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Caligari?...Microsoft?..Calisoft?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
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Caligari?...Microsoft?..Calisoft? // Roundtable
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 7, 2008, 2:49am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Paul - re - "I am sure that Wizard and 3DVD were jumping for joy at the news." The news that really got me jumping for joy was that a gentleman in California liked my trueSpace work so much he sent me a copy of Lightwave 9.3 for my birthday! That's a top-line film and TV package of some distinction - so if trueSpace does get swallowed by the great MS whale I'm still happy either way.
As I've said I think it unlikely and for every single one of us (Roman and Bill G. included) only time will tell. All things being equall I figure theres a 50% chance of this move turning trueSpace to gold and a 50% chance of it turning to custard - it's my nature to be optimistic for the future so I'm hoping for gold! |
Post by Délé // Feb 7, 2008, 3:01am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I can understand some apprehension, I think we all have some, but I have to admit that I'm surprised at some of the blatant cynicism. Doesn't Roman have any credibility in this community? I've always felt that he tried to make tS better and open opportunities for tS users. Doesn't he at least deserve the benefit of the doubt? Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that he actually took the time to think this through and has the best interest of tS at heart. I guess his actions in the past have led me to believe that he's a smart well intentioned guy. Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how this plays out.
Cynical speculation and shots at his character are a bit premature IMO. |
Post by splinters // Feb 7, 2008, 3:02am
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splinters
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Wize words there Wizard but I am curious; if he liked your tS stuff so much why did he send you Lightwave? I am not against moving to another package I just dread learning a new program..I got to be very quick (and therefore productive) in tS as you probably know.
Still, a great present there. I am eyeing up Hexagon and Carrara at the moment as I already own them so perhaps they are the way to go in the short term. An upgrade to Carrara 6 is very affordable from the free version 5 I got....like you say, who knows. Certainly not me...:o |
Post by Grommit // Feb 7, 2008, 3:13am
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Grommit
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My experience of MS products is that they work... ok..., but are massively overpriced and simply not worth the money. With the exception of Windows itself, I'm moving steadily over to Open Source software, as it's such good quality. And, more important, I can afford it.
My fear for TS is that
1) if collaboration is the name of the game, I agree that those like me who are only really interested in offline rendering will likely lose out.
2) the cost of the software will suddenly jump into a league where I don't stand a chance of remaining a TS customer. I've only managed it so far because of Caligari's kind offer to spread payments. You don't get that kind of consideration from behemoth companies. MS will charge whatever they think the market can stand, which would leave me firmly frozen out.
While I completely understand this move from Caligari's point of view, I am deeply disappointed. :( Of all the people to sell out to, MS is the very last group I would have wanted to take over. I have loved Caligari and TS for it's independence, small company attitude and community. My first thoughts are that all of these great points will go clean out of the window. I do so hope I'm wrong here.
I do hope there will be some official feedback from Caligari very soon to give us some reassurances. I don't want to have to learn another 3d app all over again either. And it would probably have to be Blender too. |
Post by splinters // Feb 7, 2008, 3:15am
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splinters
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I can understand some apprehension, I think we all have some, but I have to admit that I'm surprised at some of the blatant cynicism. Doesn't Roman have any credibility in this community? I've always felt that he tried to make tS better and open opportunities for tS users. Doesn't he at least deserve the benefit of the doubt? Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that he actually took the time to think this through and has the best interest of tS at heart. I guess his actions in the past have led me to believe that he's a smart well intentioned guy. Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how this plays out.
Cynical speculation and shots at his character are a bit premature IMO.
Cynicism yes Dele, but I am not sure that anyone has taken a shot at his character. Roman never sold Caligari before and it was rumoured that he has had a few good offers. Surely the only real worry around here is the ownership of Caligari by Microsoft. I trust Roman and his judgement but when MS own 100% of Caligari just who gets the last say in what happens?
Still, enough speculation. Nothing more to add until there are more details announced. |
Post by Délé // Feb 7, 2008, 3:21am
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Délé
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I guess I kind of took the implication that he's cashing out and ditching us as shot at his character.
I do understand that MS now owns 100% of Caligari, but who's to say there weren't stipulations in the sales contract? I'm not saying that's the case, I have no idea, but it's certainly possible isn't it? |
Post by Steinie // Feb 7, 2008, 3:28am
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Steinie
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Cynicism for a Company (Microsoft) that can sell more Apples because of Vista?
No not me...
I'll leave Roman out of this. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 7, 2008, 3:44am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Wize words there Wizard but I am curious; if he liked your tS stuff so much why did he send you Lightwave? I am not against moving to another package I just dread learning a new program..I got to be very quick (and therefore productive) in tS as you probably know.
