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Roman, Caligari ... fess up, stop the smoke and daggers, lets have it!
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Roman, Caligari ... fess up, stop the smoke and daggers, lets have it! // Roundtable
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 12, 2008, 11:27am
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mykyl1966
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Look at this link and start from 1996 onwards. First step and no real sign that it was forgotten ever since. I am sure I read elswhere even more about this but perhaps thats been edited.
http://www.caligari.com/company/timelinenew.asp?Subcate=Company&SubV=Timeline
Mike R |
Post by Steinie // Feb 12, 2008, 11:43am
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Steinie
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This is their Mission Statement
"Caligari's mission is to develop collaborative 3D technology that enables participants to learn, work and play online."
It has stated this for years. Check out my fears back on 9/26/2006
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=16191&postcount=6 |
Post by spyfrog // Feb 12, 2008, 11:46am
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spyfrog
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Look at this link and start from 1996 onwards. First step and no real sign that it was forgotten ever since. I am sure I read elswhere even more about this but perhaps thats been edited.
http://www.caligari.com/company/timelinenew.asp?Subcate=Company&SubV=Timeline
Mike R
Here I see that TS3 was for 3D on line content, or VRML.
None of the other releases there mentions 3D web.
And remember how big the VRML become.... |
Post by Stem // Feb 12, 2008, 12:00pm
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Stem
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Well, I can see this thread going the same as the Caligari/MS thread.
I did stay out of that, but I think, even as what could be surmised as from a new user, that all TS license owners will have concern.
I did take up the new years offer to purchase TS7.5 and Vray,(I have supported in the past with various earlier versions purchased).. this was mentioned many time as being an excellent offer, and at the time I did agree,.. but this was from the point of view (to me) of the future development as shown in the "Captain`s blog".
I would certainly not expect that TS7.6 will not be released, with any bug fixes released thereafter, the same for Vray. If this is done, then I certainly have no problem, as I will have what I expected (perceived by the Captains blog).
If this is not done, and TS just digresses off to web3d, then I will be unhappy, but will simply trash TS off my system, then kick myself a little for not spending my cash on a product that delivers what is stated. |
Post by prodigy // Feb 12, 2008, 12:40pm
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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My 2 cents..
11028
In god we trust...
:) |
Post by spacekdet // Feb 12, 2008, 12:51pm
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spacekdet
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Somewhat appropriate, as it is Abraham Lincoln's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln) birthday today.
(This post contains 100% off-topic material. Enjoy!) |
Post by prodigy // Feb 12, 2008, 12:57pm
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prodigy
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Lol.. was unexpected :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 12, 2008, 8:58pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Somewhat appropriate, as it is Abraham Lincoln's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln) birthday today.
(This post contains 100% off-topic material. Enjoy!)
WooHoo! Another Aquarian!
Please try and be calm folks - Caligari are busy adjusting to new business arrangements. Until those arrangements are confirmed and set in place they simply cannot say anything. Suppose they issued a statement prematurely, the customer base goes off and acts on that information, only to find two weeks later that it's incorrect! That would bad communication!
The Caligari folk are still working. I'm in regular contact with TomG and I don't think I'm breaching any confidences when I tell you that he has not given me any indication that I should be concerned - and in fact has mentioned in passing working on the tS 7.6 beta as are the rest of the Beta team.
If tS 7.6 was going to be canceled or altered significantly from what we've been told, I doubt very much that anyone would be continuing to work on it.
Remember that if trueSpace is to be used as a tool for the web, 3d or otherwise, it MUST contain the raytracing and rendering capabilities it already has. That is why they are there in the first place!
I've not seen a single logical reason to suspect that the '3d art' aspect of trueSpace will be discontinued and plenty of reasons to continue to build and enhance it.
To be the application that Roman refers to ("collaborative 3D technology that enables participants to learn, work and play online") it must include the tools (non-realtime, Raytracing rendering capability that it already has or better) to do the job. Viewed dispassionately, there are far more reasons for maintaining and improving that graphic functionality than there are for removing it.
