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Best input devices for 3D design
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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Best input devices for 3D design // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Jan 20, 2008, 11:31pm
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splinters
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Just after the opinions of fellow 3D design software users really. I have the Wacom Intuos A5 as well as a Space Navigator but I am finding that many hours on the PC are taking their toll on my wrists (carpal syndrome starting?).
Anyway, I was wondering what the best mouse/keyboard sets were for long use especially within design.
I am a designer and therefore aware of the need for more ergonomic design which is why I had my eye for a long time on Microsoft's Natural Laser Mouse 6000 but at £40+ I didn't really take the plunge. A friend has one and really rates it but he uses it for WoW and other games so I have no idea what 6 or 7 hours 3D modelling will feel like.
However, Microsoft now do the following package:
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=095
Ebuyer here in the UK have it for £58 delivered which is a bargain considering how much the mouse costs alone.
I am poised over the BUY button as we speak but thought I would see if any 3D users have experience of this set up, or which keyboard/mice they find ideal for 3D design. I use a lot of Photoshop too but I don't type quite as much nowadays (last thesis was probably the last!).
All comments very welcome. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 2:22am
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RAYMAN
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Splinters !
Being a photographer I spend half the day behind
my computer.... and the mouse I use is a plain and ordinary
logitech mouse with a cable-usb .
I have a wacom A5 pad but dont use it much.
The mouse has to feel right in your hand..... and that can
be the cheapest you can get.More important is the position
you are sitting in in front of your screen.
I had that to high and the blood was always flowing out of my hand
so I had a dumb feeling in it after some time.
A normal mouse shouldnt do you much harm though !
Its a pretty natural movement..:)
Save that money and buy yourself the new moi 3d !!!!
It takes your modeling time down and saves yorself lots of grey hair with
the bridge.....
I learned it in 3 days.. its realy simple ! |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2008, 3:06am
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splinters
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Cheers Rayman, but my current mouse is starting to cause discomfort and I have a bit of spare cash anyway. I would not pay £100's just for the sake of it but that mouse is the most comfortable I ever tried; I just don't know what it is like for long periods of time.
Maybe it is the speed (and intensity) I work at but I really need a comfortable mouse and none of the 'standard' shape ones seem to fit the bill.
Actually, as stock was running low at that price, I just ordered it but I would still be happy to hear other tS users' thoughts. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 3:29am
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RAYMAN
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If it feels good in your hand then get it !
Dont forget what I told you about cutting your model times though..its
all that TS doesnt have at the moment a well integrated nurbs toolset.
Its even much faster then rhino ...and easy to learn
Mark (3d visualsdude)introduced us to it some time ago !;) |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 3:50am
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RAYMAN
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Just to demonstrate what I´m talking about.... |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2008, 4:13am
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splinters
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If it feels good in your hand then get it !
Dont forget what I told you about cutting your model times though..its
all that TS doesnt have at the moment a well integrated nurbs toolset.
Its even much faster then rhino ...and easy to learn
Mark (3d visualsdude)introduced us to it some time ago !;)
I have the beta somewhere but didn't install it on my new PC along with Carrara 5, Bryce 6, Hexagon 2, Poser 5 etc. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jan 21, 2008, 4:23am
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3dvisuals dude
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Hi Paul,
I use an old Wacom Intuos 3, and somewhere around here I even have an old used Wacom 12x12 SD kicking around from when I used to sell used Wacom packages on eBay. I've used a lot of Wacom products, never the Cintiq though which is priced out of my range, and have always preferred the fluidity of a stylus over that of using a brick, er... mouse.
What was said above here about the height of your hand as you are using a pad for extended hours is very true. Even with a Wacom setup in the past I have had the onset of what I thought at the time was definitely carpal tunnel, so I switched desks to an oak rolltop that has 2 slide-out arm tables and place my pad there as I sit in front of the computer for hours on end. The height difference of the new desk slide-out is 6 inches higher than the desk which was giving me the ct-like pains, and after about four days all that intense pain subsided and never returned, which was over 5 years ago.
