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trueSpace in education
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
trueSpace in education // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Feb 19, 2008, 10:27pm
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splinters
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I realise this thread will not be of interest to many of you but as a teacher of some 15 years and a long term tS user who has managed to marry the two together successfully, I am curious as to the future of tS as an educational tool especially as that is essentially what a lot of google earth/virtual earth is for...it is not so much about productivity as experience and learning.
I also realise that Caligari could not confirm one way or another at the moment but I thought I would ask anyway.
I teach my students tS4 with a view to upgrading (they do it themselves) to a better version if necessary. I can always use my copy of tS7.5 as a rendering tool at the end of the project too.
I am a little cautious at the moment about recommending they do this as I am uncertain what the future holds. Bear in mind that I am talking about long term commitment to; I am looking at bigger, better jobs with more responsibility where I could essentially advise on purchasing a site license (or equivalent) of tS but I would not want to be the one with egg on my face if that was a bad purchase.
Remember also that school computers tend to be of the very 'basic' variety often having poor quality or no dedicated graphics cards only what is inbuilt and you can see that realtime may be a pipe dream for some years to come.
No real point to make here aside from my concerns about tS' future as a teaching tool. I know MS are moving into this area (giving away free design software to students) but what of tS as a modelling rendering program.
I am, of course very excited about the possibilities too and if MS want any advice then they can feel free to hire me...:p
I am sure they have many education experts but maybe not many tS 'specialists' based in europe/UK?? |
Post by Emmanuel // Feb 19, 2008, 10:41pm
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Emmanuel
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Good topic Splinter.
Your previous topic (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5020)is giving me hopes for an "open source" Modeler as standalone tool or bridged with MicroSpace.
Since Caligari stopped developpement on the old core, this is probably what all of us are dreaming of.
We could imagine a custom setup for education, and optimized UI for video special effects, and an other one for architecture and CAD design.
At least we could give a try to fix the last few bugs, improve the real-time render engine, optimize the material editor for better compatibility with other render engines, renew the KFE interface, make a better integration for MoStu, allow a drag & drop scenes and objects from Windows, implement an XRef feature... etc.
Aaaah, I feel good :D |
Post by splinters // Feb 19, 2008, 11:04pm
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splinters
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It has always suprised me that tS was not promoted more as an educational tool in the past. You see illustration bundles and animation etc. but I don't recall a teacher special or focus on the classroom other than the tS3.2 giveaway that a different 'learning' site did a few years ago.
Nor is there an educational version-just the tS demo.
Still, new owners, different marketplace nowadays. I am hoping all this will integrate nicely into a Pd study on interactive education for me in the next few years...maybe I should start jotting it down now eh?...:rolleyes: |
Post by RAYMAN // Feb 19, 2008, 11:56pm
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RAYMAN
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Maybe I am wrong but I dont think that all of
the future of Truespace is on the table yet !
So when Roman says in his last post that some
of it he does not know himself I do believe that !:rolleyes:
What I think is vital about this is that educational products
must be based on " NEW " technology and not old !
A big question is what is that educational software for.
If its to get you into a job in 3d business then the doors
are slammed closed already !
3d max and Maya are the industry standard and there is no way
that will be changed for the next months !
If the goal is to introduce the students to 3d ... well theres a chance
in 2 directions......1. drawing typ software like Sketchup and 2. hands on typ
like Truespace has always been ... !
Doesnt realy need a special version realy I would think .... just a special
deal !
Peter |
Post by splinters // Feb 20, 2008, 12:22am
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splinters
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Fair points Peter, I actually use tS to visualise ideas; more modelling and rendering than getting ready for industry use in 3D programs but this has always been the case. tS was never a real competitor there.
I was just musing about how this might change now that Microsoft own the technology. If there was someone in MS I could ask...I would.
I a simply trying to get an idea of how much I should depend on tS as an educational tool rather than an industry standard 3D package. |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 20, 2008, 12:38am
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jamesmc
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Perhaps Microsoft will make trueSpace the Industry Standard for Web 3D Graphics?
