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Worried...
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Post by joeldberry // Mar 14, 2008, 9:21am
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joeldberry
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Okay, I am going to be labeled a Doomsayer here. This message may end up being deleted, in fact, for my being a naysayer. I hope not. I like freedom of expression... and I think that my points have merit...
But personally, I view the Microsoft acquisition of Caligari as the touch of death for Truespace.
Why?
Really, three reasons.
First of all, Microsoft rarely (if ever) innovates. They buy out smaller companies and their products, usually in a reactionary way, too. In other words, "If a competitor is doing it, we need to do it, so rather than create from the ground up, we'll buy a company. That way we don't waste time. Only money, of which we have millions to spare."]
They are big enough. They can do that. Easily. Remember Access? Not Microsoft's. Frontpage? Not Microsoft's. And on and on.
Caligari, on the other hand (and really, Roman) has innovated for years. Trying new things. Experimenting. Looking to the future. Caligari is an innovative company. Microsoft is a reactionary company with little vision. They are scared to death and scrambling and scratching just to maintain their dominance. It's not about innovation, it's about domination with Microsoft.
Another reason. Remember, Microsoft actually HAD a 3D application a while back that was pretty amazing (once again, not theirs, but by acquisition). Remember it? In the early 90's? It was called SoftImage (still is, although under Avid's ownership now).
It went nowhere. Microsoft sold it off, too. Thank goodness. They could have just sat on the pretty advanced technology and killed it off like they have other products in the past...
Which brings me to my third reason. Remember in the mid 90's? When Flash (or "Future Splash") was just starting to catch on?
There was a little company's product called LiquidMotion that blew Flash out of the water. Microsoft bought it. Re-packaged it in Microsoft form as a "1.0" product. Then when they saw that it wasn't going to overtake Flash... THEY KILLED IT. DEAD. I am sure some LiquidMotion technology eventually made it into Expression products... Oh yeah, there's another product that Microsoft didn't create: Expression. It was bought, too. Fortunately, it has lived on... being used with such technologies as Silverlight... hey, wait a minute... isn't Silverlight supposed to compete with Flash? What? Is this LiquidMotion all over again??!?
So, my concern is that now that Caligari is under Microsoft control (yes, I realize that it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Microsoft, true, but pay attention to that one word: "owned." Microsoft can and will dictate where the technology goes, believe it...), obviously aimed at Google (3D and SketchUp) to partner with Microsoft Live Maps (against Google Earth), what if Google wins the war (like Flash did vs. Liquid Motion)?
If that happens, we could very well see Microsoft killing off TrueSpace and sitting on the technology, after it moves on to the next battlefront...
All I am saying is that it may not be necessarily a good thing for Microsoft to be backing Caligari's TrueSpace. It may in fact be the death of the product.
I could be wrong. I hope I am. TrueSpace is a cool app. And Caligari is a cool company.
I guess we'll find out one way or another. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 14, 2008, 10:50am
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jamesmc
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I guess we'll find out one way or another.
That's the usual way of finding out stuff... |
Post by joeldberry // Mar 14, 2008, 10:58am
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joeldberry
Total Posts: 5
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Thanks!
You just helped me reach my quota of getting smarta$$ remarks for the day! |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 14, 2008, 11:01am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Thanks!
You just helped me reach my quota of getting smarta$$ remarks for the day!
glad I could help... |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 14, 2008, 11:16am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Deleted by Paul. |
Post by joeldberry // Mar 14, 2008, 11:29am
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joeldberry
Total Posts: 5
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Yeah, I went back and found that after you mentioned it. I didn't see it on this first page of the forums. I probably should have posted my comments there... |
Post by possumpete // Mar 14, 2008, 12:07pm
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possumpete
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Yeah, I went back and found that after you mentioned it. I didn't see it on this first page of the forums. I probably should have posted my comments there...
