|
|
Roman, Caligari ... fess up, stop the smoke and daggers, lets have it!
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Roman, Caligari ... fess up, stop the smoke and daggers, lets have it! // Roundtable
Post by brotherx // Feb 14, 2008, 2:06am
|
brotherx
Total Posts: 538
|
As a programmer I can in fact say that you can never gauge how long a bug is going to take to resolve. I have had customers literally screaming down the phone for an emergency fix to a bug that is in their mind something simple to fix but is so complicated to resolve that it has taken weeks to find the solution and implement it. On the other hand you have the ones that are huge bugs but when you track them down, it's a bracket in the wrong place. (I use this example as it happened to me just yesterday - took me nearly 2 hours to track it down)
Users of software often have no idea how complicated something is to do and as a developer I realise that something simple in truespace is not really simple at all.
So, when someone asks me how long something will take to do, I usually say one of 2 things:
1. how long is a piece of string
2. it will be done when it is done (epic likes that one - I mean, duke nukem forever is a perfect example of that one)
Users hate both answers. |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 14, 2008, 3:00am
|
mykyl1966
Total Posts: 221
|
I know exactly how the bug fixing process works as I have had to do exactly that with my own applications over the years. (Edited as it seemed very grouchy.)
Truespace bones setup I love. I wish certain other applications I use had the ease of setting constraints that truespace does . Fantastic stuff.
There are many highlights that TS has but if what has been said about certain bugs being left in release after release are true (I know they are) then there can be NO excusing that. I cant believe anyone would use that as a justification. :confused: No matter how cosied up you are with a company and no matter who they are.
I do expect that 7.6 probably has one of the bugs I mentioned above fixed however I am not in desperate need to purchase 7.6 as I have other fallback applications and now that money is no longer an issue with me I have a choice unlike others to go other routes.
I would rather choose to stay with TS though and with the information that has been released regarding 7.6, it sounds like it could be very good.
I cant force them to do things how I want and I would not try. However myself and others have an opportunity on these forums to ask our questions or make our statements.
In general I would prefer people justified themselves rather than those of another person or company, unless of course they are directly employed by that company. That way it can be read as a true justification and not just guesswork on behalf of a third party.
I look forward to seeing what the future brings on the TS side. I just wish the forum was a bit more friendly towards people who do find issues with the application, rather than feeling pounced upon as myself and others have felt in the past.
It may have the illusion of a 'good' community but thats because anyone who expressed a thought about an issue has been driven out. Or they feel that pointing out these issues is not worth the headache that will come about and so sits behind the scenes just watching or worse still moves on. The folks employed by Caligari don't do this by the way. This is from experience personally and information gathered from others who refuse to come here because of the above issue. Such a shame as nowhere else can you get your answers.
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by Steinie // Feb 14, 2008, 3:19am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
Sometimes I say good things about TS and sometimes I don't. Never felt intimidated by anyone here or forced out. I sure hope your not talking about my reactions to other's problems. There IS a group of regulars here that is for sure but I don't see the problem you are referring to. Even within the group there is disagreement but that is life too. The common goal of course is an improved Application that miraculously fits everyones needs.
I think this forums response to others has been first class. |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 14, 2008, 3:44am
|
mykyl1966
Total Posts: 221
|
No I dont mean you. I don't know your situation. I do know mine and I do know certain other individuals.
Me I am too hard headed to move on but I don't usually take part very often.
What I am really saying is be careful about how peoples issues are responded to. To be told that there is no issue its just how your doing things then finally being able to PROVE that the issue exists (not just once mind you.) can feel like you are being ganged up on.
The intention of mentioning the problem that has been found is to inform the developers and give them the opportunity to solve that issue. No other reason. They were not made to 'bitch' about the application. Why would we do that about an application that we invested in???
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 14, 2008, 5:21am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
I'm sure you have your reasons for saying this Mike but it seems a little harsh to me.
I have no problem with people raising legitimate concerns and issues - I would have thought that was one of the purposes of these forums. I do have a problem with people making emotive comments, complaints and criticisms with no logical reason behind them - in fact I'd consider that behaviour to be rude and would have no difficulty saying so if I thought that was the case.