So whatever you get, do experiment with height, I think you will find that the highest you can go without discomfort is definitely the best for extended use without ct-like pain setting in, and can actually eliminate it in a few days if adjusted to a higher level after it already has set in.
- Mark |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 4:23am
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RAYMAN
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I have the beta somewhere but didn't install it on my new PC along with Carrara 5, Bryce 6, Hexagon 2, Poser 5 etc.
That was not a good idea ! It does not have anything to do with any of these
applications ... its totaly different !
Its more like Sketchup !
Its what you are looking for believe me ! Just invest a few hours and you will
like it from the very start. The last beta still works into february ....
look at the screencast I made for you !
You will cut your modeltimes in half !
Peter |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2008, 4:31am
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splinters
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Software is a very subjective thing Rayman, I am glad you like it (and I will take another look) but you can't really say it was not a good idea failing to install it. You seem impressed with it but maybe it is not for everyone...:o |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 4:50am
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RAYMAN
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Software is a very subjective thing Rayman, I am glad you like it (and I will take another look) but you can't really say it was not a good idea failing to install it. You seem impressed with it but maybe it is not for everyone...:o
All I can tell you is try it out...its still in beta (downloads section) and
reread this quote you made and the plea thread say in 2 months from now
after you have used it every day.!;)
It only has a few tools and not very many buttons but as a complement
to Ts .... all those tools work together in a way no other tool does !
Stick with it for some time and go to the forums there its worth it.
You work with nurbs ..... I think this is made for you .... my subjectiv
feeling:)
Ps:Did I tell you that it was very difficult to convince my teachers ...
and that I was good at that hahahaha:D |
Post by ghost--scout // Jan 21, 2008, 7:44am
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ghost--scout
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Speaking from a gamer's perspective, what you buy really depends on how you move the mouse. Do you rest your entire palm on it and move the mouse with your entire arm or do you rest the heel of your palm on the mousepad and move the mouse with your fingers? A big mouse for resting your palm on, or a small mouse for moving with your fingers. I play first person shooters alot so I use a Razer Diamondback (Salamander Red Edition) and have the accompanying Razer Exact mat dual-sided aluminum mousepat that has a rough and fine texture for control and speed differences. For me I've found that it works pretty nicely in Truespace, although I don't spend 6-8 hours a day doing 3d design, I spend 2-3 hours on truespace and the rest working or COD4. |
Post by notejam // Jan 21, 2008, 10:41am
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notejam
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I suppose you mean digtal brushs, mice, joystick, digitizer pads, 2d scanners, 3d scanners, etc., but have you considered a digital camera and the right software to convert digital images to 3d?
There is a plugin for photoshop that will turn photos into 3d models automatically, and costs $150 Read more about it at http://www.strata.com/foto3d.asp |
Post by splinters // Jan 21, 2008, 11:37am
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splinters
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No, I was actually just interested in what mice/keyboards users were using beyond the Navigator or tablet options, with 3D or graphic work in mind. Not really that curious about software. As I originally explained I am (was) looking for a decent combo that might reduce RSI during long working hours.
I found the only ergonomic set at a decent price, that I actually liked. They were well priced so I bought them this morning...:D
Will let you know how they are. I am taking my limbs (and abuse to them) seriously so I want a good, healthy set up. |
Post by hemulin // Jan 21, 2008, 1:10pm
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hemulin
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Well, this thread seems to have digressed from the original post quite a bit. ;):D
Whilst I don't do 6/7 hours of 3d modeling (yet), I do spend quite a while at a computer ;). I have the Logitech MX1000 (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/mice/devices/783&cl=gb,en) and a basic Microsoft 500 Keyboard (http://www.ebuyer.com/product/120401) and so far these work great for me. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 21, 2008, 3:49pm
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RAYMAN
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Well, this thread seems to have digressed from the original post quite a bit.
No ! Talking about an input device is talking about the software too !