I can model all I want in 3D, however, without the Web no one will be able to see what I do and I can't very well send my Hard Drive around so people can take a gander. :)
I can imagine some guy named Splinters due to new software from Microsoft can put his illustrate book in a 3D environment and show it to a meeting of publishers in New York City!
One publisher is interested, but doesn't like one particular thing. He/She walks right up to the model in 3D space and points at the specific part in real time. "Here! This is what I want to see changed!" :)
It was a simple part so Splinters fixes it in real time, doubling the impression he left with the publisher.
Splinters gets a fat book contract and in three months is off on a book signing tour starting in San Francisco.
:D |
Post by Nez // Feb 20, 2008, 12:59am
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Nez
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Of course, it would have to be a virtual book signing tour, based in an immersive environment with digital copies of the book... ;):D |
Post by Grommit // Feb 20, 2008, 1:10am
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I can see a real *potential* future for the real time environment and TruePlace in education IF specific circumstances prevail.
I work for the teacher training dept at a major UK university, and people here have shown interest in 3d tools that could be used for science education, as simulations and demonstrations. I've visited schools where the kids are no longer doing real experiments in labs (too costly) but are instead being shown simple Adobe Flash demonstrations of what would happen IF they were actually in a lab. And this is for really simple things like static electricity and circuits. I found it really depressing. It's largely a cost thing. It's cheaper to subscribe to an online interactive textbook about science principles than it is to run a lab. And it's quicker to sit them in front of computers where there is no lab setup time - so you can get through the syllabus faster and keep up.
Real time 3d simulations sounds like a good compromise between time and money savings of simulations, versus the genuine learning experience of being able to manipulate 3d objects to understand principles. This sounds like an ideal use for the Truespace family, and a big opportunity for new businesses.
However, there is a circular problem and a big issue of cost to contend with.
Until science teachers get to try this out as a working idea, they won't bother with it - they're all too busy simply getting through the amount of teaching they already have to bother with something new - unless it is already proven to make their lives easier.
And second, while I can really see a cut down free modeler being used to get students to build 3d molecules or other simulations which they can collaborate over in TruePlace, this simply will not happen so long at the TruePlace server product costs a fortune. Schools will simply not operate in a non-private online environment. There is a real culture of needing to be in complete control of what the kids do. And if the use of the Trueplace server is rented then it HAS to be very cheap.
Price is an incredibly important issue in UK schools. There has to be a low cost means of entry that schools can try out to see if it works, without being locked in to a major purchase. So this means either that the cost of the Server product has to come down to $200, or a monthly rental of only a few dollars per user or group of users.
Currently TS is a fab tool for a specialist group who are prepared to pay for a much desired tool. It is not yet pitched right for the education market.
And of course I could be talking complete rubbish as someone sat in an ivory tower. But as part of my day job I've visited dozens of science teachers in schools and strongly got the impression that they won't look at online content unless it's free, or proven to work, and directly tied to the specific course syllabus that they teach. Anything else is largely off limits as they just don't have the time to look at it. |
Post by Délé // Feb 20, 2008, 1:48am
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Délé
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I was going to comment that there were discounts on trueServe for educational institutions. However, when I went to look for the trueServe page, it seems that they have removed the link. Perhaps this has something to do with the acquisition?
I believe that it used to be advertised on the subscriptions page here with a link to more info:
http://www.caligari.com/Store/proteam/default.asp?SubCate=S2subscriptions&Cate=STproTeam
It's no longer advertised on the Caligari website so far as I can see. I still have a direct link to the page which I had saved, and the info page still exists. There is just no link to it from the Caligari website anymore. Are they not advertising it right now due to changes, or are they not selling the technology anymore?
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tServe/tServe_intro.asp
I seem to recall a statement about educational discounts which I no longer see on the page too. I have to admit, this looks a bit disheartening for those that spent a lot of time and energy pitching trueServe to potential investors. :confused: |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 20, 2008, 3:11am
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W!ZARD
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Hmmn - Interesting thread - I imagine that schools are going to lag behind the technology for some time to come unless there is a major change to the way the are funded and the focus of the curricula.
I read recently that Microsoft is commited to moving all their server OS to 64 bit over the next few years and the impression was clearly given that they would expect the desktop pc to do the same.