You say "It may have the illusion of a 'good' community but thats because anyone who expressed a thought about an issue has been driven out." and I guess you have your reasons but I am not aware of anyone being 'driven out' nor do I see any evidence that the goodness of the community is illusory.
For me these forums are like my local pub - I come here for good conversation, stimulating discussion and the sharing of knowledge with like minded people. I don't come here to badmouth the publican (Caligari) or his customers nor do I come here to listen to others badmouth them. If the landlord has accidentally or otherwise, shortchanged someone or over- charged them or claimed that his beer can cure warts when it can't then they have a legitimate complaint - which should be directed to Customer services for remedial action but also constitutes a reasonable topic for discusssion here.
Simply criticising for the sake of it? Well in my country that's called 'whinging' and it's considered socially undesirable behaviour. Those who want to whinge are quite entitled to do so and there is even a forum set aside specifically for that purpose (Rants and Raves).
Speaking for myself, I'm a fan of Critical Thinking. I consider any statement (especially a statement that I make myself) and ask myself in what way is this statement incorrect? It doesn't matter how flat you make the pancake it still has two sides (and arguably more for the pedantically inclined).
Anyone making a statement here - particularly in the round table forum which is intended for general discussion should be prepared for that statement to be discussed - I know I am.
You say "they feel that pointing out these issues is not worth the headache that will come about" - Could that possibly indicate that they don't have much real faith in the validity of their position?
I mean no insult by this - it's a legitimate question. In my experience a person who believes something whole heartedly and can support his/her position with sound reasoning will be not be detered by the opinions of others. Additionally, if they are able to support their chosen position it's inevitable that other discerning minds will agree with and support them - not everyone of course but as I said in an earlier post, we don't live in a perfect world and it's never a situation of us and them or right and wrong but both.
Re this remark "if what has been said about certain bugs being left in release after release are true (I know they are) then there can be NO excusing that". A fair point Mike. I to am aware of certain bugs being left in release after releases - which is why I mentioned earlier Bone systems. Even the new bone systems has bugs - the limb symmetry arrangement simply does not work as it's supposed to.
It's not my intention to 'excuse' this sort of thing - Caligari has looked after me very well over the years and I consider them my friends as well as business partners (in the sense that by buying their probuct we have engaged in business together). However if someone makes an unfounded criticism which they cannot support with effective reasoning then what sort of friend would I be if I did not question such behaviour?
It's not about being 'cosied up' with the company at all. It's about being fair.
It would seem to me that if a bug could be easily rectified by whipping up a quick line of code then common sense would suggest that would be done. The fact that the bug has not been rectified in a subsequent release suggests to me that it is a significant problem that may well be either unsolvable or simply too cost intensive to fix. Why would any software company sell software with bugs they could easily fix? That makes no sense to me.
Often when folk complain about a bug they do so in a critical manner and act as if the company is deliberately leaving bugs in their product - an idea that seems ridiculous to me. Given also that recurring bugs are found in pretty much any piece of software you can name it seems to me a logical thing to expect a certain degree of bugginess. This is not about excusing poor workmanship, it's about helping fellow customers to have realistic expectations.
If you buy a car it's realistic to expect the windshield to not leak. It's realistic to expect the car seller to fix it if it does leak. It's NOT realistic to also expect the company to 'fix' the windshield because it's got squashed bugs on it. It's in the nature of windshields to collect bugs.
Note: The above is simply the opinions of one guy (Me) and are in no way intended to represent anything other than that :D. Anyone wishing to question my opinions and what I precieve as reason and logic behind them is cordially invited to do so. Anyone able to show me a better way of thinking about something/anything than my current way is encouraged to do so - I like to learn new things and new ways of thinking! |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 14, 2008, 5:22am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Re Jaywat's post - I figure he's not going to read this but I think he has a legitimate point and it's made in a fair and strightforward way. He makes it abundantly clear that he is offering an opinion rather than a statement. There's a world of difference between "tS is crap" and "I think tS is crap because...". The same applies to 'fanboy' comments like "tS is great" as opposed to "I think tS is great because..."
