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Survey for truePlay / shared space users
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They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Survey for truePlay / shared space users // Roundtable
Post by TomG // Jan 24, 2008, 7:17am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
We've been contacted by someone carrying out a Masters project on 3D collaboration. As part of that, they have prepared a survey for folks who have used truePlay or taken part in any shared space events. While initially looking at Thursday Night Live!, if you take part in the Developers' Outreach, the Animators' Club, or the Scripting meetings then that would count too.
I'll send this info to a few regulars via email too, just to make sure everyone sees it - but even if you've been in there once, you'd be welcome to take part in the survey.
Here is the link for it:
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~luther/survey/caligari.html
They would like to follow up with some one-to-one telephone or email interviews too, so if any of you would like to do that, you can either use the contact info at the link, or just contact me and I can put you in touch directly.
We hope you'll take the time to fill in the survey, its short so won't take up a lot of your time :)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by prodigy // Jan 24, 2008, 7:29am
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prodigy
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Submited :) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jan 24, 2008, 10:26am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hi Tom,
As I mentioned to you previously in e-mail twice those of us in the Developers Outreach initiative are not disclosing the nature and specifics of several of our current projects publicly in any fashion. That includes this.
It is all being disclosed to Roman and has been from day one, but we cannot participate in this as it relates to the Developers Outreach (which you specifically referred to above) at all.
- Mark |
Post by Steinie // Jan 24, 2008, 10:36am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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This sounds like a gag order?:confused: Anyone attending your meetings cannot talk about DO if they are not specific?
The world is becoming a big NDA!:D What are you guys creating in there "Jurassic Park?"
Why can't they discuss the benefits of working on the project "together" just not talk about your "specific projects"? |
Post by TomG // Jan 24, 2008, 10:51am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The survey doesnt require specifics of projects that can't be discussed - instead it asks about what other software you use, what the experience is like, etc.
So those in the Developer's Outreach can indeed take the survey, naturally I was not asking folks to disclose sensitive information, and had the survey required that, I wouldn't have mentioned that DO attendees can take part in it :) I of course noted your statement that the projects cannot be discussed the first time around, and wouldnt be posting here if it required a breach of that.
Nothing in the survey relates to nature or specifics of projects.
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Délé // Jan 24, 2008, 11:01am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I just took the survey and you don't have to give any details at all. Plus a lot of the people that attend the D.O. meetings attend others as well. No need to get all worked up Mark. I'm sure nobody will disclose details about specific projects. I see no reason not to talk about what we're doing in those meetings as long as we don't go into the specifics of particular projects and contacts. After all, you disclose that kind of info nearly everyday on the forums here. |
Post by butterpaw // Jan 24, 2008, 2:08pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Quick! Hide the velociraptors! ;)
<__< ............ >__>
shhh .. don't tell about the velociraptors.. or everybody will want one! :D
Seriously, we'll be discrete ^_^ |
Post by 3dfrog // Jan 24, 2008, 2:25pm
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3dfrog
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I doed the survey. Do I get a cookie? :p |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jan 24, 2008, 8:16pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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The survey doesnt require specifics of projects that can't be discussed - instead it asks about what other software you use, what the experience is like, etc.
So those in the Developer's Outreach can indeed take the survey, naturally I was not asking folks to disclose sensitive information, and had the survey required that, I wouldn't have mentioned that DO attendees can take part in it :) I of course noted your statement that the projects cannot be discussed the first time around, and wouldnt be posting here if it required a breach of that.
Nothing in the survey relates to nature or specifics of projects.
Thanks!
Tom
Whether the survey itself is harmless or not it is not the survey itself but the potential follow-up interviews which could well pose a serious problem here.
As you stated in the first post:
They would like to follow up with some one-to-one telephone or email interviews too
Several of us in the DO are under existing Caligari N.D.A., including myself, and if one reads that N.D.A. with an eye toward whether certain aspects of it apply to certain specific things which we in the DO are already engaged in on behalf of Caligari, as well as to certain things which we in the DO intend to engage in on behalf of Caligari, our legal position in the DO is in fact definitely already defined there very clearly.
While a survey which on the face of it pertains only to inconsequential shared space-related experiences and opinions may only ask innocuous initial questions, any interviews subsequent to a DO member's participation in it may well involve a great deal more than that in the way of specific information, or not... but we don't know that yet.
Being already under Caligari N.D.A. and simultaneously being directly responsible for initiating and shaping this ongoing DO endeavor on behalf of Caligari in a legally predefined fiduciary manner it would be wreckless of me to encourage "interviews" with DO members at this particular point in time where the exact nature and scope of the interview questions are completely unknown.
naturally I was not asking folks to disclose sensitive information, and had the survey required that, I wouldn't have mentioned that DO attendees can take part in it
The subsequent voluntary "interviews" could well involve that, but at the moment none of us know yet whether they would. Consequently I have a direct responsibility in the DO to at the very least point that out.