Still, a great present there. I am eyeing up Hexagon and Carrara at the moment as I already own them so perhaps they are the way to go in the short term. An upgrade to Carrara 6 is very affordable from the free version 5 I got....like you say, who knows. Certainly not me...:o
He's fairly new to 3d stuff and has little time available to learn an app the size of LW. He didn't want it to go to waste and figured with my (trueSpace) experience it would be easier for me to learn.
Re Hexagon and Carrara - there was a lot of speculation that those apps would dry up and disappear once Daz3d bought them but by all accounts their still going strong.
Heck if I was Bill Gates I'd probably buy Daz (the whole company) as well!!
I'm also a little puzzled at those who appear to have such resistance to learning a new app - if nothing else trueSpace can teach anyone the fundamentals of 3d and the principles are much the same for any 3d application - although granted tS interface is pretty easy to learn and sometimes the challenge is actually unlearning ingrained habits. I've been in my new house for over 4 months now and I still look for the garage light switch on the side were it was in the old garage!! |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 7, 2008, 3:46am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I can understand some apprehension, I think we all have some, but I have to admit that I'm surprised at some of the blatant cynicism. Doesn't Roman have any credibility in this community? I've always felt that he tried to make tS better and open opportunities for tS users. Doesn't he at least deserve the benefit of the doubt? Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that he actually took the time to think this through and has the best interest of tS at heart. I guess his actions in the past have led me to believe that he's a smart well intentioned guy. Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how this plays out.
Hear Hear - well said Délé! Why couldn't I have said it that well? :o;):D |
Post by aidanodr // Feb 7, 2008, 4:19am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Hi Guys,
Have'nt chimed in here in a while. Have been a TS user since a good while back right up to purchasing TS 7.5.
Here is some more cynicism for you:
This is all about Google, Google Earth and Virtual Worlds online. Potentially Truespace is now a weapon in MS'es arsenal in the war that is brewing between MS and Google on these fronts.
I would put a small bet on TS being steered toward this environment - online 3D. To become an app to create avatars, online world content and the like. Also geared toward the average MS Office type, non3D, nontech, office/home user. Hence development on offline more serious toolsets may cease or at least be on to the back burner. OR the best of all worlds - Two different development streams offline / online .. but some how I doubt this.
Roman said in the Captains Blog: "TS is now WHOLLY owned by MS" - this normally means 100%, so what control HAS Roman actually got in TS'es future development and direction? This is not a snipe, its a valid pragmatic question.
However I will say - CONGRATS to Roman from his standpoint, he has developed this app for a long time and well earns these financial rewards. All the best to Roman in the new future .. whatever the direction this is.
About this learning other app thing - If you have been using TS in any way you are now well equipped to use any other 3D app. I currently also use MODO [ Animation Yes, but No Char animation yet, coming in v4.01 I would say ] - very nice app AND it has a full sculpting toolset.
Blender is due a big UI make over with v2.50 - in development.
I also invested the huge sum of $99 into the fully working, non crippled version of Houdini Master - the only Caveat - for personal use, but then alot of TS users are hobbiests, so this should suit. Beware though - a hugely different approach, but very rewarding. Excellent training at Digital Tutors.
And dont forget the Silo's and the Hexagons.
My two cents
Aidan |
Post by Heidi // Feb 7, 2008, 4:25am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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I can understand some apprehension, I think we all have some, but I have to admit that I'm surprised at some of the blatant cynicism. Doesn't Roman have any credibility in this community? I've always felt that he tried to make tS better and open opportunities for tS users. Doesn't he at least deserve the benefit of the doubt? Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that he actually took the time to think this through and has the best interest of tS at heart. I guess his actions in the past have led me to believe that he's a smart well intentioned guy. Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see how this plays out.
I agree with Dele. For over 20 years, Roman has raised TS like a child. In that time he's always done what's best for Caligari. This could not have been an easy decision.
As for the apprehensions of absorption into a larger corporation, the 3D examples that I'm familiar with...Poser, Cararra, Bryce...still have their user-friendly interfaces and still support and listen to their user communities. The difference is that they've been able to expand their scope and capabilities.
I think this will give Caligari a greater opportunity to expand capability and compatiblily.
The fact that Caligari is now a wholly-owned subsidiary means it retains its autonomy, it's not just being absorbed.
Microsoft has the clout to pick and choose whatever applications they want to integrate and support. Out of all the applications out there, they selected Caligari. Since they're also talking with DAZ, they could have easily gone with Hex or Cararra.
Also, since they selected Caligari for what it has to offer, I sort of doubt that they intend to come in and try to take it apart. |
Post by jayr // Feb 7, 2008, 4:34am
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jayr
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....I would put a small bet on TS being steered toward this environment - online 3D. To become an app to create avatars, online world content and the like. Also geared toward the average MS Office type, non3D, nontech, office/home user. Hence development on offline more serious toolsets may cease or at least be on to the back burner. OR the best of all worlds - Two different development streams offline / online .. but some how I doubt this....
