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A heartfelt plea to Caligari
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A heartfelt plea to Caligari // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 5:31am
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This has been on my mind for a while but I just bit my lip but as I watch yet another 2 hour render that is missing textures or elements I have to raise this point.
What is the future for model users (like me) who want to use Vray?
My current project is Vray based and I need the Bridge on for Vray but it is crashing, hanging, losing textures etc. to the point where I am pulling my hair out (if I had any). All this on a AMD X2 6000+ with 4gb of DDR2 6400.
Roman mentioned in his blog a tS that removes the bridge this year but how would I access model space and Vray that way? Is there any way of linking model to Vray without using the bridge?
Likewise, if workspace does become more useable for me how will LW be integrated?
I know there are going to be those who say "give it a try, it really is pretty good", I know it is as I tested it from an early stage but my client, paying by the hour, doesn't want to hear that there are no Nurbs or booleans (insert your own missing tools here).
This is not a rant, just a plea to Caligari to give me a chance to make good quality work (and I love Vray for that) without having to give up my working methods. I have been faithful to tS for over a decade but, as my scenes become more complex, I simply cannot use the bridge if I want a stable working system.
So, what does the future hold for a tS user like me if I want Vray and model side flexibilty?
Of course the answer I dream of is...all of the model side tools in workspace (and LW access) with an interface that lets me 'imagine' I am still in model side....perfect!! |
Post by rjeff // Jan 16, 2008, 6:04am
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Bravo Splinters..I agree with that. I like MS and I like WS. But I like how you put it. |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 7:21am
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Thanks Rjeff, they both have their merits and I know workspace is the future architecture, tS6.6 code is old side etc.etc. but, as I pointed out, when charging an hourly rate I do get a lot done in an hour. Anyone who knows my work from the forums probably knows how quick I work but these last few days I have not produced a single render for my client. Items made invisible are not made visible by the show all objects icon; you have to select them then make them invisible/visible manually. Two infinte lights miraculously appeared in a scene I had been test rendering for a few hours. Textures default to grey for no reason etc. etc.
I am trying a high quality render (1 of around 20) that needs to be at 3200x2400 with GI, soft shadows etc. The client wanted that particular look (like little cloud) and it can take up to 2 hours to render...each one is ruined, I get a crash after every few renders, tS locks up when I try to reopen, twice this week I had to delete the default.ctx. The list goes on.
This is not a moan; that is simply an account of the last few days work. I have to use Vray but I need to work in model side if I am to maintain speed (I cannot charge for learning) but the stability is just not good. And I want to keep my workflow while utilising Vray.
I am proud of my associations with Caligari and nowhere else have I questioned the validity of tS and Vray but as someone using this for a living in various guises I am a little more than curious as to how i will use it in the future.
This is not meant to be a pointless rant or in any way negative about Caligari. I am just need to know really. And I am in no position to move to another piece of software after spending so long 'mastering' what I do using tS, not to mention all my students are trained in it too...:o
I don't expect anyone to make radical changes just because I ask but surely when a Gold Ambassador and loyal user (official;)) say's "err guys, I really am sorry to say this but I am struggling to work with this on a day to day basis" I would hope it might stand for something...:(
P.S This is fust frustration (and loss of earnings) talking..... |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 16, 2008, 7:28am
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Perhaps send the file to someone you trust that has V-Ray and tS7.51 with the saved scene file so they can render it to test to see if their machine crashes as well.
I wish I had something that good which took 2 hours to render.
So far, the talent department has been closed and they are not answering their phone. :) |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 7:50am
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Even if that was practical James, this is NDA protected so I can't really. It is not so much a question of indefinable bugs or quirks just the strain of the bridge effectively doubling the system requirements (and Vista's own quirks, although I have had a lot of trouble with 7.51 on an XP laptop today!). Most of the other problems I mentioned have been reported before (some by me) they are just a result of rendering with Vray from model side via the bridge. I put new faster memory in yesterday and I am running a render now that seems ok but I have spent quite a few 'unpaid' hours trying to get this image.
EDIT: I got the render now so I feel a bit better but who knows what I will have to create next....
