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4 weeks with no Captain's Blog entry?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
4 weeks with no Captain's Blog entry? // Roundtable
Post by prodigy // Mar 12, 2008, 1:24pm
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Well, I'm not sold. Patrick does not impress me Prodigy.
Make Spongebob then we are talking...;)
This is a small part from my post inside the beta forum answering that.. ;)
..... This is why i choose Patrick and not SpongeBob
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/02/23/spongebob-squarepant.html |
Post by splinters // Mar 12, 2008, 1:34pm
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But surely Patrick would be best served as an...erm, adult toy for a few liberal friends...;):D |
Post by prodigy // Mar 12, 2008, 1:38pm
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Pervert! :p |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 13, 2008, 10:32am
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Deleted by Paul. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 10:37am
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jamesmc
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Well, my thoughts on the sliders.
Like it or not...
Making Graphic Artists program their own sliders or using scripts to do the most basic things is counter-productive.
This is nice for programmer geeks or those who do this kind of stuff for a living.
However, wading through the LE do something that should be very basic in the nature of the interface is to me, a spoiler that makes the experience a tortuous adventure in coding.
It's why, I'm stuck most of the time on the older, slower Model side. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 13, 2008, 10:55am
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James, as i told in past posts that is not the default morph interface.
I always use a diferent UI, for example i use a custom layout totally diferent from what is offered in 7.5, mines is more like 7.11 .. that mean Caligari doesn't push you to use 7.5 interface.. that's good ;)
I feel confortable with that sliders on that moment and that's why i've changed, even, the 7.6 morph panel has more options that not are showed on that movie.. but i don't need it for that level of the project..
So don't worry about the sliders or if i make a script for a breathing.. Just was an example for what people can do..
Remember, im a 2D artist too.. This is my first project with scripts and to be honest is very simple.. Just need to know basics of script.. (i know a bit of php) That's the same base i know to script in LE.. nothing else nothing more..
Relax, one thing is important here, and it's create a basic script tutorial.. "More BASIC.." with few "usesful stupid scripts" (trademark) So i think make a easy tutorial for "noob" users like me :p and you will see LE is not bad or dificult to learn..
Take care. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 11:03am
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Well, don't know what's in 7.6 Prodigy, I'll take your word for it.
Just saying that requiring people to use the LE to do basic things is an exercise of time waste mismanagement.
If you look at programs like XSI or even the much less capable program Carrara 6 Pro, they implement a lot of very powerful dialogue boxes, sliders, wheels and etc. to get even complex tasks done quite easily.
I mean, even camera movement in tS is a pain in the butt.
Pan, Zoom Bank, zoom tracking and etc. can all be easily placed in a panel where the user has intuitive control. Even a simple dialogue box for choosing which camera you want to use would be nice, instead of wading through the LE or Editor in model side. I mean come on...
I must admit there are advantages to scripting and the LE. However, for routine daily tasks, I prefer to get things done quickly and easily with an intuitive feel.
Wading around around in scripts is not my idea of intuitive. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 13, 2008, 11:16am
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It's true... first at all must be intuitive..
Truespace bring many levels depending in the user experience and skills..
In this case, Truespace bring a solution for all these levels.. and even you can create your own lvl if it's needed..
That's the real power of LE.
Don't worry, you can work with Morphs whithout scripts... ;)
**hey i sound like a sales manager :( haahhahaa :D |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 11:19am
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.
Don't worry, you can work with Morphs whithout scripts... ;)
**hey i sound like a sales manager :( haahhahaa :D
That's true, I have three other programs I can do 3D morphs in, just not trueSpace. :( |
Post by prodigy // Mar 13, 2008, 11:26am
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Don't worry.. that's gonna be solved soon :)
Don't worry i use only Truespace, by personal desition and cos my neurones cant learn 3 diferent ways to make the same :)
So i just decide between softwares and here i am.. ;) |
Post by frootee // Mar 13, 2008, 11:39am
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quick question here prodigy.
I have not worked with the default truespace interface for morphs so my question is this:
Does the morph panel already have sliders? And if so, did you just change those sliders to look the way you want them to?
The reason I am asking is because 'sliders' were pointed out as an item of interest, but there is the impression that you had to add them
yourself, rather than change the default ones to suit your taste.
gracias amigo! :)
EDIT:
TomG pointed out the use of sliders and yeah they are there by default. In the video, Prodigy just customized them to fit the way he liked them. |
Post by tomasb // Mar 13, 2008, 11:46am
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quick question here prodigy.
I have not worked with the default truespace interface for morphs so my question is this:
Does the morph panel already have sliders? And if so, did you just change those sliders to look the way you want them to?
The reason I am asking is because 'sliders' were pointed out as an item of interest, but there is the impression that you had to add them
yourself, rather than change the default ones to suit your taste.
gracias amigo! :)
note that there is significant difference between 7.5 morphs which are done with scripts and morphs which Prodigy uses and Roman disclosed... |
Post by frootee // Mar 13, 2008, 11:49am
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yep. OK thanks tomas. :) |
Post by prodigy // Mar 13, 2008, 11:52am
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To be honest i don't know if im able to still "speaking" about morphs here :(
Maybe Tom Norm or Roman can bring more light here (sure, if they want..)