I do have a passing curiosity as to what Jaywat is wanting to do with tS. If he bought a Microwave oven and expected it to make great toast then he didn't do his homework and caveat emptor. If he was told this microwave is so cool that it makes good toast by the Microwave manufacturer or seller then he finds out that he just ends up with very hot bread well that's misleading advertising which, in this country anyway, is a very serious crime. He should talk to his lawyer! |
Post by Norm // Feb 14, 2008, 5:39am
|
Norm
Total Posts: 862
|
... "A banana daiquiri, and be quick about it!" :banana:
:p
Yea we need a banana daiquiri smilie too :) |
Post by Improv // Feb 14, 2008, 7:57am
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Please understand that this was just a joke (since Dave_K apparently has an affection for latin) not a personal dig at anybody, or Caligari. I think burnart pretty much summed everything up.
Of course I knew it was a joke, thus my banana daquiri reference! :D
Also, please note my new signature! ;-) |
Post by Improv // Feb 14, 2008, 8:05am
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Yea we need a banana daiquiri smilie too :)
Ya, something like our present banana with a big red and white straw and a large yellow glass with one of those little paper umbrellas! :D |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 14, 2008, 8:09am
|
mykyl1966
Total Posts: 221
|
People can be emotional for a number of reasons as I am sure you are only too aware. Medical, historical etc.
Your flowery replies may be well thought out, artistic even but as to solving an issue they don't always progress the conversation forward. I have no issue with you nor any individual person on these forums.
I could pick apart each line of your posts but that also will get us nowhere. We will always differ in our outlook, of this I can be sure. :)
If you feel so inclined, feel free to take a look at my posts regarding 7.5. You will see sometimes an emotional person showing through but hopefully you will also see that if I am wrong about something I apologize but if I am right about something I will stick to my guns until it is acknowledged. Maybe I am wrong in feeling put out if something does not work and it seems that perhaps it may never work. Who knows.
Regarding Jaywats problem... Procedural animation IS an advertised feature. I linked the thread earlier with one of the issues. Normally I don't go over old ground but a new situation is here on the forums and as the person who recommended Truespace to Jay I felt obliged to mention it again.
With regard to why I may seem emotional at times... Well I could tell you my personal and medical history but it has no business on an open forum.
If I offended you in some way then I apologize for that. I mean that. Maybe the emotional side of me should bog off and hide again.
Mike R |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 14, 2008, 10:26am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Thanks Mike but there is absolutely no need to apologise to me - I took no offense whatsoever from your words and it never occurred to me to do so.
I appreciated that you were 'speaking your truth' as they say and I had no reason to believe you were being insincere. A couple of your comments took me by surprise and I also know how easy it is for forum conversations to be misconstrued.
Your remark about people being driven out seemed so counter to my own experiences here that I really just wanted to tell you how it was for me (as opposed to how it is for anybody/everybody else - I'm not qualified to speak on their behalf).
It is never my intention to belittle or criticise an individual - that would be boorish and rude. I do however exercise my right to question the reasoning behind a behaviour or opinion - how else can I learn?
I think many people are all too happy to say what they think but when asked why they think what they think they can feel attacked when they discover they don't necessarily have a good reason behind what they think. Even when they're not actually being attacked.
I totally support any persons right to be emotional - heck, they don't even need to have a good reason - we all have days like that! If someone says something that is totally outside my experience then I question it as much for my own learning as anything else.
I once read a book, I forget it's name, but it had this great line in it that always stuck with me. It went: "The current view of the situation is not better than a better view of the situation" and went on to point out that no matter what the situation is there is always a better way of looking at it. Often I present an apparently contradictory perspective with no other motive than to try to cheer someone else up by presenting a 'better' view - maybe I need to rethink that approach!
