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Caligari?...Microsoft?..Calisoft?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Caligari?...Microsoft?..Calisoft? // Roundtable
Post by Burnart // Feb 7, 2008, 3:29pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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A couple of days ago we all probably had an idea of what Caligari's core business was - 3d software. Now its been taken over by MS for its Virtual Earth project - a tangential relationship between the 2 (that is; 3d software & Virtual Earth.) If people are apprehensive and feeling pessimistic about the future it seems to me its because the core business appears to have suddenly changed. |
Post by Humdinger // Feb 7, 2008, 3:42pm
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Oh well it is the classic good news / bad news.
I feel very happy for Roman O. as I am sure this is almost all he could have hoped for with TS 7+.
The Man is driven and looks like it may really pay off, though I doubt that was Roman's number one motive.
But alas that being said it is sad as I just do not see things like extensive Morphing, Dynamic Hair and Fur, Cloth/ Soft Body Dynamics…Pose Libraries, revamped Facial Animator… etc really being part of the near future, as those items are a pain in rendering offline, never mind in real-time. (sorry I do love the morph shark demo ..but one object does not a 3d morphing community make).
I really hope it does not end this way, as we seemed so close with the possible release of 7.6 addressing many of the short comings of TS 7.5 in character animation area. I got all my 3D 'chops' on TrueSpace and I hold it and Roman responsible for getting me into creating my own 3D artwork.
Real-time has great potential, but no matter as soon as real time catches up to offline rendering- then off-line rendering will then improve to surpass it..
…it's the nature of the beast.
I was talking to a guy I know that is heavy into imagery for work and apparently once computers get fast enough real-time 3D will/would then be replaced by machines that render a series of images based on the 3d data so fast and in response to your movements that you will THINK it's real time 3D..But it's not.
He further went on to explain that real-time 3D was only created to deal with the fact that computers do/did not have the power to produce the series of rendered still images for display so quickly.
But the goal was always that sooner or later the power would be there and 3D itself would become passe. As working with the rendered series of stills is actually much easier for a computer to display once they are rendered.
Hell if I know…but I like it myself …as no matter, barring HUGE..HUGE..HUGE… polygon counts….most real-time stuff still pales to a good render …least for me it does. |
Post by Improv // Feb 7, 2008, 3:43pm
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Improv
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A couple of days ago we all probably had an idea of what Caligari's core business was - 3d software. Now its been taken over by MS for its Virtual Earth project - a tangential relationship between the 2 (that is; 3d software & Virtual Earth.) If people are apprehensive and feeling pessimistic about the future it seems to me its because the core business appears to have suddenly changed.
Yup-what a difference a day makes!;) |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 7, 2008, 5:45pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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There seems to be a real fear that tS's offline renderers will be phased out. Personally I can't see any good reason why that should be.
TrueSpace already possess, as part of it's feature set, the ability to render with Vray, LW, dribble, Kerky and so forth (don't forget virtualight!). Development means adding functionality and diversity, not subtracting it.
Look at Caligari's existing 3d spaces - a very significant proportion of those spaces are dedicated (repeat that word) dedicated, to displaying Raytraced Art!!!!
At the moment we can visit a very small collection of shared spaces. But by adding a Virtual Earth capability to trueSpace existing capabilities, you will be able to walk your realtime avatar (built and animated with tS software, textured with imaged raytraced in Vray) out of the realtime gallery dispalaying raytraced trueSpace illustrations and into an entire Virtual Reality world - built using tS modeling, textured using raytraced textures output by Vray or LW or dribble etc from trueSpace and displayed in 3d space - and entire world of virtual 3d space!
Removing raytracing and illustration capabilities from trueSpace is a no-brainer - it would be like removing windscreens from cars!
I could be wrong but if I'm right you can bet I'm going to say I told you so!!:D |
Post by Délé // Feb 7, 2008, 5:51pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I agree Wiz, the biggest speculation going on right now is that offline rendering is going away. I saw no such comment in the post by Roman. Even if the focus shifts more towards online 3d (which it has since tS7.0) I see no reason to dump offline rendering. Actually it would be advantageous to keep it. Think of how much better the virtual worlds would look with GI baked into the textures with Vray.
I see no reason why offline rendering would go away. It's useful, even in a 3d web scenario.
That aside some have even speculated that animation will go away. What? Animation, including morphing, is VERY useful in interactive online scenes. Again, I see only advantages to not only keeping, but adding to such capabilities. |
Post by chrono // Feb 7, 2008, 7:14pm
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chrono
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TS is adding to MS's Virtual Earth, not the other way around, and will be adapted to MS's requirements. So anything non-RT is completely at risk for "pruning" because of it's non-relevance to the RT environment.