EDIT: A stiff drink and a re-read then I will probably delete this thread... |
Post by jayr // Jan 16, 2008, 8:25am
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I asked about lightworks moving in the workspace a while ago and got a reply that was of the 'we can't confirm or deny that lightworks will move into the workspace'
It would be a shame if it didn't though. Even if it seems a little lacking compared with other renderers it still produces stunning results if used right and has a lot of features VRay doesn't yet. |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 8:29am
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Yup, I love LW (I just like Vray too!) and it would be more than a shame if it was lost to the workspace.
Ideally we would have the power of workspace hiding under the disguise and workflow of model (should we wish to personally set the UI up that way) with integrated (and bridgeless) access to LW, Vray, Dribble and other renderers....
I can but dream. |
Post by i_maker // Jan 16, 2008, 8:39am
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Paul, I applaud you for having the courage to at last speak up your mind about something most of us have known all along: trueSpace in the commercial arena tends to buckle under pressure.
My modeling commissions are for high quality images, nothing smaller than 6000 by 4500 dpi. At this resolution, normal polygonal modeling will not make the cut, that’s why I use SDS. The problem with SDS – no, not a problem, but a logical consequence of using a specific tool - is you will inevitably end up with a high polygon count. trueSpace can handle high polygon count to a point: the trade-off is you cannot have fancy lighting set-up or too many reflective faces, for example, with a scene with any more than 1,200,000 faces.
A professional-grade modeling tool will cater for high resolution scenes as a matter of fact. Not as an exception. Professionals will not be happy with just 800x600 images: can you imagine how frustratingly unsatisfying it is to view a low res image on a high-res monitor? I just hope trueSpace 8 will be that professional tool: no more bridge, no more indecision about what render engines to include or exclude, just a solid platform for modeling, texturing, and rendering, no matter what the resolution. I just hope that the developers will not lose sight of these core capabilities, because, at the end of the day, what is the use of smashingly good render if your tool will struggle to reproduce it at a professional-level resolution?
No software package is perfect, and, it certainly wouldn't do Caligari any harm if it were to explore what its users, particularly of your calibre, found to be good or useful in other apps. Just looking forward to ts8, really....
It is time for Caligari to go back to its roots and turn the bus into the right direction again. |
Post by jayr // Jan 16, 2008, 9:48am
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Yup, I love LW (I just like Vray too!) and it would be more than a shame if it was lost to the workspace.
Ideally we would have the power of workspace hiding under the disguise and workflow of model (should we wish to personally set the UI up that way) with integrated (and bridgeless) access to LW, Vray, Dribble and other renderers....
I can but dream.
One of the things i've most enjoyed about 7.x is the ability to alter your UI. I use 4 layouts with different tools for different jobs, it keeps everything nice and clean. I can't see any way you souldn't be able to set up a 6.6 'simulator' when (if) all the tools are ported over. |
Post by Paul Boland // Jan 16, 2008, 10:32am
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If you are a new comer to TrueSpace, TrueSpace 7 being your first introduction to the software, working in Workspace mode may become second nature to you. But for those of us who have worked in the Model environment for so many years, Workspace is very foreign, it's almost like an entirely different 3D package, not TrueSpace. I work primarily in Model side but do switch over to WorkSpace when I need to get access to the new tools or do a VRay render. I have to admit that I'm still not 100% comfortable working and navigating in Workspace mode. Where I can whiz around in Model side, I do have to think before I act in Workspace. This is not a fault of Workspace, it's just a very different environment.
I don't expect Caligari to go back to the TrueSpace 6.6 architecture. They've put a lot into the new Workspace side and I do believe TrueSpace 8 will see the Model side disappear completely. But before that happens, I would like to see Workspace become more user friendly for us established users. As with Paul's post above, this is not an attack on Caligari or TrueSpace's future direction, just concerns from a long time user. |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 16, 2008, 10:40am
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If you are a new comer to TrueSpace, TrueSpace 7 being your first introduction to the software, working in Workspace mode may become second nature to you. But for those of us who have worked in the Model environment for so many years, Workspace is very foreign, it's almost like an entirely different 3D package, not TrueSpace. I work primarily in Model side but do switch over to WorkSpace when I need to get access to the new tools or do a VRay render. I have to admit that I'm still not 100% comfortable working and navigating in Workspace mode. Where I can whiz around in Model side, I do have to think before I act in Workspace. This is not a fault of Workspace, it's just a very different environment.