As I understand it trueSpaces Rosetta architecture will run very well on 64 bit OS.
Thus schools purchasing new servers will soon be compelled toward 64 bit architecture - and, assuming I have even the faintest idea of what I'm talking about, it won't be too long before 32 bit PCs go the same way as VHS tapes and black and white TV's.
Schools cannot hope to keep up with the rate of technological change until such time as they become profit making enterprises able to write off such technology costs like a business can.
Bringing it all back home, what sort of home PC were you using 10 years ago? What sort of PC will you be using ten years from now? 128 bit OS running on banks of linked multicore cpus running hundreds of gigabytes of RAM..... well you get the picture. |
Post by RAYMAN // Feb 20, 2008, 3:36am
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RAYMAN
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Hmmn -
Bringing it all back home, what sort of home PC were you using 10 years ago? What sort of PC will you be using ten years from now? 128 bit OS running on banks of linked multicore cpus running hundreds of gigabytes of RAM..... well you get the picture.
Yeah but where can I get a brain update ?;)
Peter |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 20, 2008, 4:44am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Yeah but where can I get a brain update ?;)
Peter
Never fear! If Microsoft ever really get a handle on the KISS principle at least half that awesome processing power will go toward making the computing easy for us poor outmoded monkey brains :D |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 20, 2008, 8:47am
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Igor K Handel
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Sorry to run a slight sidetrack here but I simply have to comment on something Grommit has said.
I work for the teacher training dept at a major UK university
as part of my day job I've visited dozens of science teachers in schools
So you obviously have a pretty good picture of teachers attitudes.
but this next bit shocks me to the core....
Until science teachers get to try this out as a working idea, they won't bother with it - they're all too busy simply getting through the amount of teaching they already have to bother with something new - unless it is already proven to make their lives easier.
That is a one heck of a damning statement, that scares the heck out of me..
Effectively I read from this that teachers won't make an effort to improve themselves, and so their quality of teaching, unless it makes THEIR lives easier. So the educators of our children have to be spoon fed, given an easier life. Their priority is themselves not their pupils, because they are so busy. Strewth these people have a duty of care for the education of our kids, they have more paid holidays than just about any other work, they are supposed to help shape a future generation. What happened to teaching being a vocation? No wonder the teaching standards of the basics are letting the next generation down!
When I moved back from N.Ireland back to England, I was shocked at the huge drop in standard of education here. Your comment, as an insider has just cast a huge ray of light on why.
one word..... Attitude
Yours IK
PS not personal but boy that is shocking!!!
And yes I have been a teacher in Primary, Secondary, Grammar, Private, and Adult education institutes, but that was music.. Hmm perhaps musicians are more passionate for their work and are prepared to learn both in and outside working hours.
Sorry guys we can't finish inventing the lightbulb today, the bell's just gone.. |
Post by Délé // Feb 20, 2008, 9:11am
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Délé
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I'll tell you what happened in America. It's called the "No child left behind" Act. It essentially pigeon holes teachers into only teaching their students to memorize facts so they get good test scores instead of inspiring them and really teaching them.
I contacted my old 5th grade teacher about a year ago. He was a fantastic teacher. I learned more from him then any other teacher I had throughout my school years. The reason was his innovative approach. He made learning fun. We acted things out for history, we got outside to learn about birds, and many other things. He actually took the time and energy to reach out to us students and get us involved in the material. If he had just fed us facts like the teachers are forced to do now, I would not think back upon that year so fondly and would not have taken as much as I did from his class.
Here's the sad part. When I contacted him I found out that he hasn't been teaching for the last 5 years. He got out of teaching specifically due to the "No child left behind" Act. He said he didn't feel he could really teach the students anymore due to the restrictions. He couldn't do all of the innovative teaching that he did when I was a kid. He just didn't feel like he was reaching the children anymore. It's very sad really, a lot of great teachers like him are leaving the system. Unfortunately, the children lose in the end.