Some apps use the mousewheel more then others some use big arm movements more. So the mouse you are utilising is less a problem then
what movements you make ! So its a valid point !
Photoshop wants for a different input device then Truespace.....!
Second its a question of personal taste and taking it into your hands
yourself. Wacom tablets looked wonderfull in the ads and the
first image programs like Kodaks Premiere and the liking were all produced
for tablets ... but when it comes to hands on I find them just plainly
not for me !Or lets put it that way.... if you have a tennis arm a different
raket wont change the problem .....just swing it less often ! |
Post by W!ZARD // Jan 21, 2008, 10:11pm
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W!ZARD
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I use pretty average mouses, meeces, mice... and keyboard. Also having worked extensively in call centres requiring constant use (no sitting about waiting for a render to cook!) I became very familiar with RSI issues.
Easily the most effective prevention measure I've come across is teaching yourself to operate your mouse with your sub-dominant hand - i.e. your left hand if you are right-handed and the other way around if you're a lefty.
Working in a call centre where you use a phone a great deal it becomes really usefull to be able to mouse left handed while operating the phone with the right.
Did it feel weird when I first use my non-mousing hand for mousing? Hell yes! But the human body/mind is incredibly adaptable and after a week of adapting I found I was as fleunt with both hands as I was with one.
Now, whenever I feel a little crampy or twingey in my mouse (left) hand I just swap to the right hand for a while (I'm naturally right-handed) - I cannot recommend this strategey too much.
I think that one distinct advantage of left hand mousing is that the left-click finger becomes your middle finger rather than your index finger - and the middle finger is much stronger than the index.
I also sometimes need to write things down - X,Y,Z co-ordinates and so on. Using the mouse with my left hand means I can more easily write with my right hand.
Everyone I know who has tried this now mouses with their sub-dominant hand.
I'm also often using 2 PC's simultaneously, my secondary machine with it's attendant mouse, is on my left and this feels a lot more natural somehow!
Hope this helps |
Post by notejam // Jan 22, 2008, 7:34am
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notejam
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[QUOTE=RAYMAN;58366]No ! Talking about an input device is talking about the software too !
Photoshop wants for a different input device then Truespace.....!
Yes it does, but I was thinking use a digital camera for truespace by use of the photoshop digital camera to 3d file plugin. It would be multistep process of convert the file after it got to photoshop into a truespace file. Now maybe if we are lucky, the powers that be will see the value of adding a photo shop plug in to truespace, so we can use this low cost tool to photo model directly in truespace, but even with all the conversion process, its still the best usb input device around for us low skilled modelers. |
Post by butterpaw // Jan 22, 2008, 12:37pm
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Hmm it would be nice if some of these mouses that are made to fit the hand so nicely would be made for left-handers too....
I use a stylus when I can so that I don't have to twist my forearm all the time... but since most 3d modeling software is not tolerant of them, I just use the mouse that comes with the stylus..
I use a graphire 4 (about $100) ... would like better but this one isn't too bad. I like the roller on the tablet for zooming in and out long distances - set it at 20 lines per click.. zooms pretty quick. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 22, 2008, 1:43pm
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RAYMAN
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notejam !
Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about !
are you talking about image modlers ... thats not what Paul
has in mind !
Butter and Wiz !
Have you looked at the mouse Paul has ordered !
It cant be used by the left hand.
The cheaper the mice are the more they are suitable for
both hands, thats what i see in the market.
Plus a stylus is not an imput device for 3d !
It just wont work with most of the applications.
Paul ! I just cant see why this new device should keep
you from having trouble with your hand..... apart from a psychological
effect. It may feel better but the strain will be the same.... my opinion... !
Your making the same movements ! Its the amount of these movements
that make you have your problems.
Maybe it could be a good idea for you to interrupt every now and then an
make some exercise. Ask a therapist what would be good for you.
I have very good effect with RUBRIMENT emulsion !
http://www.nycomed.at/allgemein/detail_allgemein.php?produkt_id=103
That works very good on any of those strains... it also relaxes the muscles
You get it in better pharmacies (maybe even in your country) and you dont need a perscription !