There is a possible aspect to the whole Microsoft takeover that has not yet been noted (not that I have seen anyway). For the 6 or 8 months before the buyout I did seem to notice more dramatic sale prices on trueSpace products. There was a one day sale a couple of months ago that had tS 7.5 on sale for $199 (for an hour or 2 anyway). I found this shocking. This whole thing had me concerned at the time. It seemed to be a consistent pattern of bigger and bigger deals. They seemed to be giving the stuff away at times. I was starting to wonder if Caligari was having some trouble keeping sales up and wondering if it was even going to be around a year or 2 from now. I don't know if anyone else noticed this as well. The market for 3D software is about as competive as its ever been with all the large companies dropping prices and some offering non-pro versions at a song. Taken in this highly speculative light I was happy to hear of the buyout by MS. I would also like to note that I have visited Google Earth on 3 occasions in my life and Virtual Earth twice. This will not change if all that is going to be there to entice me is a mock world filled with a bunch of 'sketch up' houses. I'm sure that microsoft is aware of this and realize that dramatic content is required to float the project. This means that a full fledged package with cloth motion, physics and particle systems would be needed (maybe a watered down version might be available as well) to create the content that creates these worlds. There is no point in buying Caligari and turning trueSpace into Sketch-up. This would guarantee failure and I don't think that is their plan. I do believe the future is very bright for trueSpace and that we will be getting everything we hope for (at an accelerated rate in fact-brought about by the extra resources now available). Oh, and perhaps most importantly-you don't survive as long as Roman has survived without being one pushy 'SO you know what'. He loves this 3D stuff and he doesn't want some stupid Sketch Up world anymore than we do. He'll be fighting for the good stuff every step of the way. Companies that don't listen to 'the talent' don't last long-even MS knows this. Just my two cents. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 14, 2008, 12:27pm
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RAYMAN
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There is no point in buying Caligari and turning trueSpace into Sketch-up. ...... doesn't want some stupid Sketch Up world anymore than we do.
Heh hey hey .....wait a minute !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
Sketchup is a very good program and I´ve seen a ton of good stuff built
with it... as much as i´ve seen built with Truespace!
Its just a very specialised program and not a full suite and its not meant to be.Dont compare apples with Oranges
Peter |
Post by trueBlue // Mar 14, 2008, 1:01pm
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There is a possible aspect to the whole Microsoft takeover that has not yet been noted (not that I have seen anyway). For the 6 or 8 months before the buyout I did seem to notice more dramatic sale prices on trueSpace products. There was a one day sale a couple of months ago that had tS 7.5 on sale for $199 (for an hour or 2 anyway). I found this shocking. This whole thing had me concerned at the time. It seemed to be a consistent pattern of bigger and bigger deals. They seemed to be giving the stuff away at times. I was starting to wonder if Caligari was having some trouble keeping sales up and wondering if it was even going to be around a year or 2 from now. I don't know if anyone else noticed this as well. The market for 3D software is about as competive as its ever been with all the large companies dropping prices and some offering non-pro versions at a song. Taken in this highly speculative light I was happy to hear of the buyout by MS. I would also like to note that I have visited Google Earth on 3 occasions in my life and Virtual Earth twice. This will not change if all that is going to be there to entice me is a mock world filled with a bunch of 'sketch up' houses. I'm sure that microsoft is aware of this and realize that dramatic content is required to float the project. This means that a full fledged package with cloth motion, physics and particle systems would be needed (maybe a watered down version might be available as well) to create the content that creates these worlds. There is no point in buying Caligari and turning trueSpace into Sketch-up. This would guarantee failure and I don't think that is their plan. I do believe the future is very bright for trueSpace and that we will be getting everything we hope for (at an accelerated rate in fact-brought about by the extra resources now available). Oh, and perhaps most importantly-you don't survive as long as Roman has survived without being one pushy 'SO you know what'. He loves this 3D stuff and he doesn't want some stupid Sketch Up world anymore than we do. He'll be fighting for the good stuff every step of the way. Companies that don't listen to 'the talent' don't last long-even MS knows this. Just my two cents.
:jumpy:I agree and this is what I have suspected since the announcement. First thing I checked out was of course Virtual Earth and all of the software being used and created. They already have their SketchUp by way of VIA. Then I visited XNA and thought to myself... self?