For example MS's Photosynth 'virtually' removes the need for most of TS's tools & renderer's for it's Virtual Earth with it's "on-the-fly" total model construction.
http://labs.live.com/photosynth/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Live_Labs_Photosynth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p16frKJLVi0 |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 7, 2008, 8:06pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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TS is adding to MS's Virtual Earth, not the other way around, and will be adapted to MS's requirements. So anything non-RT is completely at risk for "pruning" because of it's non-relevance to the RT environment.
A fair point Chrono but it's based on the assumption that non-rt product in not relevant to the RT environment. With all due respect I think that assumption may well be unfounded.
The reason I say this? Well, I've created around half a dozen TR environments for trueSpace/truePlay real-time interactivity and every single one of them relies heavily on ray-traced, non-real-time textures to drive the realtime shaders.
Eg: I have a realtime cene I'm working on - it has a sky dome covered with a realtime image shader. The image driving that shader took two days to render in MojoWorld 3 Pro - a raytracing app. Once I had that render, complete with volumetric clouds and was able to convert the Mojo output to a spherical projection I was able to paint it on my real-time skydome - hey presto - raytraced, volumetric clouds in real time.
This is the reason why I'm reasonably confident that tS ray-tracing/illustration capabilities are here to stay. |
Post by Ambrose // Feb 7, 2008, 8:50pm
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Hi All
Lets see what happens and don't spoil another day, again.
MS bought it because of the code and how easy things are implemented.
Now if things are going to the worst, all we need to do is to setup another forum so we can continue, then all LE coders have a lot to do ;)
Everyone could send them 10$ each, and they help us out with porting all old tools over.
Then another 20$ and they start doing all those wonderful animation tools we wants.
Use the code, nothing is dead, not today not tomorow... I hope :p
I would say Roman have something to tell like early next week, maybe not monday but...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by splinters // Feb 7, 2008, 11:12pm
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splinters
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I also don't believe Caligari will drop offline rendering in the very near future but you have to ask how much of their resources they can afford to spare in developing and fixing it. It is a really small team of developer's and I am guessing that MS resources will be spent on getting the technology into Virtual Earth, not writing SDK's and Vray code..:o |
Post by Délé // Feb 8, 2008, 12:09am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Found some more interesting news, it's spreading:
http://micromiel.com/2008/02/08/microsoft-buys-caligari-corp/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/A-3D-Virtual-World-on-Top-of-Virtual-Earth-78249.shtml |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 1:14am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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This is me on my newly signed up account on Windows Live, part of the community for Live Search. :D |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 1:39am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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My temporary house until I can build a new one. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2008, 1:46am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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My temporary house until I can build a new one. :D
LOL! Hey James, looks like your car tyres are flat!! |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 2:01am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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LOL! Hey James, looks like your car tyres are flat!!
Hehe, yep! :)
Here's my first blog entry along with an area in my city called Brick Town.
http://thruput.spaces.live.com/blog/ |
Post by adriani // Feb 8, 2008, 2:41am
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adriani
Total Posts: 89
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Hi Splinters and All,
I hope you all are not affected by this, because it involves many aspects, especially The professionals who work with the program.
It is very sad, but we must expect that the Roman / Caligari has to speak.
Is sad to know the Caligari Corp has become a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation ...
and will be good NEWS if it was:
The Caligari corp became more strong in 3D than Microsoft
UNFORTUNATELY in nowadays the money and ambition speaks high ....
Monopoly or “Monopólio” is SAD...
SO We await the answers and then look calm.
best to all the community that make a good and honest work |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 2:56am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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This is what I imagine will happen in the future. Sorry, I'm a dreamer. :D
First, once Caligari Software is integrated with Live3D maps, one can go to a place and look for a store.
The Store Management and its vendors can design a store that is virtual. (i.e. - the ultimate in warehouse stores - doesn't exist but in shared space)
Example of Customer Interface - of course it could be fancier with more options, but just some thoughts that popped into my head. :)
EDIT: Posted in wrong thread before. :o |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 3:58am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I sneak into Shared Space. :D |
Post by TylerZambori // Feb 8, 2008, 4:21am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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This might be good for buying groceries....I could tell the clerk
exactly which bunch of spinach I want. wait, I would not be willing
to pay extra for that.....I'll just get in my car and go. Vegetables
are cheaper at the low-tech mexican market around the corner
anyway. They don't even have LCD monitors with commercials
for me to watch at the check out. wait, that's a good thing.... |
Post by Délé // Feb 8, 2008, 4:27am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I buy my groceries online (Simon Delivers). It's really quite convenient and caching on around here. All the food I get is always fresh and good. The prices really aren't much different then the grocery stores around here. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 4:28am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Imagine if you lived in China and was looking at CNC equipment for your factory and wanted to tour a virtual factory to see how it works?
Or, you were a scientist in Antarctica and wanted to show some other scientists what you dug out of the ice?