Its used in sports and does some wonderfull things !
It gets realy hot after some time but its good !
I´ve used it on my back some times .... and I couldnt even move !
I was crawling on all 4s !
Peter |
Post by splinters // Jan 22, 2008, 2:08pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Mmmm, a few points then;
1. I am a trained 3D designer and appreciate the benefits of ergonomically designed objects-it is not just pyschological but physiological. I have used one of these mice, albeit briefly, and it feels like holding a mug or shaking hands-a natural position for the hand. It should arrive tommorow and I have a nice big job to road test it!!
2. A tablet is not only a valid 3D input device but an excellent one that mimics the way we write with a pen. As for support, have you ever noticed the tablet option in the tS preferences panel??
3. Yes, I really need to take more breaks...my own fault really.
Finally, 3D software is not (technically) an input device and the link is tenuous at best. We are discussing physical objects used to interact with software here...:rolleyes: |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 22, 2008, 2:24pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Mmmm, a few points then;
1. I am a trained 3D designer and appreciate the benefits of ergonomically designed objects-it is not just pyschological but physiological. I have used one of these mice, albeit briefly, and it feels like holding a mug or shaking hands-a natural position for the hand. It should arrive tommorow and I have a nice big job to road test it!!
2. A tablet is not only a valid 3D input device but an excellent one that mimics the way we write with a pen. As for support, have you ever noticed the tablet option in the tS preferences panel??
3. Yes, I really need to take more breaks...my own fault really.
Finally, 3D software is not (technically) an input device and the link is tenuous at best. We are discussing physical objects used to interact with software here...:rolleyes:
Ad 1 : Laying your hand on a table onto something is just as physiologicaly
well suited as holding the mug or shaking a hand !
I have studied medical physio and anatomy and pathology .. no valid point
Paul !
Ad 2 : Good luck with Truespace and a pen tablet ! Tried it unpluged it !
Not useable !
Ad 3 : Never knew that a bottle with Rubriment was software ! HAHAHA !:D
You shouldnt drink it either ! Its used in sports medicine and has some
good effect ! At least it wouldnt harm !
Peter |
Post by Improv // Jan 23, 2008, 7:50am
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Improv
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Ad 1 : Laying your hand on a table onto something is just as physiologicaly well suited as holding the mug or shaking a hand !
I don't think that Splinters was saying that at all. He was merely commenting that holding a mug was a very natural and comfortable position for the human hand. It was an example of his ideal hand position.
Ad 2 : Good luck with Truespace and a pen tablet ! Tried it unpluged it !
Not useable !
"It's a poor workman that blames his tools" as they say. If you have a good quality tablet such as a Wacom Intuos3, all you need to do is set up a pen profile that is less sensitive when using for Truespace. (Thanks for that tip from Wicked Witch)
Not to mention all the nice express keys that you can use.
I can see where you might get your opinion if you used a cheap graphics tablet and/or only tried for 10 minutes. But if you take the time to learn, a good tablet is VERY useable with TrueSpace. You may not want to use one, but that's not the same as the tablet being unuseable.
Ad 3 : Never knew that a bottle with Rubriment was software ! HAHAHA !:D
You shouldnt drink it either ! Its used in sports medicine and has some
good effect ! At least it wouldnt harm !
You're talking about treating the injury after the fact, Splinters was talking about avoiding the tools that cause injury in the first place by using alternative input devices.
BTW-is English your first language? I don't say that to be insulting, but you seem to be misunderstanding the most fundamental things that he is saying.
Unless I am totally miss-understanding both of you-which has been known to happen! :D |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 23, 2008, 11:21am
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RAYMAN
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Looks like we are of different opinion more then a language problem !
But I´m open for everything !
He did not say "his" .... he said "a "natural position:rolleyes:
Yes I used a pen tablet with Ts for longer then 10 minutes
and that was not a nice feeling ... it was with TS 6.6 about 2 years ago.