One last comment about your right to be emotional - I see you're from Scotland as my ancestors are. The Scots are passionate people and to that I say "good for them". |
Post by TomG // Feb 14, 2008, 10:49am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Oh another Scot, good good. Can't have too many of us, I say ;)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by KeithC // Feb 14, 2008, 12:29pm
|
KeithC
Total Posts: 467
|
For some reason I thought you were of British origin, Tom. |
Post by TomG // Feb 14, 2008, 12:38pm
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Hi Keith,
I am of British origin - Scotland is part of Britain. Do note that England is part of Britain too, but England is not all of Britain (many folks from outside of Britain equate "Britain = England", but Britain is in fact more than that!).
So I am both British and Scottish :) But I am not English (well not by birth, though I have English in me by descent, and some Irish too). There, now that's all as clear as mud I am sure hehe.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by KeithC // Feb 14, 2008, 1:47pm
|
KeithC
Total Posts: 467
|
So what you're saying is....you're not Irish? ;) |
Post by frootee // Feb 14, 2008, 1:48pm
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
1/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish here too m'Lad!
Other side (the Dark Side) :D :
1/4 Czech and 1/4 Hungarian.
Froo |
Post by TomG // Feb 14, 2008, 1:57pm
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Well, not Welsh, that's the one part of the UK I don't have any ancestry from :) My grandad was Irish though. Anyway, that means I don't quite get the whole set!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 14, 2008, 2:04pm
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
I'm your basic All American mutt when it comes to bloodlines. Ancestors from County Raphoe, Donegal, Ireland (supposable Scots before that?), and Radnorshire, Wales on the paternal side.
On the Maternal side Dutch and Irish.
Who knows what happened in between, I think there was a Native American in there once, one of a Wea tribe (yeah, I thought it was a joke too until I found it was a real tribe.) :D
Also, a tad German, Naes and Springer on the Maternal side.
Every time they take a blood sample, the Lab has to use an International translator to determine the results. :) |
Post by trueBlue // Feb 14, 2008, 5:06pm
|
trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
|
Regarding Jaywats problem... Procedural animation IS an advertised feature. I linked the thread earlier with one of the issues.
Mike R
I posted a solution in your mentioned thread:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=60851#post60851 |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 14, 2008, 7:46pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Well, not Welsh, that's the one part of the UK I don't have any ancestry from :) My grandad was Irish though. Anyway, that means I don't quite get the whole set!
Tom
I've often noted that you don't have a forum avatar image Tom. As you're a Scot in Texas I keep imagining a guy wearing a kilt and a ten gallon hat playing that pipes with a sixgun on his hip! Sorry to be boorishly stereotypical but that is what us Poms are supposed to do.:D
A Pom is a 'Prisoner Of Mother England' and is a name applied to anyone of British descent living in either Aussie or NZ. It's often used as an insult by those who are that way inclined as it refers to the early convict population of Australia. The insult however often falls flat because most modern day expatriot Brits are quite happy to be called Poms - I put it down to the infamous wacky British sense of humour. ;)
The stereotypical Pom is often portrayed as wading in the shallows at the beah, fully dressed with his trouser legs rolled up to the knee and a white knotted handkerchief on his head while everyone else is wearing swimming gear and board-shorts! |
Post by Délé // Feb 14, 2008, 8:09pm
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
Yeah, whenever I thought about Tom living in Texas, it's always stirred up strange images for me too. Would make for a good character in a movie. So Tom is a Scot and an Irish, living in Texas. Something tells me I wouldn't want to scrap with this guy. But why such good manners whenever I talk to him? Ah, that must be where the bit of English comes in. ;)
I'm a good 'ol American mutt too. I actually have more German than anything else in me, but with the last name Collins, the red hair, and the endless craving for potatoes in every form, the Irish shows through much more. :p |
Post by TomG // Feb 15, 2008, 2:35am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
If I still had my kilt, I would borrow a hat and a gun and a knotted hanky and take what would be the funniest picture ever :)
You can find me in our SIGGRAPH newsletter, where I show up with David Bokon in one image, and Vinny Carvalho in another, as well as working away on the laptop by myself too. I think with those pics it will make the whole hat, kilt and Pom image even funnier!
http://www.caligari.com/news/news_sept2006/SIGGRAPH2006_pics.html
Interestingly my accent is often mistaken as Australian by folks, since I speak with my "proper voice" rather than in my native dialect (otherwise no-one would understand me), and of course that isn't quite English, but isn't quite Scottish. Some folks can spot the Scottish origin, but generally it has folks fooled!