As Prodigy pointed out, that little 'or' between Romans statement "..creating 3d art OR interactive graphics content for the “age of web” says it all. This is not a situation of 'either/or' it's both. I can't see how it's possible to have an app that does Graphics Content for the web that does not include the capacity to make 3d Art.
Like everyone else I would like to hear a definitive statement, but I'm not interested in any statement that is not definite - if that means I need to wait for a while then I'm happy to wait. Believe me, I'm looking forward to that definitive statement as much as anyone here - and that's partly because I'm looking forward to being able to say 'See? I told you so'! |
Post by Stem // Feb 12, 2008, 9:43pm
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Stem
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Suppose they issued a statement prematurely, the customer base goes off and acts on that information, only to find two weeks later that it's incorrect!I made purchase of TS7.5 based on statement, then I find a few weeks later that the statement could possibly be incorrect.
Should I need to wait to see if "maybe" bugs will be addressed? or if what was stated will still happen?
Where is customer support/relations in this? |
Post by Ambrose // Feb 13, 2008, 12:27am
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Ambrose
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Amazing!!!
Do you guys also force your dentist to say how many teeths he's going to fix, before you go there!?
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by TigreStripe // Feb 13, 2008, 1:15am
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TigreStripe
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Uh...well. I don't know about anybody else. But I do actually force the dentist to tell me how many teeth he's going to fix.
Since I'm the one paying for it. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 13, 2008, 3:46am
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W!ZARD
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I made purchase of TS7.5 based on statement, then I find a few weeks later that the statement could possibly be incorrect.
Should I need to wait to see if "maybe" bugs will be addressed? or if what was stated will still happen?
Where is customer support/relations in this?
So, what are you saying? You would prefer be told some thing that 'might' be true and 'might not' be true rather than be told nothing until you can be told something definite?
Also, did you make the purchase of tS7.5 based on a statement or on your interpretation of a statement? - they are not always the same thing.
Your point is a little hard to discuss without more details but I would suggest that 'if' Caligari did in fact make a statement that is demonstrably untrue then you should not be talking about it here, you should be talking to your lawyer and sueing their Caligarian asses for false advertising - I'm sure MicroSoft can afford to pay any damages then you could afford any 3d software you wanted. ;)
Lastly, we live in an entropic universe - if you don't know what that means, look it up because understanding entropy will save you from a lot of dissappointment in life! Any product, any product at all, will have inherant faults, bugs, glitches etc. There is no such thing as perfection, particularly in complex systems like software. The more complex a thing is the more likely it is to have bugs - which is probably why there is no market demand for second hand Space Shuttles!!
I mention this because all software has bugs, some which are fixable and some which aren't. If any person buys any product expecting it to be perfect sooner or later they will find out the real world is not like that - that's why we have product recalls. It's also why companies avoid saying anything until they can be as sure as possible about what they are saying.
To quote Quantum Physicist Niels Bohr "Prediction is very hard to do, especially about the future". Any statement made with good faith can only be true (whatever that means) at the time it's made. I could tell you with all sincerity that next year I'm going to climb Everest then get hit by a taxi and spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair - does that make my statement wrong? Or untrue? Or a lie? No - the statement was true at the time in light of the situation as seen at that time.
@ Tigrestripe - Re:" I do actually force the dentist to tell me how many teeth he's going to fix" - What? Before he's looked in your mouth? Dude, you are one badassed customer - glad I'm not your dentist!:D |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 13, 2008, 4:19am
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jamesmc
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Dead Horse - Beaten
Rode hard and put away wet... |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 13, 2008, 7:20am
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mykyl1966
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Wizard, Even I was expecting confirmed bugs to be fixed in 7.51 but found they were left in. So I would have thought it reasonable NOT to have to PAY for a bugfix to main components in a 7.6 update.
The thread is here and refers to 7.5 as it stood. The bug was confirmed yet is still there in 7.51. Both myself and Jay were waiting for a fix to the problem and not just a workaround.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=2871&page=3
In case you don't want to read through the entire thread here is what Tom posted.