Yes this was " my" feeling about it.
And "no" the link and we are only talking about that in the last post
had nothing to do with software.
Just wanted to help !!!!
I know how bad pain can be !!!!!;)
Apart from that on topic now I had to go to my big electronics store
to get some Cds and had the chance to take the 6000 series and
8000 into my hands and must say they have a very good feeling.
What I disliked about them was the overall weight.
They seem to be much heavier then the ones I have at the moment
but thats my first impression.
Peter |
Post by splinters // Jan 23, 2008, 11:27am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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No, you are spot on from my point of view Improv...on all points. I am not too keen on anyone being 'absolute' either; saying that a decision is a big mistake or that something is not a valid point...FACT!
Anyway, the key/mouse combo arrived and is lovely although the split style (ergonomic) keyboard is making me rethink my typing...mouse is great...just like drinking a mug of coffee (one of my favourite pastimes...:D |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 23, 2008, 11:38am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Thats what you get if you want to be helpfull and just because
someone gets something into the wrong throat.........(mistake)
nothings absolute. Paul you asked what we think about
the topic "Best input devices for 3D design ".
If that is not absolute.....
I dont care if I am wrong ..that may well be .. wouldnt change the world. |
Post by Paul Boland // Jan 23, 2008, 12:07pm
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Paul Boland
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...as well as a Space Navigator...
Sorry, don't mean to go off topic, but what is a Space Navigator? When I Google this, I get astronomical websites. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jan 23, 2008, 12:17pm
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RAYMAN
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Paul Boland !
See these pages ...
http://www.3dconnexion.de/ |
Post by Improv // Jan 23, 2008, 12:20pm
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Improv
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He did not say "his" .... he said "a "natural position:rolleyes:
So what? What he said still applies. Holding your hand in a slightly closed position (as you would for holding a cup, sword, shaking hands etc;) IS very natural-that's why some ergonomic input devices are made to that shape.
You seem to either want to nit pick at inconsequential parts of what he said or else you still don't get it. I think it's some of both IMHO.
Yes I used a pen tablet wit longer then 10 minutes
and that was not a nice feeling ... it was with TS 6.6 about 2 years ago.
Two years ago-hardly representative of the current state of either Truespace 7.5x or Wacom Intuos 3 drivers. Two years is about twenty years in computer terms. Since Splinters is using current, up to date Truespace, you using TS 6.6 two years ago is like me saying "Ya, I drove a Toyota twenty years ago-didn't like it,would never do it again!" :rolleyes:
It's one thing saying you don't want to use a tablet, that's your personal preference, fine. But please do not say that a good quality tablet like the Wacom Intuos does not work with TS 7.5x because it DOES work. (As long as there are no conflicts with your computer setup, of course.)
And "no" the link and we are only talking about that in the last post
had nothing to do with software.
Last time I looked, a mouse was hardware-so what's your point? No on second thought-don't bother replying. :rolleyes: |
Post by Paul Boland // Jan 23, 2008, 12:21pm
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Paul Boland
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Never mind, I found it. Was typing "Space Navigation" into Google! LOL!!!
This looks very interesting but on the list of supported software packages, I don't see TrueSpace listed. How well does this work with TrueSpace and would you (Paul) or anyone recommend it. I'm a whizz at moving around with the mouse but it can be slow. Space Navigator seems very fast! |
Post by Improv // Jan 23, 2008, 12:24pm
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Improv
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No, you are spot on from my point of view Improv...on all points. I am not too keen on anyone being 'absolute' either; saying that a decision is a big mistake or that something is not a valid point...FACT!
Anyway, the key/mouse combo arrived and is lovely although the split style (ergonomic) keyboard is making me rethink my typing...mouse is great...just like drinking a mug of coffee (one of my favourite pastimes...:D
Hey-whatever works to get the job done, right? :-)
Which one did you get? The one from your earlier posted link?
Cheers
Improv |
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