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DRIBBLE first impressions
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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DRIBBLE first impressions // Roundtable
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 7:05am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Oliver - yeah, "translucent plastic" is the only way to get SSS right now. I think I'll make a quick update though just to add a custom shader for it.
On the frame rate issue.. I do know the reasoning behind needing it, my question is really whether or not I have to code anything special. I mean, as far as I can tell, if you set the animation rate (in trueSpace, right-click the playback button) to 25 and you output to sequential images, you'll get a 25fps sequence. The only problem is if you render to AVI you're stuck with 30 or 15 right now because that value is written to the AVI.
Hmm, wait wait.. Let's say you have a 1 second animation, and you animated with a base rate of 30fps. To render the animation at 30fps, the instructions would be something like:
Set current frame to first frame
Render
loop this:
..Increase current frame by 1
..Render
But for 25fps, it'd be:
Set current frame to first frame
Render
loop this:
..Increase current frame by 1.2
..Render
I got 1.2 by dividing 30 by 25. Does that sound right? |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 7:08am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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Hmm, wait wait.. Let's say you have a 1 second animation, and you animated with a base rate of 30fps. To render the animation at 30fps, the instructions would be something like:
Set current frame to first frame
Render
loop this:
..Increase current frame by 1
..Render
But for 25fps, it'd be:
Set current frame to first frame
Render
loop this:
..Increase current frame by 1.2
..Render
I got 1.2 by dividing 30 by 25. Does that sound right?
By Jov I think you are on to something here! I sounds right to me
Opie |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 7:12am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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also keep in mind that if this sort of frame adjustment could be set somehow by the animator with an input value rather just the choice of 2 frame rates, some really cool special effects could easily be created....Matrix type super slo-mo, Speedy Gonzales lightening fast etc...combined with motion blur and WOOHOO!
Opie |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 7:14am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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But my 1.2 loop means that rendering at 25fps would leave me with 25 images, not 30. It would still equal 1 second of animation though, wouldn't it?
Is that right? I know tS/Lightworks doesn't work like that, I just tested it. |
Post by Liger ZERO // Oct 10, 2007, 7:20am
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Liger ZERO
Total Posts: 124
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SiW, I've been reading up on SSS and Translucency and I saw that some packages use a translucency maps. Would you be able to incorporate this feature in the SSS shader? I don't know much about this stuff but it looks like a cool feature. |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 7:22am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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If the tS frame server thingy does work as I'm thinking it does, then it will interpolate the original 30 frames into 25 smoothly animated frames based on your precentage value of 1.2
I have to admit to you that I just realized a native way to solve the problem if rendering to a series of still images. Scale the animation in the KFE. i.e. I have 5 seconds of animation which equals 150 frames. If I scale the main animation animation time line to 125 then render to stills I get the right tweening, etc. But doesn't that prove that the frames sent to render has the ability to be scaled like we are talking about?
Opie |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 7:24am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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But my 1.2 loop means that rendering at 25fps would leave me with 25 images, not 30. It would still equal 1 second of animation though, wouldn't it?
Is that right? I know tS/Lightworks doesn't work like that, I just tested it.
Yes. It would leave you with 1 second of animation done in 25 frames. So when it is played back at 25fps the timing is right on.
Opie
edit: It doesn't work? awwww...bummer. thanks for trying sir
re-edit: You didn't say 3Delight doesn't work that way...is there still hope? |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 8:26am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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No, it doesn't work like that in tS - it will render out 30 frames. It *should* work in dribble. I'm still trying to work out if that's the right behaviour though :)
I looked at other apps, and in max for example it appears there's no concept of output frame rate, it just seems to automatically do what you describe opie, stretching out/reducing the entire scene animation time if you choose NTSC or PAL, e.g. a 30 frame animation created in NTSC will then become a 25 frame animation if you hit the PAL button. |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 8:27am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Would you be able to incorporate this feature in the SSS shader?
This just came up on the 3Delight forum; no, it's not possible right now but will be in the future. |
Post by Liger ZERO // Oct 10, 2007, 8:56am
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Liger ZERO
Total Posts: 124
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I did some more tests with displacement maps. The key to getting good displacement without making you model bigger is to keep the mid value black. Zbrush by default sets the mid value to gray, this makes the model expand. You can see the difference in the pix. The way I fixed my maps was by taking it into Paint Shop Pro and changing the curves so that anything up to gray(50%) was black. |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 9:19am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Oh, good point about the mid-level.