Or, you were a Mission Specialist on a shuttle and you needed to show an engineer a broken widget, but didn't know what it was called or how to access it?
Or, you were a physician in London and you had already catscanned a patient in 3D and wanted to go ever some techniques with your Surgeon partner in Australia?
Or, you were a game developer and just had finished modeling Jack the Reaper :D - you wanted to give it to your UV and graphic specialist who lived in another country, but first you wanted to show him/her where and how, what color, etc.
Or, you were a college professor of geology and wanted to show some 3D rock collections to twenty different class rooms at once. Each of the students to have a chance to pick up the rocks and study them.
and so on and so forth. |
Post by chrono // Feb 8, 2008, 4:31am
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chrono
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A fair point Chrono but it's based on the assumption that non-rt product in not relevant to the RT environment. With all due respect I think that assumption may well be unfounded.
Actually it's based on the fact that MS has tools available that could hyper-simplify the creation (reproduction) process. (ie Photosynth)
To be honest WIZ you seem to feel that it's TS will benefit from the ownership/partnership with MS. That's not entirely untrue, but you not seeing that TS will be rebuilt & re-purposed into a package for MS's usage. Now throw in the fact that MS's TS is now directly in competition with simple Sketch-up and it's quite easy to see that any new version of TS will barely look like any older version.
MS has a decent track record when it comes to 3D software. Just look at XSI. ;) |
Post by jayr // Feb 8, 2008, 4:37am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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MS has a decent track record when it comes to 3D software. Just look at XSI. ;)
on the thread over at CGTalk someone mentioned this, that they bought SXI with a purpose in mind, namely, to sell NT as a platform for 3D production. It worked. When they had what they wanted they sold it on.
I'm just guessing but the same thing could happen with truespace, when they get what they want from it they could sell it on. Maybe then we'll all get what we want, a stronger 3D package in ti's own right and a 3d presence on the web/ collaboration features. But i have to say i'm not optimistc in this regard.
Please someone tell us something solid so we can stop this speculation |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2008, 4:37am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Imagine a 3D store that has an inventory of everything in a store identical to the real store.
That inventory is linked to a database and the 3D item is linked via scan tag on the real item. Each time an item passes a thresh hold (shelf edge) the item is counted as depleted from stock and can be adjusted if it sold, returned or perhaps stolen.
If the location of the 3D item passes the threshhold of the store without the scan tag being adjusted, then security can be notified. :)
A manager can walk through his/her virtual store and compare inventory, shelve stocking and get a general idea what's going on with the store, even if he/she is 1000 miles away.
Just some thoughts. :0 |
Post by Délé // Feb 8, 2008, 4:42am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Better yet, a customer could see what's in stock in the store before they drive 50 miles to get it. |
Post by behzad // Feb 8, 2008, 4:43am
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behzad
Total Posts: 173
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people getting lazy, getting fat and getting no excersise. Obesity and diabetic setting in. |
Post by Délé // Feb 8, 2008, 4:45am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Lazy or efficient...depends how you use it. Either way it's already happening, 3d or not. |
Post by TylerZambori // Feb 8, 2008, 4:50am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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I buy my groceries online (Simon Delivers). It's really quite convenient and caching on around here. All the food I get is always fresh and good. The prices really aren't much different then the grocery stores around here.
But not like my mexican market. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2008, 6:42am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Oil prices going up - easier to stay home and shop - no chance of running up a panel beating bill
@Chrono - Re "To be honest WIZ you seem to feel that it's TS will benefit from the ownership/partnership with MS. That's not entirely untrue, but you not seeing that TS will be rebuilt & re-purposed into a package for MS's usage." I don't think you can know that's what's going to happen (anymore than I know it's not).
I do feel it most likely that tS will benefit from being a subsidiary to Microsoft - in fact I think it's probably inevitable due to the nature of subsidiary business practice.
Not long ago the New Zealand National Bank was bought as a subsidiary to the ASB (Australian Savings Bank). National Bank customers freaked out - because they didn't understand how subsidiary companies work. In reality some different people got to sit in some different boardrooms, the ASB was able to take and adapt some of the National Banks successful processes into their own operation and National Bank customers could suddenly withdraw their hard earned cash from twice as many cash machines! ASB has owned the National Bank for ages and the National Bank still operates as it always has.
Caligari was a successful business prior to the MS deal - it's not just bad business it's truly silly to mess with that.
I suspect a likely outcome is this - trueSpace continues as before - with maybe an extra chair in the boardroom - Caligari carries on doing what it does because that's what it's good at. MS gives them a big wodge of cash to hire some more code busters and Caligari gives the Virtual Earth team some discs full of source code which the VE guys proceed to develop. (Oh yeah and Roman gets a new car!)
