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Copyrighted Thread
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Copyrighted Thread // Roundtable
Post by MadMouse // Nov 3, 2007, 3:12am
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MadMouse
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In light of Splinters recent need to remove his 'little cloud' and other renders for fear of his work being misused, I thought of a possible solution.
I to will be entering into a project soon that if posted in the main forum could be open to copyright abuse, but I would still very much value the advice and input of certain members of this forum.
So here's the idea........
Would it be possible to have a password protected area of the forum that could only be accessed by trusted and long term members of the forum, maybe after first signing an NDA, vetted by Norm after consultation with existing members maybe? Would members that either do not yet have the skills to make commercial work or do not have the desire to do so but still have much to add in advice and constructive criticisms want to join up for such an area. Would other members be offended by being refused access to the area?
In such an area, members with access could post WIP's of commercial projects with the peace of mind that there work is much more secure from copyright theft, and receive the constructive crits that have made many of my personal projects a success.
Please don't think of this as an attempt be elitist or snobbish:o. I'm just trying to find a way for us to protect our work and still have the valued input of other forum members.
Just an idea that came to me and I'd thought I'd throw it out for discussion. I'm not even sure if this is practical of possible.:confused:
So what do you think?
Steve |
Post by Jack Edwards // Nov 3, 2007, 3:26am
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I think it's important and a good idea. Like I mentioned in Splinter's thread, if you're part of proTeam, private forums are one of the perks. It would be good to see more people using them also that meets your criteria of only serious users. Casual users aren't likely to spring for the money for a proTeam membership. |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 3, 2007, 3:30am
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I did consider that the proteam forums are a more secure option but should we need to pay for a proteam membership to secure our work? and then of course the only requirement for membership is the price of entry? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Nov 3, 2007, 3:44am
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Jack Edwards
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Scriptorium was a private section of the forum and invitation only for a while. Existing members handled the invitations and Norm the approvals. It probably wouldn't be hard to set up a Copyrighted Works forum section. |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 3, 2007, 3:47am
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MadMouse
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I glad your in favour of this Jack as you are one of the members that I had in mind when I was thinking of this. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Nov 3, 2007, 4:41am
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Jack Edwards
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Sure I don't have any problems with it. proTeam members probably should get automatic access though, since access to industry peers is one of the selling points for proTeam. ;)
I'd be nice to have a way for those of us active in the industry or who are concerned about their intellectual property rights to have a place to post about their current projects and for us to learn from and support each other. A private section could also be used for plug-in/script development and beta testing.
There needs to be a balance though in that you don't want it to take away from participation in the regular forum areas.
We need to get all interested members to sign up here though to see if there's enough interest and to save Norm some administrative work. |
Post by jamesmc // Nov 3, 2007, 4:52am
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hmmm, I was going to comment, but can't think of a nice way of saying it, so I won't. :D |
Post by stan // Nov 3, 2007, 5:33am
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stan
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sounds like a good idea to protect your work from prying eyes..
it was sad to see the scriptorium go public as it is anyone can download the tools I make and post in the garage which I find disturbing..not sure why is has to be that any Tom, Dick or warez user has access to those files.:( |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 3, 2007, 5:58am
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MadMouse
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proTeam members probably should get automatic access though Kinda defeats the point if you ask me. There are members of this forum that I know I can trust never to abuse copyright. But as the proteam just requires you to pay the money can the same be said for them? I dont want to insult the proteamers, never having been one I don't know who's over there different to this forum but I think that proves my point?
There needs to be a balance though in that you don't want it to take away from participation in the regular forum areas. Yes indeed, the last thing I want is for the forum to split in two, those with access, those without. I was thinking more just a secure place for 'show and tell' on commercial works.
hmmm, I was going to comment, but can't think of a nice way of saying it, so I won't. please try to find the words James. I want as many views as I can get, for or against
sounds like a good idea to protect your work from prying eyes.. Yep, I hadn't thought of plugins and tools but yes It would give you control over what you release to the general populus and what you protect. |
Post by prodigy // Nov 3, 2007, 6:07am
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The best way and the most simplest is submit watermarked images with low quality ;)
Simple. |
Post by jamesmc // Nov 3, 2007, 7:11am
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What I was going to write is get your own Website in which you have total control of what gets put on and what is shared.
There are plenty of free blogs, free video blogs "vlogs" where one can make the security as lax or as tight as they wish. There are even some free blogs that have built-in copy right statements depending on what you are displaying.
I understand why the Pro Team has their own forum and etc., they paid for it and it's an extra service because they paid for it.
For instance, suppose this new area gets approved. Who decides who gets to post what because of "quality" and that it might be worth stealing?