I don't expect Caligari to go back to the TrueSpace 6.6 architecture. They've put a lot into the new Workspace side and I do believe TrueSpace 8 will see the Model side disappear completely. But before that happens, I would like to see Workspace become more user friendly for us established users. As with Paul's post above, this is not an attack on Caligari or TrueSpace's future direction, just concerns from a long time user.
One of the biggest problem with Workspace in my humble view (I have used TS since 4.3 but is still a newbie) is that it is very different from modelview (why? I could look like it with new code) and that it simply LACKS several tools!
No booleans, for instance? Why not, when modelside has them since version 1.0? |
Post by Steinie // Jan 16, 2008, 10:48am
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There should be absolutely no reason for any user to have to fight with a piece of software...ever!
If it happens the cause should be lack of training, knowledge, skill, not meeting hardware requirements, missing files etc. The application should perform as promised or be fixed.
Maybe it was a bad move having Vray require the bridge. Seems like that might be at the root of these problems.
Once the tools are moved over this year blow it up as far as I'm concerned. If you all worked strictly on the workSpace side (knowing that the missing tools will be added soon) would you still have the same complaints?
I think the lights are getting improved, they'd be nuts if they didn't see all the complaints about that. For me it DOES feel like an improved TS, just not finished. |
Post by jayr // Jan 16, 2008, 10:50am
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One of the biggest problem with Workspace in my humble view (I have used TS since 4.3 but is still a newbie) is that it is very different from modelview (why? I could look like it with new code) and that it simply LACKS several tools!
No booleans, for instance? Why not, when modelside has them since version 1.0?
This is because the workspace isn't finished yet and because it isn't finished we still have the modelside. At least thats what seems to be the case from a users point of view. This has been discussed before, and will again till all the tools are moved over i think. |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 16, 2008, 11:22am
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This is because the workspace isn't finished yet and because it isn't finished we still have the modelside. At least thats what seems to be the case from a users point of view. This has been discussed before, and will again till all the tools are moved over i think.
I understand that workspace isn't finished yet, but why do Caligari for instance add new functionality to workspace (hair, for instance) before every old tools is moved over? Of course, I like new functionality but this decision made me puzzled - why not simply finish workspace first, making model side obsolete and then add new functionality?
I guess that is because that don't sell licenses, but new functionality do. However, current state makes me think of TS 7.51 more like two product than one - the old and trusted modelside and the new and unproven workspace.
Also, I don't understand why they didn't keep more of the look of the old TS series. I was one that liked the old interface because it was easy to learn. The new one feels harder to get to know, perhaps because I am used to the old. |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 11:30am
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Once the tools are moved over this year blow it up as far as I'm concerned. If you all worked strictly on the workSpace side (knowing that the missing tools will be added soon) would you still have the same complaints?
But I can't work there Steinie, This is not about being stubborn for the sake of it, it's about not being able to use Booleans or Nurbs in workspace, nor plug in's and Dribble. Sure I could set up the UI to be something like model-hot keys and all, but I would have to use the bridge for the missing tools and what about when I need to go back to a LW based render??
Bottom line for me is, I need all the important tools in workspace to migrate and that includes nurbs or some sweep along path/loft etc. equivalent as well as booleans.
I want to harness the power of the new architecture but not at the expense of my own 'power'. |
Post by Burnart // Jan 16, 2008, 12:02pm
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Also, I don't understand why they didn't keep more of the look of the old TS series. I was one that liked the old interface because it was easy to learn. The new one feels harder to get to know, perhaps because I am used to the old.
I think part of the problem with the icon driven environment of 6.6 & modelside is the fact that they have over 400 icons! Maybe long time users (ie started at version 3) have come to grips with them all and where they are all located but if you are hopping into it at the v6 stage they are a real nightmare - at least I've found it so.
The new workspace environment with its advanced LE and library browser functions, plus the right side library views limit some of this icon stuff. I like where its going - just wish it would get there quicker! Which means porting more tools & render options (ie. lightworks) over and getting the stability ironed out. (Perhaps there will be a standalone converter for legacy truSpace scenes in order to bring them into a future tS?) |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 12:18pm
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I think part of the problem with the icon driven environment of 6.6 & modelside is the fact that they have over 400 icons!