Could this be in tS7v...'s future? I do not know but I am excited about what could be possible. There is an awful lot of amazing technologies being incorporated into VE. Exciting times for sure. |
Post by frootee // Mar 14, 2008, 1:12pm
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took me a minute to figure out what you were saying there blue... who's self? oh yeah...now I get it... late friday afternoon.... office is quiet... mind shuts down and gets dopey (that's me... my mind, not dopey... well maybe it is... . ok... coffee time... )
btw there's one video I didn't get on sale and that's the widgets video... I thought, I'll NEVER need that one! Well turns out I do. SOOOOoooo... maybe there'll be one more big sale with that... for $20!
I'm looking forward to see what all the hoopla regarding VE is about too. I think it's a good thing. Oh BTW.... I took Bill's G's office... he's cool with it... he's got his monster house anyways... :cool: |
Post by jayr // Mar 14, 2008, 2:48pm
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microsoft only bought Softimage to send the message that an NT platform could be used insted of a dedicated 3D workstation, so they got it to work on NT and look at the 3D world now, mostly PC based. So you could say microsoft were 100% successful with that idea, once they got what they wanted thay sold it on.
What will happen when they get what they want out of truespace i don't know but i can't see roman, a guy who's put his heart and soul into this software for years, just letting them bin it, we don't know what the contract he signed says remember |
Post by transient // Mar 14, 2008, 3:13pm
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This means that a full fledged package with cloth motion, physics and particle systems would be needed (maybe a watered down version might be available as well) to create the content that creates these worlds.
This is all very nice, but how many people will be able to look at this stuff? I have the best computer in my family, and it currently has a 6600gt card in it.
One of the creators of the unreal engine poured cold water on PC gaming recently, basically saying that most computers sold in 2008 don't have the minimum specs to run recent games. This is why consoles are becoming the go-to platform.
I give this 5 years before the magical stuff becomes a viable reality (although I remember saying this 5 years ago), and that's only if Microsoft persist this long. Given their reputation, you wouldn't want to put your house on it.
I agree that xna and 3d visualization is a viable niche, even now, but tS isn't set up for this purpose. It's all a bit weird imo, but then very little that happens in 3d land these days makes much sense to me. |
Post by prodigy // Mar 14, 2008, 4:09pm
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Microsoft is cool.. I have 3 MS natural Keyboards 3 Optical Mouses and 1 MS Track ball
Windows is cool
MSN Is cool
Flight Simulator is Coolest
Xbox is cool too..
DirectX is incredible
In other words microsoft is a quality company.. The problem is MS has entered in so many markets (OS, Hardware, Word proccess, Powerpoint, DB, MSN, XBox, etc..etc..etc.) that people start to think they want to monopolyze the world..
So there is when people refuse Microsoft.. Ms in not the only company on that path.. Adobe and Autodesk is another good example..
About Caligari And Microsoft?
So must hope Microsoft catch this nice piece of software and push it forward as they do with Powerpoint on the past.. Now powerpoint is a very nice software and much better than when it was from a external company
Let's see what they do with our lovely software.. but i guess must be something with quality :o |
Post by rjeff // Mar 14, 2008, 4:52pm
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Any one else ever fell that MS is really the Borg? Resistence is futile! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 14, 2008, 6:21pm
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Jack Edwards
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I was a bit ambivalent about the MS acquisition at first, but I'm feeling upbeat about it lately.
I agree with possumpete, while I don't think Caligari's money situation was dire, I think the financial situation may well have been closer to the not-so-good side of things. The huge advantage of the buyout is that money is no longer a problem and Caligari likely now has direct access to Microsoft resources that it couldn't have dreamed of having before the merger.
One area that may well benefit the most could be DirectX integration and Vista support. TrueSpace 7.5 already gives amazing direct access to the DX shader mechanics, wouldn't it'd be cool if TrueSpace becomes the first 3D authoring app to have native DX10 support on the same level as it's current DX9 support?
And what about superior X format support? Who would know the format better than the Microsoft devs who wrote it? Maybe we'll get a direct development pipeline for XNA? Maybe allowing TrueSpace to become a preferred development platform for XBox games?
TrueSpace maybe preparing to make the move from little guy on the block to one of the "Big Boys". The new Workspace side technology has brought trueSpace right up to the edge of being competitive with apps costing 10x as much, perhaps with Microsoft backing it's time to step up to the big leagues.