With that said, I agree that not enough funding is set aside for new technologies. I know schools are limited in budgets, but money has to be set aside for new learning methods. We have to continue to increase the quality of education in this country IMO. That probably means we need more funding for schools all together. Of course, after we get rid of that detrimental "No child left behind" Act.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. |
Post by splinters // Feb 20, 2008, 10:32am
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splinters
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Igor, teachers may have long holidays but it is the pressure they are placed under within the school term and day that is the problem. Many classes are over subscribed with too few resources and an increasing problem with behaviour. From an 'outsiders' point of view, it may seem like what you say but at the cliff face many of us are happy to get through a lesson in one piece.,,especially my seubject where sharp tools and machines are involved!!
Mr Hollands Opus, Mr Chips et al are but a distant rosy memory nowadays. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 20, 2008, 11:00am
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Igor K Handel
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Your "no child left behind" policy sounds a bit like the way the education system in N.Ireland was becoming, and I guess England may be going, or have already be gone.
I had just started teaching with a new education authority. Some five weeks into my new post the bi-annual teachers meeting was held. At the place setting for each teacher was a printout for their pupils exams taken/passed the previous year. I had a printout that consisted of 135 pupils names, and their school, and a big 0 for exams taken or passed. This was because as yet the pupils records, apart from their names were still showing up under the previous teachers records. As the head of department went from teacher to teacher commenting on the NUMBERS of passes and the NUMBERS entered he came to me. For the first 30 seconds he started a whole big speech about numbers = funding, and why the 0... then he realised his mistake. To me it said it all.
At no point in the meeting was bringing challenges, enjoyment, social development, or even education mentioned. It was all justification for funding past and future. My pupils were reduced to statistics in the fight for funding. I
After another similar meeting I resigned in disgust. It was just a justification and numbers game! Statitistics gone mad.
I agree that funding needs to be made available for new tech. Without it kids today are just not going to be prepared for the working environment that will greet them.
As an aside. I had a chemistry O level teacher who taught just as you describe. All memory, all geared completely to an exam. In a way it worked, but the reality was it totally backfired. Why.. because everyone of us passed. BUT as a result the school then pushed us into a further 2 years A Level study, but with a different teacher who didn't teach like that.. We had no idea, it was like a completely alien subject, all we knew were the specific facts we had learned parrot fashion.. It was a 2 year fiasco. We ALL failed A Level, we just hadn't learnt the basics before going onto the more advanced. The irony was that our A level teacher was pulled up about the horrific results, not the O level "teacher" for not "teaching" us.
IK |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 20, 2008, 11:06am
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Igor K Handel
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Splinters I have the t shirt..
I taught in a school just outside Belfast 1 afternoon a week for a few months . The previous year several teachers and 1 pupil were locked up as the metalwork department had been making weapons parts for the para militaries. LOL Even the rats wore balaclavas at that school!
IK |
Post by splinters // Feb 20, 2008, 11:24am
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splinters
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Jeez I can't top that...:D |
Post by Burnart // Feb 20, 2008, 12:07pm
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Burnart
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I was an art teacher specialising in painting and technical drawing for 15 years. When I quit to become a cartographer part (and I emphasise ONLY a part) of the reason I left was because in my more cynical moments I felt that the curriculum was more about box-ticking than teaching students to respect and engage in the subject - my enthusiasm for the job had ebbed so much. Also visual arts weren't given much credence and they were slowly trying to turn me into a computer teacher because I had an interest in them - not a direction I wanted to go. (Mind you I have a couple of Photoshop or similar paint program lessons I can walk into any classroom with and knock the kids socks off!) |
Post by trueBlue // Feb 20, 2008, 12:27pm
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trueBlue
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Gives new meaning to the phrase, "Old School"!
Ah, those were the good old days. :) |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 20, 2008, 12:27pm
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Igor K Handel
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On the subject of education, I thank my stars that the best tool my teachers gave me was to instill an enthusiam for learning long after my school days were over.
Of course they hadn't reckoned on TS7.51 !!!
