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DRIBBLE first impressions
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DRIBBLE first impressions // Roundtable
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 4:16am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Wow that's way cool Madmouse! Looks like we already have fur. ;) |
Post by Steinie // Oct 1, 2007, 5:00am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Boing, (Is that the sound of eyes popping out?...):)
Steve, If you get a chance please show us how you did that. |
Post by Nez // Oct 1, 2007, 5:15am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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Ha! I figured YOU would be asking that!
Nice job MM, certainly interested in how you did this. I can't see dribble being in my immediate future as I don't think I'll be allowed to add it to my work pc and my home machine can't handle 3delight (I'm only on Win98) but as it should support TS5 I'm interested in its development.... |
Post by CdeB // Oct 1, 2007, 5:20am
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CdeB
Total Posts: 160
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Well..well,
After the promotion of fur and hair with tS7.5 I had yet to see a realistic demonstration that fur could be made. (Haír seems to be moving in the right direction -although still needs some optimisation and dynamics).
All this has changed with MadMouses render....but now I am thinking is the limitation really down to the render engine? And of course if he reveals how it was done it would be a big plus! |
Post by splinters // Oct 1, 2007, 5:31am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Well, at the risk of sounding obvious, I guess he simply applied a 'fur' bumpmap with a high bump depth and then used dribble which would have physically displaced the surface by that amount.
If this is wrong then I would like to know too...:D |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 6:41am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I did some tests and VRay gets fine color bleed and light bounce with ambient set to zero on all the materials:
http://www.motbc.com/ForumStuff/dribble/VRay_GI_test.jpg
(GI Envirionment is set to black)
Lightworks:
http://www.motbc.com/ForumStuff/dribble/LW_radiosity_test2.jpg
(Radiosity, material ambient at zero)
Dribble:
http://www.motbc.com/ForumStuff/dribble/GI_test2.jpg
(Material ambient = 0.1 for sphere and plane, checked always ray shadows, area samples = 80, GI is enabled at intensity 2 and 64 samples)
The problem I notice is that having to use ambient to get the GI effect washes out the shadows and adds light in the corners where the ball meets the floor, which is the opposite of VRay where the shadows are deepened in creased/corner areas...
Can we get GI without having to use ambient values for it to show? Is this a limitation of 3Delight itself? |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 6:42am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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:confused: I always set my ambient values to 0 unless I have a material that is emitting light... is that a Renderman limitation?
Honestly Jack, I'm not 100% clear on this either. It doesn't make sense - the shading call is called indirectdiffuse after all!
However, it could just be down to semantics. Traditionally the ambient value has represented simulated indirect illumination, so in that context I suppose it makes sense that this value would control how much indirect light a surface receives in a renderer that does actually calculate indirect lighting. The situation was complicated when tS switched to calling this setting "luminance", which sounds like it controls how much light is emitted (and does in fact control this in renderers like V-Ray).
I wonder if I should disable the ambient light when GI is turned on? That's what I'm leaning to - it's like two different methods of showing indirect lighting (one real and one fake), competing against each other.
Now, what I'm really confused about is you not getting GI in dribble unless you have a radiosity calculation. That absolutely should not be the case. I can't remember the last time I even touched the Radiosity button. |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 6:49am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I was messing around with displacement in dribble and ended up with this furry leopard doughnut!
:banana: That's unexpectedly fantastic. How long did it take to render? I should say that this is classed as "extreme displacement" and is usually not recommended because of its tendency to break up, but if you can get away with it, great! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 7:01am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Disabling ambient when GI is on would help I think. There may be something going on with the shadowing coming after the bounce calculation though, take a look at this render with Irradiance on:
http://www.motbc.com/ForumStuff/dribble/GI_test3.jpg |
Post by MadMouse // Oct 1, 2007, 7:10am
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MadMouse
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Boing, (Is that the sound of eyes popping out?...)
Steve, If you get a chance please show us how you did that.
Sorry to say this but spheres and torus's are about the limit for this technique because as SiW said setting the displacement to maximum will blow most meshes apart :(
But if anyone wants to try, all you have to do is use a bump map (about 1000 x 1000) which is pure black and then speckled with pure white pixels. Use it as a bump map with the Amp set at 10. Easy really. Just a shame you cant do more with it: :( |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 7:19am
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SiW
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I should point out that one thing your tests show is V-Ray's strength; fast, smooth GI. 'Course, it ain't cheap :D
3Delight is going to get an update that should improve its global illumination features, with a multi-pass method that I believe is similar to how V-Ray operates. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 7:29am
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Jack Edwards
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Good point Simon. :D
I think where Dribble/3Delight will outshine TS's VRay implementation is with Caustics. Also there's fog, which VRay for TS doesn't support yet at all.
Guess that's another test render I need to try. ;)
BTW, once I got the area light rendering as an area light, the render quality for 3Delight was much improved and I was able to get softer shadows. BTW, is there any automatic way to get softer shadows other than using the area light?
-Jack. |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 1, 2007, 7:57am
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3dfrog
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Just a couple of things that would be good in a future update. A render rectangle area tool so you can just render a small area. Right now when you want to see an area you have to render the whole thing and wait for it to get there. Also, maybe a help button that brings up the list of what the features do.
Thanks. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 9:08am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL, hey look no TS VRay transmission/shadow bug! :p
8735
:D |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 9:27am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I think where Dribble/3Delight will outshine TS's VRay implementation is with Caustics.
I'm not sure I'd agree there. I haven't done a lot of (personal) caustics rendering with V-Ray, but from what I've seen it's just like their GI implementation - quick and predictable, whereas I've had a hard time getting sharp reflected caustic effects from Renderman.