Who votes that I treat gray as mid-level for displacement mapping automatically? (My vote is yes) |
Post by Liger ZERO // Oct 10, 2007, 10:10am
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Liger ZERO
Total Posts: 124
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Maybe it should be gray. I was thinking about this if my map has any indents they would be lost because the mid level is black, same as the indents. So with a mid value of gray we would not only have positive but negative displacement. I hope I explained myself well enough.:)
My vote is yes. |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 10:30am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Alright, that's two of us, everyone else is outvoted :P
This is planned for 1.02 as a quick release:
- SSS custom shader
- Displacement mapping will go from -1 to 1 (another way of saying mid-level is gray) |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 10, 2007, 10:45am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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I just put in 1.01, and soon as i rendered I was getting weird artifacts on planes. Here is a plane with the default ts material setting and the default dribble settings. |
Post by SiW // Oct 10, 2007, 10:54am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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Re: the planes:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=50013&postcount=173
:) |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 10, 2007, 11:09am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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ah gracias sir, missed that one. |
Post by splinters // Oct 10, 2007, 12:01pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Good to hear that 1.02 will address SSS. It is something even Vray does not do quite right...;) |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 10, 2007, 12:08pm
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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No, it doesn't work like that in tS - it will render out 30 frames. It *should* work in dribble. I'm still trying to work out if that's the right behaviour though :)
I looked at other apps, and in max for example it appears there's no concept of output frame rate, it just seems to automatically do what you describe opie, stretching out/reducing the entire scene animation time if you choose NTSC or PAL, e.g. a 30 frame animation created in NTSC will then become a 25 frame animation if you hit the PAL button.
thank you for looking into it Mr Simon
Opie |
Post by Burnart // Oct 10, 2007, 1:18pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Oh, good point about the mid-level.
Who votes that I treat gray as mid-level for displacement mapping automatically? (My vote is yes)
Grey would allow for positive and negative displacement. I say yes to grey. |
Post by jamesmc // Oct 10, 2007, 9:44pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I spotted an interesting thing.
I was playing around in Daz Studio and guess what renderer I spotted in there?
Yep, 3D Delight.
Is this why I can't use the Dribble Plug-in because 3D Delight is already loaded with Daz Studio and comes under a difference license? |
Post by MadMouse // Oct 10, 2007, 9:58pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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I was playing around in Daz Studio and guess what renderer I spotted in there?
Yep, 3D Delight.
Is this why I can't use the Dribble Plug-in because 3D Delight is already loaded with Daz Studio and comes under a difference license?
I don't think so James. I have Daz studio installed as well as dribble and 3Delight and it all seems to work fine together.:confused: |
Post by RAYMAN // Oct 11, 2007, 4:17am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I don't think so James. I have Daz studio installed as well as dribble and 3Delight and it all seems to work fine together.:confused:
Me too ! i got both 3 delight and Daz and have no problem.
I just have to run the server and it gives output without watermarks
.... If I dont run server and doubleclick a rib it also runs and gives me
3 delight watermarks.
Peter |
Post by jamesmc // Oct 11, 2007, 5:16am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Well, I guess I'm just stupid then, cause Dribble never ran properly for me.
To think I used to program in PASCAL too.
Oh well, wouldn't be the first program I bought that gets thrown down the rat hole. (opens up recycle bin) |
Post by splinters // Oct 11, 2007, 6:12am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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james, no need to write it off so soon. Did you check your host id?
Run CMD and type in ipconfig /all
When you get a list of devices check that it is the first listed ethernet device that you used to register 3delight.
failing that I have no idea what is causing you grief but it is worth persevering with. I have heard of no other reports of dribble not working.
It really is great fun so give it a chance mate...:D |
Post by prodigy // Oct 11, 2007, 6:20am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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I belive someone must create a "step by step" tutorial (instalation and how to use) for dribble to help to solve in this kind of cases and problems, maybe the tutorium can be a great place for this.. |
Post by manxie // Oct 11, 2007, 6:36am
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manxie
Total Posts: 76
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Great idea prodigy, as I am sure there is a few of us out there having problems :confused:me included |
Post by SiW // Oct 11, 2007, 7:27am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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james - I'm sure your frustration with it is as high as mine :| Everything so far is pointing to dribble working properly but 3Delight isn't, and seeing as dribble relies on 3Delight..
Any technical details you can give to try and pinpoint the problem? Like OS, where you have 3Delight installed, where you have trueSpace installed, etc. The fact that it said it couldn't find your license.dat perhaps indicates you could have multiple 3Delights installed, perhaps remnants from a previous installation? If you right-click the "3Delight license server (background)" entry in your Start menu and go to Properties, you should see something like this:
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tmp/properties.jpg
Make sure those paths are correct and that you have placed your license.dat in that "Start in" directory.
You might also want to check the environment variables:
http://truespace.coolpowers.com/tmp/environment.jpg
Incidentally, it does appear that until a new version of 3Delight is released, rendering without having the license server running will give you a black screen, not a watermarked render. This has nothing to do with dribble. |
Post by RAYMAN // Oct 11, 2007, 12:39pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Incidentally, it does appear that until a new version of 3Delight is released, rendering without having the license server running will give you a black screen, not a watermarked render. This has nothing to do with dribble.Not with my installation !
When you render the samples that come with 3delight without license server running it gives you watermarked renders !
Dont know why it is different to yours .... ?
Peter |
Post by Steinie // Oct 11, 2007, 12:56pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I hate to admit it but I once forgot to start the license server and it rendered black on mine. I've never seen the watermarks yet. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 11, 2007, 1:01pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I hate to admit it but I once forgot to start the license server and it rendered black on mine. I've never seen the watermarks yet.
I use to always get the watermark but now I get a black render. Funny thing is that started happening before I installed the new version of dribble! |
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