Which right now is just a proverbial pain. I mean come on here I am in workspace I go for edge extrude... nope, ok then I need to do the simplest of tasks, delete a vert to combine 2 edges... Surely if you delete a vert between 2 edges that are similar in angle it should be obvious the only reason would be to make the 2 edges as one straight one? nope. So I have to delete the 2 polys and rebuild as one... well long winded or what! ok so I try to save time with sticking in some hotkeys on workspace.... surprise..... model side has different hotkeys.. surely even as a temporary thing the 2 sides could share hotkeys at least? ok so to model side and I look for loop selection... nope... Sometimes a vert strangely moves off to infinity when weight painting,,, can I get it back, can I heck, I'd still be scrolling next week, so ok i think hey I can find it, theres got to be a list of verts somewhere, with the weights in text, like just about any other prog I have used... well guess what.. boy oh boy , I love learning but this is such an uphill pain in the proverbial. As for the lack of index full search facility in a help file split into a zillion parts....... gimme a break I'm game but this makes a noobs life miserable.
I am seriously contemplating giving up on workspace and just sticking to the model tab. Its elegant and the Icons are good, but it's just too limited and its a pain to keep flicking back for what are in my opinion fairly basic tools But if I stick to model side I have to relearn a pile of stuff in the workspace later on.
Suggestion if at least the same hotkeys worked on both tabs then I could ignore icons and concentrate on modelling and not the interface?
Sheesh. When learning ceases to be fun it can only last so long. The learning perseverence module is now in an overload situation!!!
Ok I got off track there, I promise no more..
IK |
Post by Grommit // Feb 20, 2008, 12:30pm
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Grommit
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So you obviously have a pretty good picture of teachers attitudes.
Hi Igor. I don't claim to speak for teachers in general. I am not a trained teacher myself, just a web guy working on educational websites for science teachers. I went out into schools to assess my project and say what I saw on those visits. Don't regard me as any kind of authority, as I'm not.
Effectively I read from this that teachers won't make an effort to improve themselves, and so their quality of teaching, unless it makes THEIR lives easier.
Not at all. The teachers I met are all dedicated people doing their best in very difficult circumstances, where more is demanded of them as people than could possibly be delivered by anyone.
I don't know the actual stats, but its something crazy like 2/3 of those who undertake teacher training never finish, as they run away in horror. A friend of mine finished training as a science teacher a couple of years ago. In his first year, with lesson planning and marking, he had to do 90 - yes 90 - hours per week in order to simply keep up with the pressures of delivering too much content in to short a time. To my mind, that's inhuman.
What happened to teaching being a vocation?
From what I see, it still is. Those who have the vocation have stayed in, while huge numbers are quitting for an easier life away from teaching. I can't remember the figures, but I remember reading a newspaper report a year or so ago which said something like two thirds of all uk teachers would like to get out of the profession.
Your comment, as an insider has just cast a huge ray of light on why.
one word..... Attitude
I've seen some great teachers who are utterly dedicated, but who have to deliver an impossible amount. The only way it can be done is by focussing on what will deliver here and now. The summer time, when the students are away is when they get to sit down and prepare for the next year. It's the only time they get to do any kind of reaching out for something new.
But I would like to repeat, this is just my very limited view, as a fellow outsider looking in. I don't think I could do what they do. I've thought about going into teaching for many years, but I suspect I'd not be able to cope. It certainly looks harder than any job I've ever done before. |
Post by splinters // Feb 20, 2008, 12:43pm
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splinters
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Its elegant and the Icons are good,IK
What? Just good?.....:p |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 21, 2008, 12:34am
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W!ZARD
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Interesting that there is strong teacher presence here! Also interesting - not to mention depressing - is the degree of commonality among those of us who have taught.
I taught High School kids - between age 12 to age 17 or 18 - for several years. It was easily the most stressful and challenging job I've had - and a lot of fun too in many ways. The problem was not the kids, it was the education system itself. As for teaching the kids - well the focus was on giving them an education, not in teaching them - two very different things.
"Teaching" was all about accountability, achieving curriculum targets and meeting KPI's (Key Performance Indicators). The focus was on teaching the kids certain 'facts' instead of teaching them how to learn and how to enjoy learning.
I recall a conversation with the Head of the English Department at the School I taught at - she said the primary function of any bureaucracy was to perpetuate that bureaucracy and so the entire focus of the teaching staff was directed at accountability and conforming to directives sent down from 'head office' - usually from a bunch of stamp-licking pencil-pushers who may have been excellent bureaucrats but knew very little about children and teaching.
