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A heartfelt plea to Caligari
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A heartfelt plea to Caligari // Roundtable
Post by Emmanuel // Jan 19, 2008, 10:20am
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Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
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This was my first solution but when you change materials and other settings they are not always updated. Really grates when you see a 2 hour render finish and something went wrong. But I take your point.
Splinter, the key is to place a New_Workspace_Scene button somewhere in your Modeler interface -or to use the File>New_Scene command from the Workspace menu, in the main title bar-, to hit before every new V-Ray render. I agree it increases the render time because trueSpace has to copy/translate all your scene objects into Workspace prior to render, but that is the only way to make sure the render will show what you have in Modeler.
By the way, I didn't entered the topic yet, but I share all your concerns about Workspace workflow. It becomes evident that the 'innovations' in Workspace do modify in depth the workflow we are used to, and since developpers do not want to let us keep our old habits, we are just forced to learn a new software -a software that lacks 70% of the tools we need.
I don't think I will like to model and render with Workspace workflow though : my work requires precision and even if Workspace can be colourfull, fun & fast in some tasks, it is just not up to the level for that sort of work.
This being said, I don't think I would move to an other program though, because Modeler and its ton of plugins actually offer all the features I need for illustration, architecture and animation, and Workspace/truePlay provides with a real-time presentation solution... And this is all I need :p |
Post by splinters // Jan 19, 2008, 12:36pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I am enjoying reading this thread, from a 'rant' born of frustration, many wise words have been spoken and most of them have been intelligent and constructive. Emmanuel, I share your point of view. I have no desire to scrap all I have learnt about tS and learn a new program, so I won't. My contract is nearing it's end thanks to my almost obsessive workrate (I wiil show it here once I get permission) so I can go back to experimental Vray stuff and turn the bridge off permanently for my LW based book projects. No harm done but I would like to take this opportunity to ask for a few things to be considered for the near future
1. A simplified means to render using Vray from model side.
2. A means to render using LW from workspace once...
3. ..all major tools are ported over to the workspace.
Not much to ask for there, and I haven't mentioned fabric, fur and fluid....:rolleyes: |
Post by noko // Jan 19, 2008, 3:36pm
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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Splinters, no need to enable bridge at all to make Vray render from Model. Keep it off all the time. I suppose Ts transfers your current scene to WS for rendering in background. It works for me.
Yes that is true, but everytime you render VRay from model side WS side should be updated meaning up to twice the memory usage for scene will be needed since model side and WS side would have whole scene geometry and textures each in memory. I am not sure if Splinters is running out of memory while rendering which may cause some of the problems he noted.
Hey Paul, yes been very busy testing and creating new shaders which I hope will break the surface soon. Really exciting times I think for Caligari coming in the near future from the hard work of deveolopers and users alike. |
Post by Stem // Jan 20, 2008, 3:43am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Are you saying there is restrictions between the available ability of the bridge? I thought this had been made very clear as "Yes"
Further, if I can't apply a new texture to my model in the 'animation room', or point edit in the 'texture room' can't that be seen as a limitation of crossing from one room to another - or from one side of the bridge to another?Let me make my thoughts clear.
OK, as with for example, Carrara, this uses rooms for various functions, model, texture. render etc, is this a limitation, no, but if for example I was changing between these rooms and losing/corrupting model data, or textures applied where lost when going to render room, then I would call it a bug, in fact I would call it a disaster.
Now, with TS7.5, we have the bridge, when crossing this bridge data is corrupted, textures lost, even crashing of TS but this is put forward as a limitation, and that users have too much expectations on that bridge.
It is also put forward that the bridge is a translater, from one language to another, and that it cannot be expected to be accurate, why not, is it different vendors producing the versions?
Some put forward that they disable the bridge and only use version 6, then why purchase version 7?
As put forward by Bobbins, there are no nerbs in version 7.5 and the user should not expect to be able to create these in the model side and to be able to cross the bridge error free, why should I not expect this, yes, there are the posts stating why not, but TS7.5 clearing states the use of nerbs, not that they can only be used in version 6.6.
I know whatever is posted on a negative side will simply be brushed aside by many here, but that will not help the product improve.
Anyway, I have better to do than go around in circles with this. For me, Splinters as made a valid point, the unfortunate truth is that this will probably not be resolved until version 8 or after, and the fact user of 7.5 will need to pay for this.
Regards, |
Post by prodigy // Jan 20, 2008, 4:07am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Aohla guys!
Ts7.11 works amazing with vray 1.0, don't know why but i still prefering 7.11 than 7.5 to work with model side..
The other truth is im feeling much confortable in workspace now but that is personal desition and it's true we need many usesful tools from MS like booleans and such :)
About Bridge, yes, you can use bridge off to improve your speed, but anytime you render or paint, MS need to send all your scene data to WS.
So i recomend to use the bridge in ON and FULL.
Cheers. |
Post by splinters // Jan 20, 2008, 9:01am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Thanks prodigy but there is nothing here we do not already know or have discussed in this thread. I vaguely remember 7.11 being more stable with Vray/bridge etc. and I vaguely remember hot-keys working across both sides so in both respects here we have taken a step backwards.