What if I decide to post my worthless 3D in there, because I'm worried someone might steal it? Will I get the "hrumph" from the so-called "pros" because it's not up to their standards and I'm making a mockery of the "hidden forum?"
So posting publicly on other forums with the chance of becoming an Ambassador for trueSpace gets downplayed as a risky proposition because if you are "good" enough to get recognized by another entity, then suddenly one comes back here to post and they are afraid to post their works because it might get stolen? Something contradictory about that thinking...
If one has hopes for a possible business proposition, then get your own Website or don't post on the Web at all.
I had a neighbor who had worked for Disney as a finish artist. He joked one time if Disney collected monies from all the images of "Mickey" and "Donald Duck" they would be the richest company on earth. But he said the philosophy of Disney, with the exception of merchandising, that all these copy cats was worth hundreds of million in free advertising.
Now I'm rambling...so I'll close. :) |
Post by splinters // Nov 3, 2007, 9:03am
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It is a good idea Madmouse but James makes a valid point about potential 'snobbism'. however, a copyrighted area is for you the user and for you to decide who goes there. Is that right?
In that case you only have yourself to blame if you invite someone in who's comments you subsequently do not like.
As for the watermarked idea Prodigy, it is good but it will not stop someone taking your ideas or concepts,, it is not always just your artwork you are protecting...:o
Proteam is also a good idea BUT I would definitely want the feedback from Wizard and Madnouse to name but a few...they are not Proteam.
A puzzle indeed.....:rolleyes: |
Post by Délé // Nov 3, 2007, 9:21am
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I haven't tried the blog thing yet but I believe that you can set those up as "invitation only". If people use those, everyone could have their own private area to post commercial work and only invite those that they trust. IMO that would be better then having one hidden thread that would exclude some of the community. I think it would be quite difficult to define standards as to who would get into such an area.
So I think using the blog would be the best route. Norm is a very smart, even minded guy, but I think in a situation like this, it's best to have each individual choose who they are ok with viewing their work. Blogs would allow this. |
Post by splinters // Nov 3, 2007, 9:23am
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Can you lock each individual blog, or is it just a setting for 'your blog' as it were?
Must look into this.... |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Nov 3, 2007, 9:51am
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I haven't tried the blog thing yet but I believe that you can set those up as "invitation only". If people use those, everyone could have their own private area to post commercial work and only invite those that they trust. IMO that would be better then having one hidden thread that would exclude some of the community. I think it would be quite difficult to define standards as to who would get into such an area.
So I think using the blog would be the best route. Norm is a very smart, even minded guy, but I think in a situation like this, it's best to have each individual choose who they are ok with viewing their work. Blogs would allow this.
Outstanding solution Délé!!!
I agree 100 percent with your assessment of all this.
Bravo!:)
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
Post by splinters // Nov 3, 2007, 9:54am
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I cannot see a way to lock one blog just to a buddy list...am I missing something?
I don't want to lock all my blogs off...:o
Equally it is a bit of a pain to make a buddy list...still, I have made a start. |
Post by Délé // Nov 3, 2007, 10:09am
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Yeah, it looks like you'd have to decide if you want to use your blog for regular blogging or for showing private work as you can only change privacy settings for the whole blog. It would be nice to adjust privacy on a per blog entry basis, however I still think it's the best solution. |
Post by jamesmc // Nov 3, 2007, 10:14am
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I'm unsure how Norm set up the Blogs here. I'm more familiar with my own Blogs.
You can make them subscription access only. Or in other words, unless you get invited or receive a request to be invited, one will not gain access to the blog.
Lot of organizations and individuals use this method.
One can always mix access on a blog as well. "Public areas and Private areas"
You can also track 'public areas" by IP address. This is handy if you have a poster who is someone you don't know and makes inappropriate comments. You can ban by IP.
There are also filters, those annoying little graphic letter things. This keeps spam bots from attacking your blog.
I'm sure Norm can do this here as he uses a subset of Word Press I believe, which is a very popular free Blog template.
One could always use the blogs here to notify others of an off site blog.
Let's say you make an image and that image needs evaluation. One could put the notification here, then the URL leading to one's private blog site.
On your private blog site you have control who doesn't or does get access to evaluate your image.
That way, you could use the blogs here as a funnel mechanism with instructions and policy of how to access your private blog.
Another layer of security, if you will.
Scroll down the page a bit and there are some tutorials how to set up a blog. (free ones)
http://www.freevlog.org/
There are several videos and they are demonstrated well enough to make even the novice blogger get a good start on blogging. |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 3, 2007, 11:27am
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This is an issue of concern to me too, as I am co-writer/creative director of an indie 1st person realtime 3D adventure game development project. (egad - what a mouthful!) Although we are not a company at this point, we do have some hopes of producing at least a modestly marketable game. I feel responsible for protecting this as much as I can, for the other participants, as well as myself.