- Mark |
Post by Délé // Jan 24, 2008, 9:25pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I believe we can think for ourselves Mark, thanks. You've asked us not to divulge specific information on projects, that's fine. Now please give us the courtesy to honor that, even if you seem to divulge stuff how and when you like. If you can't even trust us to make a sound judgment as to what to divulge and what to keep private, then how can you trust us enough to work with us? I don't see how the D.O. meetings can operate if you don't trust the people you're working with. Especially if/when money gets involved.
Caligari NDA has nothing to do with the D.O. meetings. I never signed a Caligari NDA with regards to the meetings. The only Caligari NDA I'm under is beta testing. I can talk about the meetings in shared space until my hearts content if I desire, as can anyone else.
Sorry folks, but I think this is about the last straw for me. I won't be attending the D.O. meetings anymore. If anyone needs help with scripting or anything in their scenes go ahead and PM me, I'll still be happy to help. I'm also still going to work on one of the projects that I brought up. Frog and I are working on that already. If anyone else wants to help with that one, you're more then welcome to join us. :) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jan 25, 2008, 1:58am
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Sorry you feel that way Matthew.
I interpret Paragraph 2 of the N.D.A. differently than you do:
Such Confidential Information may include, but is not limited to, all...
and also in paragraph 2:
Confidential Information may also include patents, intellectual property, research, and other trade secrets.
As I stated all along in every DO meeting everyone is free to do things differently and start their own initiative anytime they wish. Good luck.
- Mark |
Post by Steinie // Jan 25, 2008, 2:09am
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Steinie
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However your telling the rest of the members of DO the NDA rules applies to them also. Is that correct? Where in your rules of DO does it state that?
Is DO a Beta Testing Site? Why the private voice channels. If you guys are testing future stuff under the NDA umbrella cool, but that is not how it appeared in your meeting notices. You go to great lengths (almost to extreme) explaining each week how to get to a DO meeting but no where do you mention NDA.
A bunch of College students interviewing you under harsh lights for hours with a "Tickle Me Elmo" until you finally divulge secrets? ....come on.... |
Post by TomG // Jan 25, 2008, 2:31am
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TomG
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The follow up interviews are indeed voluntary, you can just say "no" and still complete the survey, giving useful information for this person's Masters project, and giving Caligari and yourselves some coverage.
People can also say yes to an interview, and simply not talk specific projects still. I will be giving a telephone interview, but naturally will not be divulging NDA info, info on future releases of tS / tP and so on. If questions come up about that, I'll just say I can't answer them. I have a ton of priveledged information about people and projects that naturally I will not be discussing in the interview, but I am capable of doing an interview all the same, so that I can share information that is shareable, while still respecting all the contracts, NDAs, agreements, gentleman's agreements etc that I am under.
In the end though, I didn't ask anyone to do the interview though, I just asked if folks would fill in the survey, which is indeed perfectly safe for people to do.
Tom |
Post by spacekdet // Jan 25, 2008, 7:19am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I doed the survey. Do I get a cookie?
You may have a cookie. You, however, may not disclose the receipt of said cookie, nor acknowledge the purported existence of any cookie, living or imaginary. Under no circumstances should the presentation nor acceptance of any alleged baked snack item be discussed, orally, in written form, by any electronic means up to and including transmission by Morse Code, in any way, shape, or form.
No way, no how...and we mean it, Buster.
* Milk not included. |
Post by stan // Jan 25, 2008, 7:45am
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stan
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Mark, maybe you should invest in a trueserve and a server to run your meetings..never know if you already have moles..it is a public space you are in so anything goes..;) if you started projects without contractual agreements between particapants you might run into problems down the road as it is..I've had a problem like that with a member of the forum recently..
funny though it seemed everyone was welcome to showup, as you keep inviting all to come. maybe you better stop promoting your DO thing that way at the forum..:rolleyes:
3dfrog...didn't know frogs ate cookies..or is it a fly cookie? |
Post by 3dfrog // Jan 25, 2008, 8:19am
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I don't know why this attack on Mark. He is doing his best to keep the project open to the community members while retaining sensitive information. Not the easiest task. It seems to me he just wanted to make clear no one discussed specifics. What's the big deal? |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 25, 2008, 8:29am
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I'm not sure if I've been in a DO meeting or not, not knowing what a DO is. :D
I went to some meetings as advertised here on the forums, was there something I was or wasn't supposed to know? heh |
Post by Scala3D // Jan 25, 2008, 8:44am
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Scala3D
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Just for clarification the sol purpose for setting up a "TeamSpeak" server was for those folks who have Vista to be able to listen and talk in these meetings....lol. Turns out that TeamSpeak did not work well on VISTA....Oh well it was worth a try. |
Post by frootee // Jan 25, 2008, 8:45am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Looks like the approach taken to protect the information discussed at the D.O. meetings is the issue here.
The simplest way to put it is this:
Of course, everyone should feel free to participate in this survey.
If you are coming to the D.O. meetings please be aware of the sensitivity of the information discussed. The reason being, these are ideas for business ventures, and it makes sense to do our best to prevent discussions related to these ideas outside the meeting.