As for the bridge, there is no mystery to how it works, no problem with the settings just a lot of problems using Vray in model side as the scene becomes more complex...I was testing the bridge before you joined the forum Prodigy, telling me to turn it 'on and full' is a bit of an insult to my intelligence really, especially at this stage in the thread.
But, don't take that as an attack. I have a great deal of respect for you and your work I think it is just the way you worded this. One day I will tell you an interesting tale about the end of my Beta Testing. |
Post by prodigy // Jan 20, 2008, 10:39am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Dear Splinters,
I never tried to ofence you, i just put the basic, cos there's many other users on the same location as you and with less experience on truespace.
This kind of basic tips for you are basic or dumb answers but for many others may are very important tips.
No matter how many time i post this kind of things you can always find someone asking.. "where can i turn off the bridge?" (Don't worry, i asked the same question when i jump for 7.11 :rolleyes: )
Be cool. |
Post by splinters // Jan 20, 2008, 11:37am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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It is no problem Augusto. I PM'd you anyway...:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Jan 21, 2008, 2:43am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Bob, you were quoting me so I'm going to assume your questions were intended for me.
Re: 'OK, as with for example, Carrara, this uses rooms for various functions, model, texture. render etc, is this a limitation, no, but if for example I was changing between these rooms and losing/corrupting model data, or textures applied where lost when going to render room, then I would call it a bug, in fact I would call it a disaster.'
Damn straight! So would I! A bug causing a function to fail is no use to anyone. However a function that looks like a bug is not a bug. Yes generally there are no real limitations in going around the various rooms - that was sort of my point. But, if you build some character geometry in the point edit mode, then texture in Texture Mode then rig and animate it in the anim room.... well that's all good, but if you go and change the geometry in the PE mode you will lose your animation data - not because of a bug or a limitation in the software - but because that's inherent to the way 3d animation works.
I see similar qualities in the Bridge. One side of the river is cobbled alleys the other side is 4 lane super highways - now when you build a bridge across the river do you build it to take the horse drawn carriages from the old city or do you build it to take the 18 wheeler semi's from the new side! Neither technology is fully compatible therefore there are limitations but these are not bugs nor are they necessarily errors or oversights in design (although of course they MIGHT be!).
I have no interest in poor workmanship or bad design - I do have an interest in doing something toward clearing up confusion - particularly when necessary design factors are incorrectly perceived as design flaws.
"It is also put forward that the bridge is a translater, from one language to another, and that it cannot be expected to be accurate, why not, is it different vendors producing the versions?" The vendors are not reallyv relevant to the fact that translation is not a precise 1 to 1 mapping.
For any code to be useful enough to transmit complex information it must have a degree of complexity itself - translating any code or language to any other code or language inherently contains data voids - words for which there is no direct translation. Each unique language has it's own unique structure and logic that is not fully compatible with any other language.
New Zealand is a Bilingual nation - we recognize 2 national languages Maori and English. We commonly use Maori words in our everyday speech because they describe things more effectively than the nearest English Equivalent.
Whanau (Far-now) is the the Maori word for Family. When I say 'Family' to most European descended people they think in terms of a small and distinct genetically and socially linked groups comprising a central core of Mum Dad and the kids - the archetypal Nuclear Family - with cousins', Uncles,' Aunties' and so on on a sort of second layer around the outside.
But when a Maori person hears the word 'Family' his terms of reference a quite different - Maori culture is heavily shaped by the idea of an extended family which has no separate layer between immediate family and cousins and so on. To a Maori speaking person there is no difference between a brother and a cousin.
People living in New Zealand soon learn to differentiate between the two different social norms and the differences between the cultural terms of reference. You cannot say 'family' to a Maori speaking person and expect it to mean the same thing to them as it does to you.
Maori is an old language and prior to the coming of the White Man they had no words for car, or gun, or computer - English is a far broader language with far more specialised names - there can be no precise matches in meaning, only approximate ones.
Now I don't know anything about computer programing or writing software beyond the fact that it's written in coded languages each with specific syntax and grammar. And I do know that translation from one language to another always involves approximation and therefore data loss.... and therefore expecting the bridge to perform tasks it's not designed for is non-realistic.
I see a lot of 'bridge bashing' here in the forums which is only partially deserved - yes there are limitations to any bridge between fundamentally different spaces. Yes Caligari needs to listen to what the customer is saying but they cannot do the impossible.... well, at least not instantly - give them some time......
I thought this had been made very clear as "Yes"
Let me make my thoughts clear.
OK, as with for example, Carrara, this uses rooms for various functions, model, texture. render etc, is this a limitation, no, but if for example I was changing between these rooms and losing/corrupting model data, or textures applied where lost when going to render room, then I would call it a bug, in fact I would call it a disaster.
Now, with TS7.5, we have the bridge, when crossing this bridge data is corrupted, textures lost, even crashing of TS but this is put forward as a limitation, and that users have too much expectations on that bridge.
It is also put forward that the bridge is a translator, from one language to another, and that it cannot be expected to be accurate, why not, is it different vendors producing the versions?
Some put forward that they disable the bridge and only use version 6, then why purchase version 7?