Aidan
What i'd like to see from this is takeover is sort of what you've said Aidan. a cut-down truespace for non3D types AND a full fat, bug free powerhouse truspace for the rest of us. If that happens i'll be a happy man but untill some more news comes out i'm not optimistic |
Post by aidanodr // Feb 7, 2008, 4:36am
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aidanodr
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IAs for the apprehensions of absorption into a larger corporation, the 3D examples that I'm familiar with...Poser, Cararra, Bryce...still have their user-friendly interfaces and still support and listen to their user communities. The difference is that they've been able to expand their scope and capabilities.
Hi Heidi,
The above apps were taken over as going concerns, but if you read the Microsoft Virtual Earth Blog entry here:
http://virtualearth.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!2BBC66E99FDCDB98!11432.entry
You should see that TS has been bought for a SPECIFIC use, it is being absorbed - yes, but it is not being absorbed as just another app so that MS can get into the Commercial 3D market, they tried this with SOFTIMAGE a while back and spat it back out. It is being absorbed specifically into the Virtual World area. This area DOES NOT NEED the same toolset as Commercial 3D applications use.
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by Heidi // Feb 7, 2008, 4:42am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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The fact that Caligari is being incorporated as a subsidiary means that it is and will be a "going concern". It is not just being absorbed. A subsidiary retains its autonomy from the parent company.
The fact that Caligari is teamed with the Virtual Earth group infers collaboration in that area of development. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 7, 2008, 4:47am
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jamesmc
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Some are feeling this perhaps... :) |
Post by aidanodr // Feb 7, 2008, 4:52am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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The fact that Caligari is being incorporated as a subsidiary means that it is and will be a "going concern". It is not just being absorbed. A subsidiary retains its autonomy from the parent company.
The fact that Caligari is teamed with the Virtual Earth group infers collaboration in that area of development.
Simple question WHY? So MS are now getting into the 3D Commercial App market? I dont think so. This is MS v Google, Virtual Earth v Google Earth. By the fact that the announcement is at the Virtual earth blog and not in general MS acquisition news should say something.
I admire your optimism that TS will now be developed beyond all our dreams as the commercial app to beat all ( which I think you infer in previous post up top ). BUT somehow I doubt same BUT if i am wrong I have no problem eating humble pie,
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by Steinie // Feb 7, 2008, 4:54am
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Steinie
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Granted some really awesome things can come out of this too.
DX10 support sooner rather then later. A whole army of programmers. Potential jobs for the Artist here. There are good things that could come from this.
We really need to find out if TS7.6 is still alive. That is all we really care about. The direction of the Application has been known about for a couple years now. (Just read the Caligari Goals it clearly states WEB in it's future)
It is a simple question to Caligari and we really have a right to know. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 7, 2008, 4:58am
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prodigy
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Bob, you remember what means NDA??? :rolleyes: |
Post by jayr // Feb 7, 2008, 5:08am
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jayr
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i'm actually starting to feel sorry for the guys who put the link from the Live Earth site to this forum, people come here looking to find an exciting announcement and stumble onto this thread :o |
Post by Heidi // Feb 7, 2008, 5:13am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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Simple question WHY? So MS are now getting into the 3D Commercial App market? I dont think so. This is MS v Google, Virtual Earth v Google Earth. By the fact that the announcement is at the Virtual earth blog and not in general MS acquisition news should say something.
I'm not denying MS vs Google with Virtual Earth vs Google Earth.
To your question of why they want to get into the 3D app market...Virtual Earth has the capability of uploading 3D models into their "earth" environment as well as the ability for people to share space in that environment. Caligari has been developing realtime rendering capabilities and collaborative space. There's a reasonable overlap for collaboration there.
The fact that the MS announcement is at the Virtual Earth blog and not in the general MS acquisition news says to me that Caligari is not considered an acquisition, but rather a collaborative partner for Virtual Earth. |
Post by aidanodr // Feb 7, 2008, 5:20am
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aidanodr
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Thanks for the clarification Heidi.
Im trying to be devils advocate. Also trying to see the bigger picture. Is this all about the future of the net is 3D virtual Worlds? Why is MS and Google after this whole area? Is this the new perceived direction? If so will it last? Have enough people online got sufficient bandwidth for all of this? Alot of people still on dialup and 2mb Broadband.
Questions like that to broaden the topic,
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 7, 2008, 5:25am
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jamesmc
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I imagine businesses will be the first to take advantage of the merger, then power users (if not simultaneously) and then the average consumer.
Building virtual worlds to do "stuff" in will be exciting.
So many possibilities, I can't even focus on it. |
Post by behzad // Feb 7, 2008, 5:39am
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We should all thank Caligari for giving us the tools to learn 3d. Nothing stays the same so what he has done was for his best interest.