Anyway, that made for an amusing start to the day :)
Tom |
Post by JimB // Feb 15, 2008, 2:48am
|
JimB
Total Posts: 341
|
I can hear your Scottish accent in the TS7.51 video tutorials. |
Post by brotherx // Feb 15, 2008, 3:05am
|
brotherx
Total Posts: 538
|
Interestingly my accent is often mistaken as Australian by folks, since I speak with my "proper voice" rather than in my native dialect (otherwise no-one would understand me), and of course that isn't quite English, but isn't quite Scottish. Some folks can spot the Scottish origin, but generally it has folks fooled!
Tom
I'm from Scotland too and, if I remember correctly, about 35 miles from where you are from Tom. And yeah, I learned in a hurry you can't speak the 'native tongue' around others as they can't follow it.
When my brother came to visit I slipped back into it and my wife, who I've known for 12 years now, can't even understand that at times.
As for the 'Scotland?? isn't that in England?' thing...happened to me in a shop in Baltimore when I was on holiday...they lost a sale that day :) |
Post by 3dfrog // Feb 15, 2008, 3:21am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Hey Tom, if you're wondering who the balding guy in the black shirt is at the animation master booth behind you guys is, that's me! I was doing a thing about making a game character in animation master there. Guess what the character was, a frog! Funny how I was so close to you you guys and now truespace is the software I use most now. If I went over and saw what you guys were doing I might have been here sooner. |
Post by CdeB // Feb 15, 2008, 3:28am
|
CdeB
Total Posts: 160
|
My wife is Scottish and living abroad I now introduce myself (when necessary!) as British to avoid making the mistake of saying we're English (and the dig in the ribs;)) when that is only true for one of us. She also had to learn to speak differently to be understood moving from Aberdeen (where they speak the Dorrick -a different language again -ask Tom) to southern England. Unfortunately, this has led to a severe dilution of an accent I love :(
When asked where she is from and the questioner is uncertain about where Scotland is she retorts "Have you heard of England?" Yes, they reply "well" she says " England is the south part of Scotland!!!" with her tongue not quite in her cheek:D.
CdeB |
Post by brotherx // Feb 15, 2008, 4:00am
|
brotherx
Total Posts: 538
|
Aberdeen is where I'm from...and it is very difficult... |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 15, 2008, 4:11am
|
mykyl1966
Total Posts: 221
|
I am originally Perth but spent most of my life up in Elgin.
Strange thing is I don't like hearing women speaking with a broad Scots accent. Makes them sound too 'rough' to me.
Weird I know from a Scotsman but I guess that explains why I am married to an English lass. ;)
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 15, 2008, 4:15am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
When asked where she is from and the questioner is uncertain about where Scotland is she retorts "Have you heard of England?" Yes, they reply "well" she says " England is the south part of Scotland!!!" with her tongue not quite in her cheek:D.
CdeB
LOL! When I went back to England for an extended holiday I was either assumed to be Australian - in which case I'd invariably get some joke about Kangaroos - or else people would ask me where I was from and get most confused when I said I'm from Kent in England!.
As is so often the case with adjacent countries there is a degree of rivalry between Australia and New Zealand and we have something similar to the 'England is the south part of Scotland' line. New Zealand has two main islands with the rather unimaginative names of North Island (for the top one;)) and South Island (where I live) - it's becoming popular around here to refer to Australia as the West Island! (No offense to my fellow antipodean trueSpacers intended!) |
Post by mykyl1966 // Feb 15, 2008, 4:18am
|
mykyl1966
Total Posts: 221
|
My brother lives on the West Island as you put it. :D
Cheers
Mike R |
|