As put forward by Bobbins, there are no nerbs in version 7.5 and the user should not expect to be able to create these in the model side and to be able to cross the bridge error free, why should I not expect this, yes, there are the posts stating why not, but TS7.5 clearing states the use of nerbs, not that they can only be used in version 6.6.
I know whatever is posted on a negative side will simply be brushed aside by many here, but that will not help the product improve.
Anyway, I have better to do than go around in circles with this. For me, Splinters as made a valid point, the unfortunate truth is that this will probably not be resolved until version 8 or after, and the fact user of 7.5 will need to pay for this.
Regards, |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2008, 3:24am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have noticed a pattern within the responses to threads addressing the 'bridge' and it is pretty obvious really. Those who have embraced the workspace and gotten used to it (this can often be those who come to tS7 first with little knowledge of tS6.6) make an argument in support of that side and empthatetically wish for the model side to go.
Others who are more familiar with model side, long for new features and more stability etc. but find that the workspace is either too confusing, or limited in tools, for them to make the move so they wait or denounce it alltogether.
Neither are wrong. Right tool for the right job really. If you have invested time or money into tS then you are not easily going to change program for another.
The only answer to all of this (other than migrating elsewhere) is to sit it out until the workspace has all the necessary tools and model becomes redundant. Unfortunately this is difficult for me as I explained in the first post of this thread but I do understand.
If you were here when I was a tester you would have heard me defending the workspace and actively posting images from workspace and Vray tests. I did quite a bit to test hair and SSS and I am still actively working on the UI so no-one can call me 'anti-workspace'. Quite the opposite but it is not quite 'complete' enough for me to go over there just yet. I rely on Booleans and Nurbs just a bit to much (and LW). I even use .stl files for CAM work so I would need that function as well.
I am glad I started this thread but sorry if I, in any way, came across as disullusioned or unhappy with Caligari...I am not. Just frustrated that two elements of a program I know well and use often do not work together as I expected.
But the job is nearly done and my client is very happy so we got there in the end. I don't actively test anymore so this is the only place I can air my views but I will be keeping an eye on the future of tS and won't hesitate to speak up if I think something is amiss. |
Post by transient // Jan 21, 2008, 4:17am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Some put forward that they disable the bridge and only use version 6, then why purchase version 7?
Version 7 has a lot of advantages even if you don't like workspace. A much faster gui, upgraded Lightworks renderer and it seems to crash a lot less. Plus ipak is now standard, not a plug-in. You can also use the dribble renderer in modeler, so I've read.
Granted this may not seem worth 300+ bucks, but Caligari are in transition at the moment, so some turbulence is understandable.
That said, I wish we had the option in workspace to have a clone of the 6.6 gui, or as near as possible. I'm a bit different to most as I've sort of learned them concurrently, and I have to say the old gui is much better at this stage. |
Post by Paul Boland // Jan 23, 2008, 12:04pm
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Just want to apologuise to anyone who found my last post to this topic in poor taste, no offence was intended, but I got a couple of emails from folks who weren't happy with my points of view. I've removed the post. Sorry about that, didn't mean to offend anyone. |
Post by Stem // Jan 24, 2008, 1:26pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Version 7 has a lot of advantages even if you don't like workspace. A much faster gui, upgraded Lightworks renderer and it seems to crash a lot less. Plus ipak is now standard, not a plug-in. You can also use the dribble renderer in modeler, so I've read.OK, thanks for the explanation. (but, would your description of less crashes indicate validation of posts I have seen of bug fixes in later version that should of been made in the previous?)
Granted this may not seem worth 300+ bucks, but Caligari are in transition at the moment, so some turbulence is understandable.Well, to some degree I can accept. But I also accept that problems with the bridge should not be such a concern/problem to the end user, probably better implementation from Caligari on this point.
That said, I wish we had the option in workspace to have a clone of the 6.6 gui, or as near as possible. I'm a bit different to most as I've sort of learned them concurrently, and I have to say the old gui is much better at this stage.I admit that I am a little lost with TS 6.6 UI as I missed versions 5/6. The workspace7.5 is easy to use. |
Post by Stem // Jan 24, 2008, 1:54pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hi Paul,
Just want to apologuise to anyone who found my last post to this topic in poor taste, no offence was intended,I did not see your post you mention.
Maybe some could see my posts as possible attack or bashing, but they are not. They are just my feelings/thoughts
Regards, |
Post by Stem // Jan 26, 2008, 9:44am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hi Bobbins,
LightWorks textures on model side to WorkSpace, not possible since WorkSpace has no knowledge of the renderer.I am just started to dig into the materials. I see on the Workspace side this adds LW textures (I presume these are LightWorks textures). If there is no compatibility within Workspace for these, then why are they added? |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 26, 2008, 10:00am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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The way I understand it (I'll probably get it wrong) is that Workspace side is real time render and you need to use the materials in the Library or make your own procedural shaders.
If you use Vray on the workspace side you'll need to use Vray materials.
The Modeler side can use Vray or Light Ray. The materials for the modeler side are specific to the Light Ray engine, although I have had some success rendering them in Vray as well. |
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