BTW, is there any automatic way to get softer shadows other than using the area light?
That wouldn't be so hard to add I don't think.
btw, working on getting the UV info properly mapped for subdivs. |
Post by prodigy // Oct 1, 2007, 9:35am
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prodigy
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LOL, hey look no TS VRay transmission/shadow bug! :p
BOOO!!!!!!! :mad:
Don't count money in front poor people Jack!!!! :p |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 9:53am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL Prodigy! :D
Here's a just for fun image:
8737
That's great news about UVs for SubD :jumpy: |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 11:29am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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That's great news about UVs for SubD :jumpy:
Yeah, seems to be working fine, and will be in this week's update. I've decided to hold off on the Simbiont support so that I can release 1.01 quickly. 1.01 will focus on tying up some loose ends. I think we'll shoot for a Wednesday release. |
Post by Liger ZERO // Oct 1, 2007, 6:59pm
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Liger ZERO
Total Posts: 124
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I just wanted to say I love Dribble. For the first time I'm able to use my displacement maps from Zbrush with trueSpace. I can now have a 1,000 poly model and use my 1 Million+ poly displacement map.
trueSpace + Dribble + Zbrush3 = :banana:
:) |
Post by SiW // Oct 1, 2007, 8:16pm
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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trueSpace + Dribble + Zbrush3 = :banana:
Let's see some examples then :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 1, 2007, 11:49pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Simon, can we get a more intuitive way to implement GI?
I mean if luminance is needed for the effect, can we have a global GI value that will apply the needed parameter automatically to all the objects in the scene? And maybe ambient/luminance can be disabled except for models that do have ambient/luminance set (light casting objects).
This would make it easier for people to produce GI images and it would *hopefully* solve the issue that ambient causes in the final image. Also can you check into the GI not taking into account ambient occlusion... does that need to be a separate pass?
It would be useful to be able to have the ability to set a background light like in VRay without having to use HDRI which adds speckling. I guess this would sort of be a shadow casting ambient light? :confused: Is that possible with Renderman? Is skylight supported? Would that cause the same effect?
-Jack. |
Post by RAYMAN // Oct 2, 2007, 8:17am
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RAYMAN
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Yeah, seems to be working fine, and will be in this week's update. I've decided to hold off on the Simbiont support so that I can release 1.01 quickly. 1.01 will focus on tying up some loose ends. I think we'll shoot for a Wednesday release.
I very much hope you dont hold off on Simbiont support completly as
this and support for self illuminating objects would be a main reason for me
to get Dribble.Please a short comment on this please .
Peter |
Post by SiW // Oct 2, 2007, 10:12am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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I very much hope you dont hold off on Simbiont support completly
Oh no, not at all. I just want to get the update out quickly as it's largely an "issue addressing" (alright, a couple of plain bugs in there too) release. Simbiont support shouldn't be too hard, it'll just take a little time to make sure it works as expected.
I mean if luminance is needed for the effect
Not any more. For the record, I think your suggestion made sense though.
Also can you check into the GI not taking into account ambient occlusion... does that need to be a separate pass?
I know what you mean with the light bouncing up when it seems like it should be in shadow, but I've tried explicitly adding an occlusion check and it renders the same so I'm fairly confident that the exhibited behaviour is correct.
It would be useful to be able to have the ability to set a background light like in VRay without having to use HDRI
A sky light should work for this, though I've also been doing some experiments with invisible-to-the-camera-constant-shaded sky domes which might be faster.
Right now I'm trying to find out why the normal map shader is almost-but-not-quite correct. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 2, 2007, 10:49am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Wow you're really putting a lot of work into this Simon! Thanks! :banana:
After you get Simbiont up and running can we get multi pass either like in iPak or via toggles in the interface? :D |
Post by SiW // Oct 2, 2007, 11:26am
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SiW
Total Posts: 298
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can we get multi pass either like in iPak or via toggles in the interface? :D
Yes, actually. Most of my shaders are already set up for separate passes.
So yeah, it's planned. Can't give a timeframe though. |
Post by splinters // Oct 2, 2007, 11:38am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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That is great news Simon, I am really excited about the future of Dribble...:D |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 2, 2007, 12:01pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree with Splinters. It's getting cooler all the time :banana: |
Post by splinters // Oct 3, 2007, 4:34am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Having trouble getting a good SSS effect with dribble. I used the translucent plastic and set translucency to full (messed with other settings too) but I cannot get the effect of light showing through thin sections, despite having a very bright local light just behind the left of the object.
Second image shows same scene with Vray SSS which, while not perfect (and needs tweaking) has the required effect. Any ideas how to get similar with dribble? |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 3, 2007, 6:23am
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3dfrog
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Hey splinters. I had trouble getting the effect too. SIW said in my dribble thread that he will make a seperate sss shader for dribble for us. So I am waiting on that shader. |
Post by RAYMAN // Oct 3, 2007, 6:40am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Having trouble getting a good SSS effect with dribble. I used the translucent plastic and set translucency to full (messed with other settings too) but I cannot get the effect of light showing through thin sections, despite having a very bright local light just behind the left of the object.
Second image shows same scene with Vray SSS which, while not perfect (and needs tweaking) has the required effect. Any ideas how to get similar with dribble?
SiW !
May I join in on that same question and post a render (Metropolis light transport ) from Kerkythea with a SSS translucent Plexi shader I made.
I would like to make these kinds of lighting setups I´m used to make
in photography. This kind of setup does not give the same result if
one uses reflected light on a plane. There is a subtile difference.
I would love to be able to make lighttents too.The light here is just one
single light emitting small sphere behind the sheet.
Peter |
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