Trying to be a teacher in this country is a sure-fire way to disappointment and stress. There is a chronic shortage of teachers here and still - after all this time - the leaders of our education system haven't figured out why the education system is failing so many kids and why it's so hard to attract teachers to the profession.
Reading between the lines of the posts here it seems this is not a situation limited to just my country! |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 21, 2008, 10:01am
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Igor K Handel
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In reply to Grommit.
Ok perhaps I should have described your position as a closer witness on the ground than I now currently am.
I don't dispute that there are teachers for whom the job is a vocation. I question what appears to be a hugely lower number of them than in the past. Probably as you quite rightly say, because it isn't an easy job. but then modern teachers know this when they embark on teacher training?
If I follow on from your logic then there will be no new tech taught as teachers can't do what is asked of them now, much less anything new.
So our future educator had done his research, because obviously thats what educated people would do, and before embarking on training he had a good idea of the hours and sacrifices that were likely. A bit like trainee doctors would do before embarking on that career choice, or I would do when I changed career and reasearched the work of a tower crane driver. IE in my case potentially 60 - 80 hrs a week depending on location and season. 90 hours may be inhuman, but I put it to you that these educated people have enough sources and information, that they know EXACTLY what they are going into? So for me that is not a valid arguement.
I put it to you that just because someone is good at doing something does not mean they are good at teaching it, and that maybe that is why so many leave the training, when they realise this? Transferring of skills is completely different than having those skills.
Am I saying teaching is easy NO
But it isn't rocket science either. As in any job there are good people and not so good people. I suspect that the percentages of good to not so good are firmly swung in favour of the not so good, with so many "good" teachers jumping ship? Is this an unreasonable surmise?
In addition I refer to my comment on having moved back from N.Ireland to England... I would have thought that broadly, teachers within the UK face the same workload, hours and challenges and difficulties... If you can agree on this, then why the big difference in level of education for school leavers between the areas. Same Government, same training, same hours etc.
Onwards, here is a situation that just stuns me,
How can the government and the UK education system justify the following situation... My 5 year old daughter attends the local primary school.
In her class are an arab brother and sister. As with all children who are British citizens the law says both must attend school. However in this case the father did not want his daughter to attend, just his son. The law has insisted the girl attend, however the school HAS agreed that the sister will NOT be taught English!!!! That is outrageous!!!.
I am NOT a racist, but how can a country function like this. How do I explain this to my daughter who can't even speak to her classmate. How will this girl be able to function in UK society when she grows up? What happened to integration? What happened to equal rights for that arab girl. What happened to the law of the land being equal for all? I think this country is heading for big big trouble. This girl sits each day unable to communicate with her classmates or teacher except through her brother, that means she is not learning any of the other subjects either, and our government and our education system allow this ???
If I went to just about any other country in the world I would expect to have to learn their language to some degree and to be governed by that countries laws, I would expect that I would be required to integrate within that countries society. If not then why should I be allowed into that country, of what benefit would it be to let me in for the already existing citizens otherwise? What would I be contributing if not?
From what I have seen in England since my return here a few years ago, the UK is close to meltdown, and I fail to see how the path it is on can lead anywhere different. Political correctness got completely mental.
Ps Splinters
I upgrade to pretty good lol. Sorry I just don't read icon weekly magazine enough to get THAT excited. Just a Pagan I guess. :p Can you get pay per view icons lol that would be cool. Would the Haywain ever have been painted if they had just offered him the icon contract, was it discrimination?
Hmm are there icon spotters like you get train spotters? Do Icon spotters wear anoraks? Or how do you recognise one.
Ok enough
Yours
IK |
Post by splinters // Feb 21, 2008, 10:14am
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splinters
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Hmm are there icon spotters like you get train spotters? Do Icon spotters wear anoraks? Or how do you recognise one.
Ok enough
Yours
IK
I have no idea, not really an icon anorak, I just like the ones I made...:D |
Post by Igor K Handel // Feb 22, 2008, 8:55am
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Igor K Handel
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Splinters I was jesting. The Icons are clear, informative and pleasing to the eye. I just make fun for entertainment, not meant to be at your expense. Apologies if it appeared otherwise.
Yours
IK |
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