I want, but don't know if i can.. ;)
I don't want get in trubles.. Me comprendes amigo mio? ;) |
Post by frootee // Mar 13, 2008, 11:59am
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Si...
I mean Oui... :) |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 12:15pm
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Total Posts: 2566
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To me, morphs in polygon based objects are just manipulation of vertices.
One assigns a name and action to the morph and they can be animated independently of a timeline or with a timeline.
More sophisticated morphing involves the use of "null objects" to control the aspects, size, location and rotation of the object. Aspect being texture or shading.
Null objects can be thought of invisible puppet strings sticks (the thing the strings are attached to on a puppet) and used to control the basic animation, size, location, rotation and etc. Null objects are often static once placed with no control other than their initial placement.
At least my view on the matter. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 13, 2008, 12:15pm
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merci vo cu :rolleyes:
Sayonara :D |
Post by TomG // Mar 13, 2008, 1:05pm
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Hi all,
Being a beta feature, we can only disclose as much as is shown in the Captain's Blog. We can't discuss more about it here.
Of course this is the danger of releasing this information - suddenly people complain about what they don't see or do see or how this one small example was done etc. This is what can make us very wary about sharing info!
Please do remember that its a tiny slice of an in development item. Don't speculate or conjecture or assume too much, one way or another. As ever, final specs will be given out at the time of release, or when release is absolutely imminent.
Eg here in the Captain's Blog there has been no mention that you have to use the LE to se t up the tool, yet someone is saying you have to use the LE and that's not good - but no information on how that works has been given, and an assumption is being made.
We can't answer any such questions as the UI is subject to change, and anything we say here may change. What I can say is that naturally we are keeping in mind what would make a good workflow for people using morphs, and the UI design will be based on that, with feedback from our beta testers.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 1:29pm
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Doesn't help much Tom.
The typical user is in just as much dark as they were before.
Feedback is a good and vital system of essential communication. |
Post by nowherebrain // Mar 13, 2008, 2:03pm
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Yes, and people are going to come and go(customers) regardless.
as a customer, I am more likely to stick around and buy upgrades(return customer) if I know a col new feature is coming, or being talked about. I ma complain, as a customer, but in the end it's cool and useful features that hook me. We are still playing catchup in this department. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 13, 2008, 2:05pm
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James,
If you have ideas or suggestions for the UI and features, why don't you do put together a proposal or start a discussion in the Feature Request section of the forum.
You now know that Morphs are coming. Tell Caligari how you'd like for them be, what you think would be a great interface. Get some discussion going and compare and contrast the good/bad elements of implementations in other packages. As Tom said the UI hasn't been finalized, now is your chance to affect it's design. Instead of telling Caligari what you don't like and making assumptions about a tool that hasn't even been released, take the opportunity to tell them what you think would make the tool great! :D
Remember, that us beta testers mostly won't be allowed to participate in the discussion, so it's not fair to ask us details about how it is or is not implemented the beta. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 2:20pm
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I have made suggestions about cameras and other things in the Features forum.
However, as I previously mentioned, without feedback of what is being developed or implemented I'm still in the dark.
I noticed a lot of the Pro Users, utilize more expensive software in the CGI class other than trueSpace. They have something to fall back on.
Most users wanting to do something may not even know how to ask for something if they never done it.
Or, they may not know how to ask for something if they can't conceptualize its usage.
For simple things, I can ask for with some advantage of experience in other programs.
Cameras for instance:
Having to hunt and peck to get a camera to do "something" or "anything" for that matter is beyond the pale. There should be switches, levers, slider bars, knobs, radial buttons... you know something that invokes the idea of control of the device that is user friendly.
As it is now for cameras, nada unless one wants to lean over backwards while holding one's breath singing their national anthem backwards.
Think of all the things Hollywood film cameras do: Virtual 3D cameras should be no different in their use and control - except we don't have hands to 'grab' them. Making the use of a friendly interface is essential in productivity.
Beta Testers are cool, I've been one myself back in the early days of online games. I've also heard the comments by the commercial users is why the test team didn't do this or that. Then thought to myself, why didn't I think of that?
The main reason is that a broad user base experienced are exponentially greater in scope than a beta testing team's experiences. Their desires, although sometimes misguided sometimes creates innovative design.
This all reminds me of a family reunion picnic. The idea was having professional Chefs make the food instead of the mom's and grandma's. It was a good idea and saved much work for the "every day" cooks. The results of the 'picnic' were well, professional.
However, the comments from the majority of the family was, "sure doesn't take like grannies chicken or mom's potato salad."
...and that swirly desert thing was more like a drizzle of chocolate syrup on a paper thin wafer - wut up wit that?" :) |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 13, 2008, 2:48pm
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James !
