had this big problem - the result is a "flickering" Effect.
Hope you know what i mean???
Oliver
Oliver,
I know exactly what you mean. All a post render editing package can do with a video to convert 30fps to 25fps is drop 5 frames per second. That makes a noticeable jumpiness to the animation. Even if the animation is rendered to a series of stills the sequence has 30 frames per 1 second of animation. Bring that into an editor having told the editor to import the stills at 25fps and it either still drops out 5 frames or now your animation is slowed by 6% in playback. It's a problem for sure.
Opie
p.s. make that 'slowed by 6% per frame' .. the error is comulative over the length of the animation |
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