Now I don't know that that's what's going to happen anymore than anyone here can say that it's not - but it sounds more realistic to me than pointlessly throwing away a successful and innovative business entity or arbitrarily removing functionality from that businesses product. Subsidiary business deals simply don't work that way.
I was a courier driver for a local transport firm in the South of England for a while. The company got bought out by a bigger company. The only thing that changed was the logo on the side of my vehicle - oh yeah and I got a pay rise.
I also worked for a contracting company supplying fault location and repair services to the local Telecom copper network. The company was bought out by a seriously massive French company that made nuclear reactors and high speed bullet trains - what changed? The logo on my van. Nothing else.
I also worked for the largest local electricity retailer in their call centre. They got bought out by a Canadian firm who also bought half of the other electricity retailers in the country - what changed? We moved to a bigger better newer call centre - got better billing software and a much nicer lunch room - oh yeah, and the Logos on the stationary. All those companies are still doing exactly what they did before they became subsidiaries to bigger companies.
I'm not just being Pollyanna here or wearing rose tinted sunnies - I'm making reasoned deductions based on my own life experience. I could also be totally wrong - it's been known to happen! |
Post by aidanodr // Feb 8, 2008, 7:36am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Hi Guys,
Some news items from the blogisphere:
http://blog.donburnett.com/2008/02/another-big-win-for-microsoft-caligari.html
"Besides Virtual Earth I (for one) would like to see TrueSpace become Microsoft Expression 3D.. Who knows, love to see that announced at Mix 08 (no I haven't heard anything officially). It does fit in well with WPF 3D though.. We can only hope"
==========================
http://industry.slashgeo.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/08/1235226&from=rss
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http://www.portal.itproportal.com/articles/2008/02/08/microsoft-nabs-3d-modelling-specialist-caligari/
"It is rumoured that Caligari's acquisition will speed up the development of a Second life type concept using Virtual Earth and integrate it will the Silverlight framework."
==========================
http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2008/02/microsoft-acqui.html
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Aidan |
Post by JakeB // Feb 8, 2008, 7:42am
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JakeB
Total Posts: 19
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Many people here have mentioned that they have not heard from
anyone at Caligari concerning the effect this acquisition will have
on the software and what "wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation"
means to the future of Caligari.
I have constructed and de-constructed many legal statements in my
career and I think Roman's announcement is clear about what to expect
from Caligari in the future.
(1) "Caligari Corp has become a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation"
What does this mean:
A company that is legally controlled by another company having 50% or more
of its common shares. A parent company may believe that having a subsidiary
is preferable to full integration for taxation purposes, or may allow local participation
if the subsidiary is in another country.
The 100% of the common stocks in Caligari are now owned/controlled by Microsoft.
There may be prefered or special shares that are held by others but the entire
direction of the company is ultimately controlled by Microsoft. It may be that Roman
has been kept on as President or as a special advisor. Roman must be careful
about any forward looking statements which could impact Microsoft. We may not
know any specifics about the company until Microsoft files the details with the SEC
since Caligari was a private company unless they have been vetted by Microsoft.
(2) "new opportunities for each one of you as part of the Virtual Earth community"
What does it mean:
Caligari will continue as an entity and it focus development on providing tools to
the Virtual Earth community. What this does not discuss is tools not related to
those activities. Since these "other" tools already exist they will continue on
into the foreseeable future. Since they will not add to Virtual Earth community,
very little, if any, resources would be allocated to them since they are detrimental
to overall development costs in time and dollars. The question you could ask
yourself is what case can be made for tools such as VRay to be used by the
Virtual Earth community. If the answer is none, then it would not be rational as
a business to continue development of them. At most you would fix existing
bugs and eventually phase it out of future iteration of the software.
(3) "You know me and my ambitions for trueSpace and web-based 3D collaboration"
What does it mean:
Roman has said for years that online 3D development is where his interest is.
The focus on truePlay is a demonstration of his commitment to that direction.
This doesn't imply a negative view towards offline 3D development, but simply
a lesser interest in its direction. In my opinion, from observed facts, Microsoft
has the same mindset as Roman on the future of 3D development.
(4) "only now we will have more resources to rely on, larger market to consider"
What does it mean:
trueSpace as a tool for Virtual Earth community 3D development will have to
be made more accessable to people not specializing in this field of endeavor.
Microsoft is a company that sells on volume (including it subsidiaries). It builds
products aimed at reaching the most customers. If this product is meant to
compete with a similar Google product, then it will have to appeal to a much broader
audience than it currently does. For year reviewers have said that trueSpace
was a great tool with a steep learning curve. That curve will have to disappear
if Microsoft is going to be involved.
I have read many complaints about Microsoft products, but I have never read
that they build interfaces too difficult to learn without a manual guiding you
every step of the way.
I would be interested to read any responses that believe I have misinterpreted
Roman's announcement. |
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