I could have not said it better.....
This all is a problem of discussion.
Of all the companies of which products I use Caligari is one
of the few that doesnt rely on discussion withn a broader user base.
I visit a lot of sites where the people who make the product
want for more imediate feedback from their customers.
You see we had beta and proteam and this and that.... and in the end
we have people making widgets and lights and handles... things that
should have been implemented into the basic product in the first place.
I am happy about the potential of Truespace at the moment... and
I am happy about how nicely the workspace realtime side works
and I am happy abourt having a link editor but when it comes to basic controls we made a leap back in years !!!!!Thats how I feel about it.
I see I´m not the only one !:o
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 13, 2008, 4:38pm
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All good points guys. :)
I'm just saying that Roman and crew don't really have time to be combing through current or back threads to find a great suggestion that someone made maybe a few months ago...
Putting the suggestions in the feature request section makes them a lot easier for the devs to find. Same goes for bugs. ;) |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 13, 2008, 5:13pm
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I put a quickie 'draw up' in features of what minimally what a morphing animation should consist of imo.
Those who have done morphing in other programs will understand the interface. However, it wouldn't take much to figure it out by a new user. |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 14, 2008, 2:31am
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Of all the companies of which products I use Caligari is one
of the few that doesnt rely on discussion withn a broader user base.
I am happy about how nicely the workspace realtime side works
and I am happy abourt having a link editor but when it comes to basic controls we made a leap back in years !!!!!Thats how I feel about it.
I see I´m not the only one !:o
Peter
Umm! Wow Peter I'm a little surprised to hear this - I'm no programmer, or beta tester, just a hobbiest with 6 years of pleasurable interactions with both Caligari's softwares and it's staff. On several occasions I have made comments in passing (without any expectation that they would ever be any more than comments in passing) only to be pleasantly surprised to hear later that the comment was passed to the development team.
In another glaring example - tS 7.1 came out with little in the way of character animation tools, a fact which provoked considerable discussion at the time. Caligari listened and came out with an update jammed full of character tools and work-flow improvements based on discussion among the user base. Hell they're still working on it - that's what the morphs are all about!
Re your second comment above - well I guess I'm just easily pleased or something because I think the entire workspace side of tS is a huge leap forward. Yes there are still aspects that need to leap further - light controls spring to mind - but given that you still have full access to all the legacy tools I can't see it as a leap backwards at all.
It used to be an all too comment lament on these forums that tS crashed too often and wasn't stable enough. Those comments were accurate at the time they were made - any one still using tS 5 will still experience some occasional crashes. As someone who uses tS on an almost daily basis I can't remember the last time it crashed on me - which strikes me as being a direct result of the company listening to the users.
Well that's how I see it anyway. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 14, 2008, 3:47am
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Wizard !
What you said is no contradiction to what I said !
Caligari does listen to what the people post !
But thats just half of a discussion process.
Its the " Caligari talks to people " that is the limiting
factor in that regard and I am only talking about
new products.... not about the other problems .
Tom is always helpful about any 3d related questions.
It lacks the direct "questions" from the company regarding
workflow issues. How can we tell a company what we want if
we dont know what is relavent. Everything is like a big secret.....
But there IS no big secret .....
My strong belief is that good tools can only be trimmed or invented together with
the userbase.....( and not only the few betas ... )
Peter |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 14, 2008, 6:16am
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Then concept of what I was writing about is that there is a lot of emphasis on the "node" base aspect of trueSpace and not enough emphasis on the interface itself.
Having the various node icons is powerful and very capable, however, it is not intuitive work.
I imagine a new user with only 2D experience coming to trueSpace, only to find out that they can only do such and such with camera, if they go to the Link Editor, open a node, type in subroute(1), replay the sequence and then link that to some mysterious another node which requires some more script and then having to import yet another script to make the first script automatic, while linking it to a controller script of the scene and to the outside world, blah blah and blah.
Jeebus, all I wanted to do is turn the camera with the object kept in view!!
Talking about having to make three left turns first in order to make one right turn - that is the height of counter productivity.
Don't get me wrong, I suppose having this node based system is great for procedural animation, making widgets, making procedural shaders and etc. But you know, what if a user just wants to draw and do stuff?
There's a lot to be said about having little power rectangles that can link snake-like cables to other rectangles to make neat stuff. But what if I just want to turn on a light and not rewire the house in the process? |
Post by transient // Mar 14, 2008, 6:30am
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Where's that beating a dead horse gif? |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 14, 2008, 6:46am
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Total Posts: 2566
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Where's that beating a dead horse gif?
Yeah I know, but tired of not being productive.
I'm really, really close to permanently switching 3D software.
Just bought the Adobe Creative Suite 3 Production Premium package for 2D productivity, a few extra bucks thrown towards a 3D software that makes my efforts to produce said graphics easier is strongly in my mind.
We are doing 'great things' doesn't really let me know what's going with the software. |
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