Adding that a confirmed bug has been found here too by the devs, just so everyone knows you aren't going crazy in trying to get this to work with no luck so far There is an issue here, thanks for the feedback and info everyone!
The method below will still work btw, though as noted we're not proposing that as a permanent solution of course.
Thanks!
Tom
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by Stem // Feb 13, 2008, 8:11am
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So, what are you saying? You would prefer be told some thing that 'might' be true and 'might not' be true rather than be told nothing until you can be told something definite?
Also, did you make the purchase of tS7.5 based on a statement or on your interpretation of a statement? - they are not always the same thing.Do you read the "Captains Blog"? Should that need interpretation?
such as:-
truespace7.6 will introduce vertex animation, morphing tools for facial animation, blendable morph targets as well as new workspace modeling tools and faster speed in modeling.
I am pleased to report that TS7.6 development is right on target, going smooth as a silkBut unable to give any clue as to the expected target date?
I also note that you like to attempt to belittle members and/or their posts, very sad. |
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 13, 2008, 9:38am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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My 2 cents..
11028
In god we trust...
:)
Prodigy, mate, I'm floored! That's an amazing piece of work. I wish I had your skills. |
Post by Paul Boland // Feb 13, 2008, 9:52am
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Paul Boland
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If as seems to be the case, Roman and the rest of the crew are busy sorting things out, having meetings etc then I doubt they have any time to really think of how to reply to a community where every syllable is being analyzed and pulled apart.
They would need to go over and over a piece of text again and again checking, double checking then triple checking that it said what was needed without someone here seeing something that is NOT actually there.
Wait and see what happens. Give them time to work out a proper statement as and when they can. DON'T give them more pressure than they must already be under.
Mike, I'm not looking to put any pressure on Caligari, but the fact is they are putting it on us by leaving us in the dark. If indeed rendering in TrueSpace is safe, then a statement that would put all these fears to rest and couldn't be misread would be something like:
"Hi Folks. Just to confirm that TrueSpace's rendering side is indeed safe. The future of this part of TrueSpace isn't going to change. But yes, we are going to be adding 3D Web functionality and tools in TrueSpace so all can benefit."
But we haven't got that 100% undisputable reassurance and that's worrying.
If you are in the middle of a project then continue to finish it. The next version of TS doesn't or shouldn't be a factor of anything you are currently working on.
True and I am indeed doing so. Projects that I am working on currently are still under development.
BUT... I have two projects that were just about to begin development in TrueSpace 7.51 but this news has caused me to halt that beginning. See, one of these two is a long term project and if TrueSpace 7 is the last version of TrueSpace as we know it, then I'd rather not use it for this project in question. I want to work with a tool that I know will have the support and future development that I'll need. So because of this silence from Caligari, two of my projects are up in the air. All the paper work is done, I'm now ready to begin the 3D work but that can't happen till I know what the future holds for TrueSpace.
So I would rather hear from Caligari SOONER rather then later. Let us know what the future holds so I can either begin work on these projects in TrueSpace or begin to look for a 3D software tool that I like and will carry these projects into the future. It's very frustrating to be ready to begin work on something but being held back because of future uncertainty. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 13, 2008, 9:54am
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Igor K Handel
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Well at least now I know why I haven't seen a Space Shuttle in a car boot sale for ages! I did wonder :p
IK |
Post by JakeB // Feb 13, 2008, 11:16am
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Hi Paul,
"So because of this silence from Caligari, two of my projects are up in the air.
All the paper work is done, I'm now ready to begin the 3D work but that can't
happen till I know what the future holds for TrueSpace."
I know it has been mentioned on other threads, but I think it is worth repeating.
If these projects are a potential business opportunities, then it would seem to
be worth your while to invest in Newtek Lightwave or some such application.
Even if Roman said tomorrow everything is on track for 7.6 and it will be free,
that does not mean all bugs will be fixed or that Roman will be in charge the
day after. Uncertainty is part of outsourcing yours development tools to a
third party. It would seem prudent to have a secondary development source.
Maybe it is time trueSpace was your second source instead of your primary.