For our own group of people with very mixed skills (ranging from composing and sound effects to programming, concept art, game story writing, puzzle design and 3D modeling) my partner and I do provide extensive (paid) site. However, most members of our group are not associated with trueSpace or even with 3D Modeling, and therefore do not give that specialized feedback.
I, and at least one other member of my group, do use trueSpace and would find the feedback on our modeling for this project very beneficial to us, and think it would also be interesting to trusted forum members. I would like to continue the orbicles modeling down to all the details, but fear I may have either to stop before getting too detailed, or to sacrifice this model as a learning experience, and then start again on a new design for our game which would not be seen on the forum..
While Pro Team sounds like a wonderful option, it is geared those whose are already commercially productive and can afford the specialized service - circumstances which often may not apply to individual artists like Splinters (and others), or members of indie development groups, like myself.
Therefore, I do think there's a place for another level of privacy, and no, I don't think it should 'divide' the forum or cause any of us not to participate in other areas of the forum. Most bulletin boards have the possibility to have Private and even 'hidden' Forums, in case the owners/admin would like to include them, and I don't think it has to be in the blogs area (although it certainly could be if it offers the needed options).
Since hidden forums are just that, members who are not a part of them will not even know that they are there.. (there are probably several for this bulletin board already, as staff members often have their own, for organizational and business purposes.
Well, as you can see.. I'm hoping that a good option to fulfill these needs can be arranged. I'd see it as a great enhancement to the forum. :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Nov 3, 2007, 11:37am
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I don't think there'd be any snobbery in a private forum section. This is a very humble community and it certainly hasn't been the case with proTeam. Pretty much everyone in proTeam posts and participates out here on the main forums instead anyway, which is why I was reminding our proTeam members that they do have the proTeam forums available as a resource should they choose to use it. ;)
A private forum section for non-proteamers would in my mind be like the Scriptorium was, a way for members to collaborate and ask for advice without having to make their alpha and beta versions available for public download. This is really important if we are to see professional plug-ins developed.
I don't think it should necessarily be restricted to "accomplished" users. But simply active members that want to participate. I could see that the private forum would also be useful for new users who would be too embarrassed to post in the public forum but want to have the help of their peers on a particular project.
There is also the simpler approach of just limiting the private forum to registered trueSpace users that own a paid for version of trueSpace. (i.e. not the demo. ;)) A lot of companies do that with their forums. Have the bug reporting, free downloads, and feature discussion sections restricted to paying customers. That would also encourage more users to register.
Just some thoughts.
Edit: @ Butterpaw:
Yup this forum has private areas. The Sciptorium used to be one. The ProTeam section is another. So I doubt it would be that much of a problem for Norm to set it up. It would just be a matter of figuring out exactly what it is that the community is looking for. ;) |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 4, 2007, 1:11am
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Hmmmmmm..... I hope I haven't upset anyone with this suggestion. I'm not trying to split the forum or to be snobbish, merely to protect sensitive works of myself and others.
The Blog idea is a good one Dele, and it looks like it might suit my needs as I don't use my blog for anything else. But as Splinters said I don't think its possible to protect individual entries.
However that did inspire another idea... What if a member had the option to restrict any thread that, that member starts in the open forum to be only viewed by members in that members buddy list?
It would only need to be a tick box that could be checked when starting a new thread 'do you want to restrict entry to this thread to members of your buddy list' sort of thing:confused:
This way the 'poster' has ultimate control over who views their sensitive work? On the whole (and I included myself in this) most of us would prefer any posted work to be viewed but everyone. But if your posting something more sensitive you can control the restrictions yourself.
I don't know is this is possible, that's for Norm to tell us. But it seems like a possible solution to me.
The only major down sides to this that I can see is the offence that could be caused if one member wanted to be included on another's buddy list but the 'owner' of the thread had reservations about the other member and denied entry. And that the posting member would need to add everyone that they are happy viewing the thread to their list.
Any thoughts guys? |
Post by Steinie // Nov 4, 2007, 2:42am
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Well of all the ideas the personal Blog area seems to be the best idea. I would hate to see restricted threads in a TS User's Forum. Of course if the Thread is invisible who knows?
Does this mean your own WebSites will also be stripped of content too?
Professional Work needs to be guarded for obvious reasons. I hope this doesn't mean Personal renderings are going to be a restricted "Club" too. Even if I was allowed to view them I wouldn't like it.
Here is a Blog link titled "Look at the Size of those Mellons" and in only 2 days they will only be allowed to be viewed by a select few (my "Club"), so get em while you can...