It's a few more than that....trust me...;)
Good point though, I was trying to demo version 4.3 to a student today and I thought the UI was missing..it was that bare. It has grown a lot since then. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 16, 2008, 4:26pm
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Paul I understand what you want to say in this thread !
Well I can remember a post a few months ago in which
you said that you too are looking foreward to the time
when nurbs come to workspace !
I found out about 3d software that the computers are running
hot on most of what we are doing.
I just rendered a planet in Mojoworld this weekend and
It rendered for three days on a quad core at 25 % Cpu
-probably just on 1 core and after these three days it quit
telling me I cant save Tiffs nor can I save jpegs in the end
I was lucky it did save png !
Those are just the non logical things about CG technology !
A single application cant do everything.
I today trust on a few of them and that takes out the stress
with Truespace ! I now relax and watch the transition to
new technology.I´m now at a point where I take what I
get. The posts about Dryad show that while Truespace struggles
with one tree and the texturing of it Vue plants and textures
hundreds of them in a few minutes (eco system ) and renders
them out flawlessly. Its just a brush stroke ! While it is made for
high poly count it falls short on other things. You cant realy model
in that application. I dont expect TS 8 to be an application
to be the "I can do everything " thing either.
The prices of software used to be very high some 10 years ago
in the ten thousands region for professional software but they are
down to a hundred (some very good modeling and nurbs software )or in worst cases a few hundred per seat.
Some very good software even freeware (incl. fantastic render software)!
Some of the best people here (like Madmouse) go the multi application
route!If something goes wrong in one software you always have the other..
Time is money too !
If your client doesnt get what he wants you have much more to lose.
You dont have to give up using Truespace because of that:) |
Post by Tiles // Jan 16, 2008, 10:17pm
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I guess that is because that don't sell licenses, but new functionality do.
Maybe when this new functionality would work. But is always as buggy as the rest of the tools.
Not working new functionality looses customers. Comeon, what's a bevel worth when you cannot adjust its degrees?
Not fixed old bugs looses customers. A shame to report dozens of bugs and don't get a single one fixed after several months.
A software where you just report bugs instead getting things done looses customers. I have finally given up "using" TS 7.5 and uninstalled it. I cannot use it anyway.
What me really really scares is the fact that so less people complain about this not working software. I get somekind of bashed instead when reporting a bug. Geez ...
One's for sure, a mesh cannot be shaped with a future update that comes in two years. It cannot be shaped with promises or visions too. And of course not with tools that misses the needed functionality, or doesn't work at all. You need working tools to shape a mesh. Maybe somebody can explain this to Caligari some days ... |
Post by splinters // Jan 16, 2008, 11:03pm
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Alas Rayman, I have not time to learn a new piece of software; those days are gone for me I am afraid. Any and all spare time is spent producing commercial work or my own projects and I have less and less time to spare. I have Bryce 6, Hexagon 2, Carrara 5 to name a few but all I can really use productively are trueSpace and Photoshop. Sure I get a bit of free time now and again but then I try to be productive rather than learning new software.
I love tS, I really do and I like the way workspace is going but I do need access to tools I know as well as new renderers and materials.
A little constructive criticism about a program is healthy, Trebs did the same regarding the quality of artwork in the gallery and was lambasted and applauded in equal measure but, for the last few months at least, there was an increase in quality. Nothing is perfect, tS certainly so, but I am really more concerned about access and workflow here.
I don't want a promise that model side will be developed; it is old code and has to go, I know that, but until workspace has all the tools necessary, how can I use Vray reliably?
In the cold light of day I can't even see what direction this thread is going but I do know that my workrate is being slowed down. I am happy as hell using LW as I can turn the bridge off...but Vray, well that is my problem. A bit of flexibility is all I ask; Vray and Workspace or Model and LW seems to be the only real choice here. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jan 17, 2008, 12:04am
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With all due respect to the opinions of others but how much of these comments here are a result of the way that different folk have different expectations?
I've said it before and will doubtless say it again that I think the bridge is a superb innovation and should not be a drawback to any truly effective work flow. At the risk of using a tired cliche it's a question of the half full glass and the half empty glass. It's how you look it.