The question is, are we -- the userbase -- ready enough to take up that challenge and produce the quality of artwork that is needed to make that leap and to attract serious artists to take a second look at TrueSpace. |
Post by parva // Mar 15, 2008, 12:35am
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One of the creators of the unreal engine poured cold water on PC gaming recently, basically saying that most computers sold in 2008 don't have the minimum specs to run recent games. This is why consoles are becoming the go-to platform.
yeah that was a funny statement. Maybe in the US it's the case (with the low spec PC's) but no here in German/EU. Currently there is a offer from the discounter ALDI (one thing I will never understand, that I can buy PC's next to sausage and sour kraut) which is nearly the same as my PC I bought one year back (quadcore, 3gig ram, 8800gt gpu etc.) for 700 euro!
Maybe for those who want just gaming a console is better
but a PC can much more. Customizing and Modding in games, do this with a console. I personally have no video game console and I don't need it. The quality of the games has dropped in the last years and became mass market where everyone means to make fast money.
Regarding trueSpace.
I really wished that trueSpace would be a competitor for the "big boys" but I really doubt that this will ever happen. The direction of tS has moved and it's currently not an app you can compare with Modo, XSI or Cinema4D.
Lack of base features, still many bugs etc.
It's still a patchwork program but an really unfinished one and I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel that all this "patchwork" will fuse to a solid "a unified whole" product.
Sure it may be the lack of developers. The work the current crew does is amazing sure, but the amount of work, the priority and what a user really needs are different things and I doubt that a trueSpace developer has every used tS as tool for a commercial product.
He would see that it's nearly impossible to work with.
Take SILO as example. 2 guyes working on it and even version 2 is not exactly what I had expected even if the workflow is still amazing.
They have imho burden to much had her shoulder. Add this feature, adding this adding this etc. but loosing the base context.
Sometimes it's better to make less but perfect, as to make much half done.
Maybe someone understand what I mean, agree or disagree but this is my current view of point.
Thanks for wasting your time :D |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 15, 2008, 2:38am
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Yep Parva, the price of PC's are way down. In a Dell magazine I just got, the 6600 quad core, 3gb is 799 dollars U.S. or about 513 Euros.
"I really wished that trueSpace would be a competitor for the "big boys" but I really doubt that this will ever happen. The direction of tS has moved and it's currently not an app you can compare with Modo, XSI or Cinema4D.
Lack of base features, still many bugs etc."
A good analysis Parva and one that I have observed myself.
The Link Editor concept is a novel approach and very powerful, but for most users wanting to be or who are 3D artists, it doesn't really add much to smooth work flow and productivity.
Someone made a comment earlier, forgot who, it's like we have taken a step back. This reminds me of the days of old Microsoft BASIC, if one want to do graphics, you had to code it yourself. Call me lazy or uninspired, but that was twenty-five years ago and many GUI interfaces ago! I'm getting too long in the tooth to start all over again in learning programming languages just to draw a rectangle and make it red by coding in some script language.
Norm's previous comments about users writing scripts and doing other things to improve trueSpace doesn't really inspire me either. Talk about 'unknown quantities'!
That makes me think, "Here I am on a desert road, holding a gas can, hoping for someone to drive by and help me out before I die of thirst."
Yeah so, I am an old curmudgeon, but not too old I can't enjoy myself doing graphics. My approach now is that I want to do it right away and get some viable results I can put into my own personal productions - bug free.
I really thought computer graphics would have advanced way farther than it has by now. It's like, where have all the great and innovative coders gone? Then I thought, it's not really the coders, but the program designers. Then I thought, well maybe it's not really the designers, it's the marketers seeking fame and fortune. Then I thought, I really don't know what I'm talking about and confusing myself with the facts.
Regardless, there is a transition period here and not sure where I'm heading, but to use a an all inclusive phrase of Larry the Cable Guy - I just want to sit down at the computer and
"Gitter done!" |
Post by Steinie // Mar 15, 2008, 4:25am
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Parva, two things you said that I agree with 100%.
1) TS has bugs or broken tools getting overlooked by innovation.
2) I love Sour Kraut and Sausage too!
Silo2 is another example of adding innovation and losing core features. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 15, 2008, 4:54am
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RAYMAN
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Parva, two things you said that I agree with 100%.