It will be months before the dust settles on the MS Caligari marriage. Can you
wait that long? |
Post by splinters // Feb 13, 2008, 11:27am
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Hey Paul, I feel for ya mate but I don't really understand the problem. I have been using tS since version 1 and created 23+ books all of which have their digital assets in one version of tS or another....I am not worried.
I built up a large presentation DVD of Buddy World using a program called ezedia, think Powerpoint with much more power. I just realised it is not Vista compatible so I have to use my ageing laptop to continue working on it...I am not worried (niggled yes!;))
You freely admit that you are no tS master and, from the comments you have made about my work in the past, I get the feeling you think I have advanced skills with it.
I could spend a few more years exploring tS7.5 and maybe never really find every feature and explore it fully.
tS7.5 works. Yes, it is buggy and dificult at times, but it works. Life is too short to wait to see what happens...what if your news is a long time coming?
You could have made great progress or even finished by then...will you have exhausted all of tS' possibilities? I doubt it.
And if you are holding out for a particular feature in tS7.6, then how can you be sure it would have been there anyway.
As I said Paul, I feel for ya. Motivation is hard to get when you are 'distracted' as you obviously are. In a few days I hope to post some more Little Cloud images and I have a lady interested in using the Chonkyponk book for a project but I will not let her until I update the images.
It is nothing to do with the software features but rather my skills have improved to the point where I don't want people seeing work which is not my best.
Food for thought maybe?
Keep well mate...:D |
Post by splinters // Feb 13, 2008, 1:28pm
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splinters
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Here's a thought; a few months ago I got offered a contract for all my work to be published. I made a vague announcement for the benefit of those who had followed my work and then promptly had to pull all my images from the site. A few days went by, a few questions were raised, and I popped in to explain what had happened. All I got were well wishes and congratulations. This new found optimism was inevitably a result of the fact that I was going to get these things published and you, the viewers were going to get bigger and better Buddy World experience. If a deal had been signed and I was told to discuss nothing in case I lost the whole things, I would have glued my lips together trust me!!
I realise you don't rely on me to supply you with software nor was my news anywhere near as important as this news but surely the principle is the same.
Deal is signed, nothing can be discussed until details are finalised. If you hear nothing in another week or so then maybe it is time for some concern but for now there are several hints that tS7.6 is on track and that no major changes are expected. I feel for Roman, I sense there is a part of him that wants to share all the news with this community but he has worked so hard for this that a few words out of place now could really mess things up.
Either you trust him or not...not point digressing into what bugs should have been fixed and arguments about what is 'owed'. Business is business, a time of great change and a mixture of excitement and apprehension. Virtual adrenaline really....:) |
Post by dave_k // Feb 13, 2008, 3:09pm
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Excellent points, Splinters.
I’ve only had opportunity to visit the forum a couple of times since the holidays. I must say that I am surprised and pleased with the Caligari / Microsoft situation. Roman and crew have been doing an excellent job of moving trueSpace from a hobbyist to a professional level. The journey is still underway but impressive strides have been made at a very reasonable price to us users. (Go price 3DS Max or Maya if you are in doubt.)
Roman and crew have always been up front with us users. At least they have been since I came on board with release 5. This time the magnitude of the situation demands that non-disclosure be enforced. Roman has made a deal with Microsoft that will hopefully provide him and his crew with impressive monetary gain. (God knows they’ve earned it.) This move also greatly improves the future of trueSpace. Now trueSpace has the possibility of moving on to greater things.
Will our beloved trueSpace go away? It will continue to evolve.
What about the ”good old days”? Personally, I’m not exactly pining away for the good old days of release 5.
Are the 7.5 bugs going to get fixed? I promise you that you have a much better chance than a 3DS Max user.
Does Roman owe us an explanation? Hell no. He has taken risks and made acrifices that most of us cannot fathom to get trueSpace where it is today.
I personally consider trueSpace my main tool in my modest arsenal. I want trueSpace to evolve and get the status it deserves in the CG community.
Will it cost me more? Probably.
Will the community change? The community has always been evolving – that’s why we meet here.
It 7.6 going to be a free upgrade? Not if I were running things – But Roman may have other ideas. I’ll respect his call.