Like mentioned here there are so many other alternatives that are affordable so I would not worry about learning another software just in case my needs are not meet with TS.
I have seen great artists over the years make that jump and move on to other programs. It is always good not to put all your eggs in one basket so start learning other tools. ;)
Hell when Autodesk bought Mudbox I thought it was a bad move, but future can only tell what they will do with the next release. Same here if you got time on your hands and can wait for news then all the power to you. There was a dry spell for me between version 6-7 that is when I left. So if you can stick around and at the same time learn other programs then that would be ideal. |
Post by splinters // Feb 7, 2008, 5:45am
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splinters
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Bob, you remember what means NDA??? :rolleyes:
Your new avatar worries me Prodigy, why are you out of service...and why are you reminding Bob about the NDA? I am not under a NDA but know more than I should about tS7.6 for a non-beta. However, I am not at liberty to say due to the trust placed in me when creating new icons etc. but I genuinely know nothing of it's future in light of this announcement.
@ Heidi, how can you be sure that Caligari are to have Autonomy, they are 'wholly owned' i.e. 100% by MS? I can see no law that says so just the following;
"Subsidiaries are separate, distinct legal entities for the purposes of taxation and regulation. For this reason, they differ from divisions, which are businesses fully integrated within the main company, and not legally or otherwise distinct from it". |
Post by jayr // Feb 7, 2008, 5:58am
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Your new avatar worries me Prodigy, why are you out of service...and why are you reminding Bob about the NDA? I am not under a NDA but know more than I should about tS7.6 for a non-beta. However, I am not at liberty to say due to the trust placed in me when creating new icons etc. but I genuinely know nothing of it's future in light of this announcement.
maybe another annocement is about to be made. Seems funny noone from caligari has said anything so far, nda or no nda i would have expected at least a 'calm down' by now |
Post by stan // Feb 7, 2008, 6:00am
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stan
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when ts7.0 came out there was talk about it competing with the big boys..[max , maya?]..will that still be one of the goals.. adding vray was a move in that direction wasn't it?
it all just makes me wonder..money talks.. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 7, 2008, 6:02am
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jamesmc
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Maybe Caligari hasn't been give an code name in order to release information yet. Microsoft loves those code names you know.
May I suggest "Courteous Cartography"? :D
or "MapManners" |
Post by Steinie // Feb 7, 2008, 6:03am
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Steinie
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I hear you Stan, but in a weird one day announcement Caligari just became the "biggest boy" |
Post by TylerZambori // Feb 7, 2008, 6:04am
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TylerZambori
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I'm not denying MS vs Google with Virtual Earth vs Google Earth.
To your question of why they want to get into the 3D app market...Virtual Earth has the capability of uploading 3D models into their "earth" environment as well as the ability for people to share space in that environment. Caligari has been developing realtime rendering capabilities and collaborative space. There's a reasonable overlap for collaboration there.
The fact that the MS announcement is at the Virtual Earth blog and not in the general MS acquisition news says to me that Caligari is not considered an acquisition, but rather a collaborative partner for Virtual Earth.
Sorry, but it most certainly is an acquisition. |
Post by frootee // Feb 7, 2008, 6:05am
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frootee
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I'm not denying MS vs Google with Virtual Earth vs Google Earth.
To your question of why they want to get into the 3D app market...Virtual Earth has the capability of uploading 3D models into their "earth" environment as well as the ability for people to share space in that environment. Caligari has been developing realtime rendering capabilities and collaborative space. There's a reasonable overlap for collaboration there.
The fact that the MS announcement is at the Virtual Earth blog and not in the general MS acquisition news says to me that Caligari is not considered an acquisition, but rather a collaborative partner for Virtual Earth.
I think you Nailed it here Heidi. Thank You.
It would be kind of hard to find a virtual space online enjoyable if we could only use 'meager cubes, spheres and snowcones' for that space. Hence, high quality modelling tools such as those available in truespace on Workspace side (Froo ducks the rotten tomato :D ) and the ModelSide. And BTW... we will need more than this 5 MB per site to really make it rock.
Typically in the software life cycle we add capability, not take away working capability i.e. an offline renderer. So I seriously doubt it is worth the time and effort to remove this capability. That sounds like a waste of money to me.
Are there enough people that have high bandwidth? I think so. 56k modems, well, sorry. Don't know what say about that. Upgrade or be very patient with downloads.
25 years ago if I asked anyone, what is a web developer? Everyone would say, a spider. Not now. They are everywhere. Web devs I mean, not spiders. :)
Yes there is a major opportunity for 3d web development. Yeah I know about Web3D. Sounds like that was a good idea before its time, due to technology limitations. That limitation is not present now.
If you are interested in Collaboration, come to the Sunday Developer's Outreach meeting. That's what Mark has been working so hard at, for months now.
Froo / Jason |
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