1) TS has bugs or broken tools getting overlooked by innovation.
2) I love Sour Kraut and Sausage too!
Silo2 is another example of adding innovation and losing core features.
I definitly dont like Sauerkraut and Sausage in a 3d program !;)
Peter |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 15, 2008, 6:07am
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So there's this guy right, and he starts a small company. After a while it becomes a big company and then one of the biggest ever - does this make him some Dark Lord bent on World Domination or just a very savvy leader?
There's this other guy who starts a small company and keeps it small, prefering to follow his vision for 20-something years. When the big company guy buys out the little company guy it's natural for us all to wonder what's going on.
Is Roman playing Saruman to Bill Gates' Sauron? Well I doubt it's that simple.
What is simple is to see Microsoft is a very successful company - as Prodigy points out so well. Yes they've bought up other software companies - some of these acquisitions have become cornerstones of the MS empire - others couldn't cut it and so were discarded, and rightfully so.
If it should eventuate that tS can't cut it and also gets discarded - that's the way it goes. Survival of the fittest (or even intelligent design in action) means some organisms/organisations succeed and some don't.
Personally I don't think tS will go away anytime soon - for all it's failings and teething troubles and growing pains it's just too damn good and too unique to just vanish - which is why one of histories most successful companies bought it.
There's been a lot of speculation about why MS bought Caligari - I've speculated on this myself - I think it's possible they want truePlay as the Microsoft default 3d browser of the future 3d web and that as part of the deal they have to support Romans ongoing plans for trueSpace. I also think that all the speculation being done will almost certainly be incorrect in some vital way simply because none of us have the full story and none of us have a working crystal ball.
No matter which way the cookie crumbles it'll be interesting to see what happens next and it's a certainty that whatever it is that happens, some people will like it and some people won't.
One thing is certain - we live in interesting times!:D |
Post by tSplorer // Mar 15, 2008, 11:32am
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In my opinion, what Microsoft bought was Caligari's 3d technology in order to build a more "immersive...Web experience" for users of the Live Maps service comparable to Google's.
The fact that they're negotiating to buy Yahoo means that they're trying to compete with Google big time. I think MS don't give a hoot about TrueSpace or any 3D app for that matter. The fact that they gave up XSI, which is a more established one. |
Post by kena // Mar 15, 2008, 8:29pm
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...
The Link Editor concept is a novel approach and very powerful, but for most users wanting to be or who are 3D artists, it doesn't really add much to smooth work flow and productivity.
As for this... I found the new interface of 7 to be a steeper learning curve than 6. But, I now use the Link editor to excluslivly organize my work. I am able to move the nodes around and arrange them in a logical order for me. It makes it easier to find "lost objects". I have a habit of making something, then pushing it out of view, or making it invasible to work on the next stage, then forgetting it's there. With Link editor, I can immediatly see that something is around that I don't need and I can get rid of it without having to reposition the camera to find it.
I really, really, really like the link editor.
In my opinion, what Microsoft bought was Caligari's 3d technology in order to build a more "immersive...Web experience" for users of the Live Maps service comparable to Google's.
The fact that they're negotiating to buy Yahoo means that they're trying to compete with Google big time. I think MS don't give a hoot about TrueSpace or any 3D app for that matter. The fact that they gave up XSI, which is a more established one.
A valid opinion. Don't know that it's 100% accurate, but that does not make the opinion invalid. The truth is that we have no idea what the full reason for buying TS is. Nor do we know the full reason for Roman selling.
I work for a company that spent 15 years paring down for the express purpose of getting bought by someone else. we were fully aware of what was going on within the company, and expected an uncertain future. We are now part of a new company.
I have said for the past 15 years "I will continue to work here until they stop paying me. When they stop, I refuse to work here anymore." I keep my resume current and I keep an eye out for what else is out there so I do not have to scramble should that happen.
Same can be said for TS. I will continue to use TS as long as it gives me what I want, but if it stops, I will refuse to use it anymore.
That is all a consumer can do. Otherwise, it's business as usual until business changes. Then we go where we can feel comfortable again. I've looked at a lot of products, and I have settled on Vue as a good backup for now. I may get one or two more 3D programs just in case as well. But I will still use TS until it no longer fulfills my requirements. |
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