The very first 3d modeler I used had a system of 'rooms' - a modeling room for all the PE tools, a Texture room for the texture tools an animation room for constructing animation clips, skeletons and rigging and finally a scene room to put it all together. If you were in the scene room and needed to tweak a texture or some geometry or an animation you had to leave the scene room, go back to the other appropriate room, make your changes and the return to the scene room to carry on.
It seems to me that this is a jargon thing - we can go from 'room' to 'room' or we can go across the bridge. In fact the software I'm referring too could be seen as having a series of Bridges for moving between the rooms. Ultimately, you can't do texture work in the animation room, nor would you expect too. This is a design feature not a failing - and I believe the same can be said for the tS 7 bridge.
The bridge is a piece of code that allows you to do certain things, just like any other piece of code. Trying to use it for things it is not designed for is not a design problem necessarily but a human error problem - the error being unrealistic expectations.
The "OMG trueSpace has 400 (or more) icons and I'll never learn them all" thing is a head trip. It's absolutely no different to having to learn 400 (or more) specialised text entries in a menu. A red coloured octagon means 'stop' in exactly the same way that the letters S,T,O, and P do (when placed in the right order). A human brain is basically a learning and pattern recognition device and can remember both and what they mean with no difficulty - once it's meaning and purpose has been learned.
Lastly, and perhaps more on topic - when an artist as experienced and able as Splinters has difficulties with a piece of software (which by definition must be an exercise in logic to function) then the question must be asked (with all due respect to Paul of course) is - ' what are your expectations and are they realistic?' Vray does some things better than LW but LW does some things better than Vray (layered textures volumetrics and so forth). The DX9 shaders are capable of awesome results that neither Vray no LightWorks can get near to. Then of course there's Dribble.....:D
So if a man of Splinters caliber is struggling then I'm wondering if he's asking too much of the tool he's using - in this case Vray. If so, then his heartfelt plea for more functionality is totally appropriate - and lets face it, we all want more and we want it now!!
Personally I've never found any software package that does everything it's supposed to with perfection - tS is no different. My philosophy is to do what works and to combine that with doing what you enjoy - as a result every experience I have with trueSpace is joyful and I think it rocks.
Is it perfect? No. Can it do everything I want it to, the way I want it too? No and to expect it to is unrealistic. We live in an entropic universe, chaos and order in dynamic tension and the secret to happiness is wanting what you have not having what you want!
DISCLAIMER ;
1, I don't actually have Vray so I'm not really qualified to comment on that.
2, I love using tS so much that I'm more than happy to overlook its imperfections and foibles and am therefore incapable of a balanced perspective and
3, I've had a few tasty beers this evening to try and stay cool - it's a very warm summer here...... |
Post by Changa // Jan 17, 2008, 12:36am
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Vray and Workspace or Model and LW seems to be the only real choice here.
Because of this I finally use Model side only. Bridge is completely off. Starting new scene I also "clean" WS (new space button) in order to remove ghost objects. After all of these TS is more or less stable, does not loose textures and allows to use LW, Vray or Dribble. And do not forget to restart TS before rendering to free RAM. And save a scene often! It is not an advice for you Splinters, I sure you know all that much better. It is my pain. Every time starting new project I gess what happen this time.:(
I want to have ready to drive car, not a heap of spare parts and a best in the world toolset to assemble. At least the Manual should be good.:D. |
Post by splinters // Jan 17, 2008, 2:19am
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Wizard, my needs are very humble. Simply, models and other digital assets built up over many years or for a custom projects such as this brought into model side as I always have...and I have a lot of assets I need here-some as far back as tS1!!
I normally render in LW and that is why I have had no real gripe before but this client wants that Little Cloud/GI/Soft look that is so easy in Vray.
So, no expectations here other then rendering stuff I have had for years (and can make with ease in model) using the renderer I bought.
The problem is simply the bridge which links two programs: the model tools and assets I need are intrinsic to one, the renderer intrinsic to the other. As my scenes become more complex, I start to have real problems (if you can call my style complex!).
In case this thread is getting convoluted at all: I use model side a lot even though I love the power promised by workspace-I am not anti-future tS just pro-paycheque!
But I want to use Vray in that scenario and, at the moment, I am having some real difficulty...but it does eventually render as expected so I am not having a go at VRay either...just the way the two are linked. Nothing more than that really.