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/blog.php?b=82
P.S. MadMouse, My Avatar jumps around like yours but right now it is sleeping.... |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 4, 2007, 3:35am
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I would hate to see restricted threads in a TS User's Forum. Of course if the Thread is invisible who knows?
My point exactly.. except that usually it could be set up as a 'moderated forum', perhaps by user request? ... I'm mainly familiar with phpbb2 in which this is easily accomplished. A user can be made moderator of a forum (which to start out with, is visible only to the moderator and admin) the moderator can choose who is allowed to view and post to it - i.e. not restricted to a buddy list. So it's off the radar to everyone else, and feelings don't get hurt - since of course it would be just plain mean to announce that one is going to hide something .. "nanner nanner.. naaaanner .. " :p)
... well except in the case of melons of course - amazing and huge! :D ...and I also see you have a reinforcement of your nickname.. it would be cool to see those steins modeled ;). I have a plan to model my mother's teacup collection - now I have a tripod, I can set up my camera to take exactly the right reference photos.. oops - I've digressed!
However, here, it may be easier to accomplish a similar result with the blog, and I think I've figured out that if one keeps commenting under a particular heading (as well as your visitors commenting) that works out to be much like what we recognize as a thread... So then.. it would be a matter of the settings, I guess, to hide it. That does not seem to be possible to set on a "tread by thread" basis at the moment, at least, but perhaps that can be adjusted.
Does this mean your own WebSites will also be stripped of content too?
I really don't think so (and certainly hope not!) ... I have websites and blogsites strewn all over the internet (including a deviantArt site and shop)... all with completely accessible content .. and my gamedev site is the only one under wraps (and until now mostly not even known to exist).
@Steinie - aww mousie is so cute - I like critters ^_^ |
Post by spacekdet // Nov 4, 2007, 8:33am
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Being a big fan of the KISS Principle (Keep It Stupid, Simple), it
seems like emailing a link to the image, or the image itself, to whom you wanted feedback from would work.
My webspace provider allows me to set up password protected directories, perhaps yours does something similar. Store your copyrighted images there, share the password with whoever you wanted feedback from, shoot them an email, done. All out of sight and no bruised egos. |
Post by Nez // Nov 5, 2007, 12:09am
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Well I hope some sensible outcome is reached as I would hate to see folks like Splinters and MadMouse restricting what they share for commercial reasons - they (and many others) act as great 'flag-bearers' on the forum and help inspire and inform many others here.
But even for established artists such as these, I'd like to think there is still room for comments from (relative) newcomers to the forums like Butterpaw and myself (just as examples - as I know we've both been involved in discussions on such pieces).
And you'd have to ensure that there was some way of letting new members of the forum know that whatever option was adopted actually existed - after all, if there's all these hidden threads floating around that aren't visble to many, how would they know that such a thing might be possible unless it was clearly advertised...
Time for some thoughts/feedback from Norm? Might be worth inviting him over to the thread MadMouse to make sure he's aware of it and can offer some insight on the blogs/threads options? |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 5, 2007, 12:50am
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I would hate to see folks like Splinters and MadMouse restricting what they share for commercial reasons - they (and many others) act as great 'flag-bearers' on the forum and help inspire and inform many others here. Thank you Nez, I appreciate that.
Time for some thoughts/feedback from Norm? Might be worth inviting him over to the thread MadMouse to make sure he's aware of it and can offer some insight on the blogs/threads options?
Yep I think I'll IM the big guy and see what he has to say. |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 5, 2007, 12:55am
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Thanks MadMouse, and I didn't mention it, but I too think signing an NDA would be a good idea too. I use that method for my game dev site..
^_^ |
Post by splinters // Nov 5, 2007, 2:48am
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Kind words guys and this is why I never tried to limit access or feedback to my work in the past. I tried locking a blog to a buddy list but got fed up making it after the first 30 names...and it didn't work anyway:D
Would like to see what Norm thinks too....certainly a real issue for anyone producing work that might be published or developed commercially.
And I never even considered the potential 'idea theft' of posting my student's product design coursework...:( |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 5, 2007, 10:56pm
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MadMouse
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I've IM'd Norm, so just waiting on a reply now? |
Post by Norm // Nov 7, 2007, 6:10am
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Having hard time understanding any benefits here. Current copyright laws would suggest your image is copyrighted as soon as you have produced it, so having a forum thread or such dedicated to copyright is not going to validate or invalidate the copyright.
Administration would be a bear with such a forum as people change minds or such about who they want to see it. We discussed in a meeting this week and was decided to keep forums as they are and hope everyone is not worried about copyright. |
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