That is pretty straightforward, and simply put. And in all honesty I have seen absolutely Zero conversations, nor any allusions, to the Sunday meetings in any forums here.
I do hope we can put this to rest, and if there are any questions or concerns, I would suggest contacting Mark directly via email or PM. Or if you prefer, contact me. I'm open to ventilation too. :) |
Post by TomG // Jan 25, 2008, 8:47am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The reason for some bad feeling here appears to be that people feel that Mark has told them what they can and cannot do (ie cannot take part in the survey, cannot do interviews). People take objection to being told what they can and can't do.
Dele here for instance feels slighted that he isn't trusted to talk to an interviewer, as he knows he can do an interview while not talking about anything that is sensitive / restricted / not for public ears. I'll be doing an interview too, with all my knowledge of tS, Caligari, and its many users - and of course I won't be disclosing details that are under NDA or even just verbal "gentlemen's agreements".
I don't think anyone would feel bad about being reminded not to get over-excited and start talking about anything and everything :) But people do feel bad if told not to take part at all, as then they feel belittled - it's as if someone is saying they are not capable / honorable enough to talk to someone without going ahead and telling things that shouldn't be told.
In the end this is just someone doing a Masters too - this is not an industry analyst or competitor who will doggedly repeat a question, all the more so the more you refuse to answer. A simple "Can't give details" I am sure will give a friendly and accepting "Of course! I understand. Now the next question."
So people have been lefting feeling that Mark's intention was not to "make clear no one discussed specifics" but instead to tell them simply not to take part at all, and this potential misunderstanding is why the feelings of conflict have arisen.
Again of course, had this been a situation that was likely to force people or trip people up into saying things they shouldn't say, I wouldn't be posting here telling people about it and asking for their participation. A friendly reminder that NDAs are not to be broken, and that on-going commercial work of a sensitive nature is not to be discussed, is more than welcome all the same!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Délé // Jan 25, 2008, 11:17am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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You articulated that very clearly Tom. Couldn't have said it better myself. :) I probably should have bit my tongue but I did get a bit worked up I guess. It just rubs me wrong when I feel that someone is telling me what I can or can't do, implying that I don't have the intellectual capability to make the decision myself or that I'm not honorable enough to keep my word. I also got upset with the implication that I and rest of the people are under some kind of Caligari NDA with regards to the meetings. That is simply a false statement and IMO is meant to intimidate, which also rubs me the wrong way. A friendly reminder that there is sensitive information not to be divulged would come have across much better. |
Post by frootee // Jan 25, 2008, 11:35am
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Thanks Dele. Point well taken.
Now. Anyone participated in an interview yet? Not me. I'd prefer an email option; I don't like talking to strangers on the phone. :) |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 25, 2008, 5:21pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I took the survey and the interview (cough) went as I described in the Blog. :D |
Post by Norm // Jan 25, 2008, 5:22pm
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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I am pretty sure there is possible misinterpretations and over reactions and such happening in this thread.
Tom is just doing his job and I suspect some folks read more into it than was intended. I have my "good" days and my "bad" days too :)
I am just hoping to return the comments to a more gentle nature and hopefully everyone can do the same. Everyone here is valued and it is not very good if we all do not respect each other.
Did I mention that forgiveness is a sub-object of respect? :) |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Jan 26, 2008, 8:06am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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I am very sorry everyone. I regret the inconsiderate nature of my words here very deeply, and I profoundy regret the very destructive and divisive effects which they have led to here.
I don't believe any further elaboration of any kind on my part could possibly eleviate the very severe damage which I started here, so this will be my last post in this thread. Having started all this I now feel that it is better that I remain both justly and unjustly hated, accused, and chastized for my words, actions, and character, than that I now add any additional fuel whatsoever to this fire, a fire which I believe we would each agree is very clearly and deeply destructive to this Community, and to Caligari.
- Mark |
Post by jamesmc // Jan 26, 2008, 8:43am
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jamesmc
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I didn't lose any sleep over it Mark. Besides, I've been inside your brain and knows what goes on in there. :)
Get those keys a typin and that mouse a squeakin - time to get to work - I mean play. :D |
Post by prodigy // Jan 26, 2008, 9:09am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Come on guys! to much preasure here.... :o
I have a joke for you guys!
Horse walks into a pub and the barman says....
Why the long face? :D
And the last one..
What's ET short for?
He's only got little legs! |
Post by Improv // Jan 26, 2008, 11:11am
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Improv
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And the last one..
What's ET short for?
He's only got little legs!
Hmmm ET- Entertainment Tonight? Especially Tamale? Enjoyable Turnips?
Energized Tasers? Extra Toffee? (Mmmm...toffee! :-) ) |
Post by kena // Jan 26, 2008, 2:58pm
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E.T. the Extra Terrestrial!
:D |
Post by frootee // Jan 26, 2008, 4:10pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Improv and Kena I think you totally missed the joke.
The punchline in white says,
He's only got little legs. :D |
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