Oh, and when model side is completely gone can I still use LW...please?? |
Post by Stem // Jan 17, 2008, 3:44am
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The bridge is a piece of code that allows you to do certain things, just like any other piece of code. Trying to use it for things it is not designed for is not a design problem necessarily but a human error problem - the error being unrealistic expectations.I do not think it is unrealistic to expect the ability to change from model side to workspace without error, this is actually what the "code(bridge)" is meant to do, is it not?
But as put forward, this change over can cause problems as mentioned. How can this be the user at fault? or unrealistic expectations? |
Post by rrf // Jan 17, 2008, 4:32am
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I think Caligari will have to either include LW or include Vray internally when they switch to WS for good - the people who don't have Vray (like me) need something to render with. I also feel more comfortable in MS...I really, really like how almost all the tools you need 'pop' up next to you when editing ( and I would be definitely interested in a 'script' to implement that feature in WS..) The dropdowns in WS seem to take longer to pick through, and I haven't had the time to take the menus apart to make my own interface yet
rf |
Post by splinters // Jan 17, 2008, 4:35am
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splinters
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A lot of conjecture has appeared here regarding tS reliability, design decisions etc. and I apologise for that but there is a fair point there. The bridge should simply link the Vray render to the model side UI. I am a bit rusty on the LE and settings etc. but am I missing a way of simply sending the data to be rendered without actually syncing the geometry/model data all the time (which seems to be what causes the problems)?
Undo is the main culprit with ages from hitting it to the UI becoming responsive again! Often I move the mouse around during that long pause and then things fly around the screen.
I can actually render from model side with the Bridge turned off but textures do not update and other little quirks happen...oh, and it seems to take much longer! |
Post by jayr // Jan 17, 2008, 4:48am
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I think Caligari will have to either include LW or include Vray internally when they switch to WS for good - the people who don't have Vray (like me) need something to render with.
rf
Thats if they don't add another render engine altogether. It's not impossible that truespaces link with lightworks might end some day. I remember someone on the old forum asked what it would take to seperate truespace from lightworks and the answer was a complete rewrite of the code, which is begining to happen.
This is just conjecture, i have no inside knowledge.
But as you say rjeff, workspace needs a render included, which one is another matter |
Post by Norm // Jan 17, 2008, 7:18am
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But it is just this point that is at crux of matter. The very reason the bridge is there is because of two technologies. If the bridge by design is necessary (which it is), it is because of the incompatibility of both worlds.
In meantime the ship must move forward. Vray was intended for workspace.
There is not a piece of software I do not have issues with. But as the Wiz points out, we use it for its strengths, beliefs and degree of hope for better things to come. Has been this way since beginning of man ... looking for a bigger club :)
I do not think it is unrealistic to expect the ability to change from model side to workspace without error, this is actually what the "code(bridge)" is meant to do, is it not?
But as put forward, this change over can cause problems as mentioned. How can this be the user at fault? or unrealistic expectations? |
Post by Burnart // Jan 17, 2008, 12:18pm
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The "OMG trueSpace has 400 (or more) icons and I'll never learn them all" thing is a head trip. It's absolutely no different to having to learn 400 (or more) specialised text entries in a menu.
Most of the time I have a lot of respect for you point of view but I'll take issue with the quoted point. For a start I was talking about MY experience and I say again - learning the icons, where they were and what they looked like was a nightmare compared to other software I've used. If that was my experience I'm sure its one other people have shared. Frankly its more like learning a new language in order to decode the interface than reading "specialised text entries". There are advantages to it as well but my point was that the volume of icons was going up and up with every release. The workspace still uses lots of icons I'm not against icons - there are however other solutions in interface design and thankfully Caligari is adopting some of them (- as well as using icons!)
Its a good thing. I'm applauding the new direction. |
Post by splinters // Jan 17, 2008, 12:53pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Aha, we come full circle. I can only defend the icons for obvious, and personal reasons...:rolleyes:
Model side is simply a reworking of tS6.6...no more icons and no less.
Workspace icons are all new, there are fewer of them and, I hope, they are distinctive while remaining familiar to anyone who has used tS6.6.
Strange to have to chip in about this after starting this thread through my frustrations. Perhaps I should simply have asked about the future of the bridge and LW and left it at that.
I am sure that by tS8 these concerns will be gone, but tS7.6 may still have some of the same (bridge) problems for me at least. |
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