I’m invested in trueSpace. I’m VERY interested in its future – and concerned that I might not be able to afford to be a player. The only solution for me is to congratulate Roman and crew on their major success, put on my “Big Boy Pants”, and see where we go from here. Roman has never turned his back on trueSpace users. I have no reason to believe he will start now.:) |
Post by Burnart // Feb 13, 2008, 3:26pm
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Burnart
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I’m invested in trueSpace. I’m VERY interested in its future – and concerned that I might not be able to afford to be a player. The only solution for me is to congratulate Roman and crew on their major success, put on my “Big Boy Pants”, and see where we go from here.
I think people have had time to shake off their initial shock, whichever it is - "hooray" or "dismay". We are into a waiting game now. At some point in the (hopefully) not too distant future the kinds of assurances and information people are asking for will be responded to. |
Post by JimB // Feb 13, 2008, 8:42pm
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JimB
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It 7.6 going to be a free upgrade? Not if I were running things
Well I'm glad you're not running things then,had TS7 been a new technology and not the old TS6.6 and the new TS7 cobbled together (sorry but thats what it feels like) I might of agreed with charging for a TS7.6 upgrade.
Jim |
Post by transient // Feb 13, 2008, 8:54pm
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transient
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Does Roman owe us an explanation? Hell no. He has taken risks and made acrifices that most of us cannot fathom to get trueSpace where it is today.
"Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!";) |
Post by TigreStripe // Feb 13, 2008, 9:04pm
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TigreStripe
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@ Tigrestripe - Re:" I do actually force the dentist to tell me how many teeth he's going to fix" - What? Before he's looked in your mouth? Dude, you are one badassed customer - glad I'm not your dentist!:D
The dentist is the one with the instruments that can double as torture tools. Best to let them know your resolve (and wrath) up front.:) |
Post by Improv // Feb 13, 2008, 9:19pm
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Improv
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"Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!";)
And for those not fluent in goofy pseuedo-latin:
"Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business!"
Or if you prefer: "A banana daquiri, and be quick about it!" :banana:
:p |
Post by transient // Feb 13, 2008, 10:02pm
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transient
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Please understand that this was just a joke (since Dave_K apparently has an affection for latin) not a personal dig at anybody, or Caligari. I think burnart pretty much summed everything up. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 14, 2008, 1:16am
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W!ZARD
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The dentist is the one with the instruments that can double as torture tools. Best to let them know your resolve (and wrath) up front.:)
Lol! Even I can't argue with that!
@ Splinters - nice to see you back - hope the camping trip went well.
Wizard, Even I was expecting confirmed bugs to be fixed in 7.51 but found they were left in. So I would have thought it reasonable NOT to have to PAY for a bugfix to main components in a 7.6 update.
The thread is here and refers to 7.5 as it stood. The bug was confirmed yet is still there in 7.51. Both myself and Jay were waiting for a fix to the problem and not just a workaround.A valid point Mike and to a certain extent I agree - I think it would be lovely if that was the way the world works but on the other hand.....
The first Caligari software I actually paid for was trueSpace 5.1 - I'd previously used tS 3.2 and was really keen to use the bones for animation - now if you've tried to use tS 4/5/6 bones you'll know that their functionality left a lot to be desired and could easily be discribed as buggy. Those bugs still exist - no bug fix was ever made - instead the entire core program was (and is still being) rewritten from the ground up.
The new bones use some of the great features of the old bones only they work much better. - new bones however means new bugs - just like growing a new tree, the bugs will move in at the start.
Now I'm not a programmer at all - but I know about the laws of physics and I know about order and chaos and you can't have one without the other. Software (any software) is an exercise in imposing order - and the more order that's imposed on a complex system the more chaos is created as well - as I said, you can't have one without the other. This is why bodies age, space shuttles crash, nations go to war, financial depressions occur and software has bugs!
It is totally reasonable to expect as many bugs as possible to be rectified as well as possible - but that act is imposing more order on a complex system which causes more bugs - it becomes an infinite regression, like the number pi. Expecting ALL bugs to be fixed is, to my mind anyway, an exercise in wishful thinking. It's OK to want perfection in an imperfect world but I'd recommend against expecting it.
Expecting a reasonable effort at fixing bugs to be made is perfectly reasonable - and possibly expecting that effort to be made at no charge to the customer is also reasonable -up to a point. When it gets to the stage of diminishing returns and the costs involved in fixing a bug get to be so great that the financial viability of a company is compromised then I think it is reasonable to expect customers to carry part of that cost (again within reason) and this sometimes means we have to pay for bug fixes. If this means better tools and better stability I'm happy to pay - everything in life is a trade off against everything else.
At least that's how I see it. :)
But unable to give any clue as to the expected target date? I't's probably bad form to answer a question with a question but I must ask - do you seriously expect anyone to be able to give an expected target date when building software. You can't even give an expected finish time for something as simple as building a brick wall - You might know that on a good day you can lay 200 bricks per hour and from that extrapolate how long a bricklaying job will take depending on the number of bricks that require laying - but how do you cater for the unexpected?
What if it starts to rain and washes your mortar away and you have to rebuild 2 thirds of the wall? What if the truck delivering the bricks is late, or breaks down or gets into a pile-up on the freeway. What if the truck arrives on time but accidently bumps the new wall and you have to rebuild a quarter of your wall? what if your best bricklayer falls off a scaffold and breaks his leg? Etc, etc. etc.
Remember a brick wall is a simple object - software of the scope of trueSpace is incredibly complex - you can never tell what happens next. One of the most respected scientists of the last 100 years said it and I'll repeat it again - "Prediction is hard to do, especially about the future".
I also note that you like to attempt to belittle members and/or their posts, very sad.Do I? If I wanted to belittle someone I am quite capable of doing that - as opposed to merely attempting to.
Your remark is ambiguous. Please point out exactly what I said and where I said it and if, as you infer, I have inadvertantly belittled someone then I will offer my apologies and do what I can to make amends. I have no wish or desire to belittle anyone.
Unless you can provide an example of belittling words from me your comment is a vague and insulting remark that does little but besmirch my good name. If you're going to make an accusation I'm happy to answer it and to own it if I'm guilty - but vague inferences such as your remark quoted above can all to easily be seen as a direct personal attack.
If 1 8 billionth of the worlds population thinks I belittle people when I haven't.... well I can live with that. If however, I actually have belittled someone then I want to make amends to that person. I will question what I see as fuzzy or unreasoned thinking - and I expect others to question my own fuzzy and unreasoned thinking - but I have absolutely no desire to belittle a fellow human being and forum member in that fashion so I take your remark very seriously.
WZRD |
Post by TigreStripe // Feb 14, 2008, 1:59am
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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Lol! Even I can't argue with that!
Thank you, sir.
Well. My words on this will not carry much weight. I have no commercial stake in TrueSpace like some of the people here. I'm new to 3D so I can move along without much trouble or at least switch to other apps. I bought Hexegon and Carrara 6 Pro and I'll tell you learning 3 apps in tandem is enough to send me over.
I don't know Roman so I can't say if he's a car salesman or a saint. Roman does not own the company any more. MS wouldn't say anything, I'm sure Newtek wouldn't. Autodesk, Maxon, take your pick. The only ones that do are the smaller companies. Just like Caligari was before the sale.
From what I've read, both here and the letter from the President in the manual, TrueSpace was always heading to this end. I don't think it will lose it's current functionality. I don't know that it will improve along the lines of a typical 3D modeler etc.
Do I think we, as PAYING customers, are entitled to know if TrueSpace is going to be improved as a 3D modeler, animation, offline renderer? Yes, I do. No, the company doesn't have to say a thing but it's usually good PR to tell them. Even if you just do it though email to those who make a living from your application. I'm sure Roman would if he could. It may just keep him awake at night more than any 50 meetings with the MS suits.
It's probably better to badger the new owners instead.
Anyway, just my two cents (Sorry Prodigy, I'd see your 2 cents and raise you two more. If I could texture worth a damn! :)) |
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