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The future of Caligari?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
The future of Caligari? // Roundtable
Post by Blue Bellyfluff // Mar 26, 2008, 12:08am
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Blue Bellyfluff
Total Posts: 19
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My two cents...
As far as I know Caligari has always been carefull with sharing information.
As far as I know things on the website sometimes bugged and did not work as it should.
As far as I know Truespace always has been buggy here and there.
As far as I know, I know that it is annoying me starting every sentence with 'as far as I know'...
Now I think that it can only benefit Caligari when they colaborate with the microsoft pose. The number one thing stopping Truespace from being a big player (as Roman always proclaimed it to be) is money. Plain and simple. If any coorporation has the big money...well...you do the math.
The number one argument for me to use Truespace was the ease of use. Second was the money. If you need assurance a 3D program will excist for the next 20 years...use softimage or 3D max and spend the money and time accordingly.
In short, have a little trust in Caligari. I have no fear whatsoever that Microsoft will abbandon and shelf it. I think Truespace now has a potentional to reach bigger audiences. I only hope they keep their priorities straight and invest in some basic features still vacant from my build (7.51). |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 26, 2008, 2:40am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I think an eight year old would know by now why people are getting pissed. Why it goes over your head is anyone's guess.
You don't have to guess why it goes over my head Transient - it's because no one has really given me a reasonable explanation or reason to get pissed in the first place. I think people are getting pissed because they have unrealistic expectations. I believe my expectations are more realistic and I'm not pissed. :D
Snide remarks like this are all very clever and sophisticated but they do nothing to educate me or enlighten me.
If people are getting pissed because they are not getting their own way, that's fair enough. But blaming someone else for our individual emotional choices is far closer to eight year old behaviour than my advocating a positive outlook and reasoned discussion.
Perhaps this forum gets as little traffic as it does because people are tired of all the negativity and unfounded doomsaying that goes on here? I know it gets me down far more than a company not telling me stuff inappropriately just because I demand it based on something I bought from them once. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 26, 2008, 3:18am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Sorry but I don't gleefully accept some of these responses. TrueSpace was suppose to break thru in version 7- on and get into the big leagues. The big boys issue bug fixes and actually list what was fixed. They actually address the bugs with the users and try to fix them. Here too much is dependent on the Beta team catching the bugs or the Beta team relaying the message. The user feels like a deaf mute. If we receive bug fixes in the next release then users have a right to ask about the next release and hence know if Caligari is going to be around to deliver the next release.
Obviously the direction of Caligari is shifting without a word spoken. What happen to ProTeam? What happen to their Gaming software? Some of their Paks disappeared, ISpace ?
I would hate to buy software from a Company with a Sale sign in front.
When I use tS and it is missing features my feeling is "thats ok because this will be addressed in the next release" I put up with it's weaknesses. However if the focus has changed and the vibe is "you already have what you paid for" (even with broken, or missing tools) I would switch to other Software where it is actively being corrected, improved and where I feel they are listening.
Silo and UVMapper are very good at telling the users what is going on. To me Customer Communication is VERY important. (good or bad)
To hide behind silence is a slap in my face. |
Post by hultek43 // Mar 26, 2008, 5:41am
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hultek43
Total Posts: 234
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A computer is like a toolbox to an extent, it is also a machine. It can be a valuable asset or it can be just another expensive toy. The software could be compared to wrenches in that same toolbox or to the drills in a drill index. Many types and styles of drills are made for drilling many different materials. So far, since getting a computer, I have learned much at great expense. Too bad the schools I could have paid for this knowledge got nothing, I could have a degree by now with the money and time spent. That would be something of worth in the real world; it would enhance my marketability and earning potential as well. The School of Hard Knocks doesn't offer a degree as far as I know or have been able to determine thus far. |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2008, 6:00am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Ah, but what is a piece of paper worth compared to a course in the University of life?
Mmm, we are getting off topic again aren't we. |
Post by hultek43 // Mar 26, 2008, 6:20am
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hultek43
Total Posts: 234
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The degree alone is no guarantee of a job; most companies are looking for people that have several years of experience as well as that degree. They desire people that have the necessary qualifications. Their job postings are worded to narrow down the number of applicants they have to wade through for 'a body' to fill that position which is or soon will be open. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 26, 2008, 6:41am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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The degree alone is no guarantee of a job; most companies are looking for people that have several years of experience as well as that degree. They desire people that have the necessary qualifications. Their job postings are worded to narrow down the number of applicants they have to wade through for 'a body' to fill that position which is or soon will be open.
Every job I've ever gotten was by knowing someone in a company, having a relative in a company or a contact in a network of associates.
Probably doesn't say much about me, but the other jobs where I wasn't hired, no one knew me, didn't know anyone that knew me and I had no friends or relatives working there.
Or, that is just life. :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 26, 2008, 6:42am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Sorry but I don't gleefully accept some of these responses. TrueSpace was suppose to break thru in version 7- on and get into the big leagues. The big boys issue bug fixes and actually list what was fixed. They actually address the bugs with the users and try to fix them. Here too much is dependent on the Beta team catching the bugs or the Beta team relaying the message. The user feels like a deaf mute. If we receive bug fixes in the next release then users have a right to ask about the next release and hence know if Caligari is going to be around to deliver the next release.
Obviously the direction of Caligari is shifting without a word spoken. What happen to ProTeam? What happen to their Gaming software? Some of their Paks disappeared, ISpace ?
I would hate to buy software from a Company with a Sale sign in front.
When I use tS and it is missing features my feeling is "thats ok because this will be addressed in the next release" I put up with it's weaknesses. However if the focus has changed and the vibe is "you already have what you paid for" (even with broken, or missing tools) I would switch to other Software where it is actively being corrected, improved and where I feel they are listening.
Silo and UVMapper are very good at telling the users what is going on. To me Customer Communication is VERY important. (good or bad)
To hide behind silence is a slap in my face.
Fair enough Bob, if that's how you see it. Maybe you know something more than me, maybe I missed something but it seems to me that tS did in fact break through in version 7. It was also made clear at the time that the program was not complete and was still undergoing development. Anyone who didn't know that when they signed the cheque simply did not do their homework.
I've personally never believed the whole "big league" thing. I never seen anything from Caligari saying TrueSpace was intended to compete in a market niche already covered by Maya, Lightwave and other accepted industry leaders. IIRC trueSpace was advertised as a cheaper cost effective alternative designed to allow people like you and me to enter a 3d world without having to mortgage the house or sell a kidney! (Obviously I'm paraphrasing somewhat!).
I just bought a mid-range digital camera - it does what it does well and provides satisfactory value for money but it is not a top of the range Nikon! Same with tS. It's a reasonably useful mid-range tool but it's not Maya. Given this isn't it unreasonable to compare tS with the 'big boys'? If you want top professional level tools with top professional level development and service then I think you should expect to pay top professional level prices.
"The user feels like a deaf mute" - Well how do you explain the fact that when I mentioned it would be nice to have a hot key for scrubbing through animations - a casual 'by the way' comment, a Caligari person, acting on his own initiative, took that suggestion to the development team?
"If we receive bug fixes in the next release then users have a right to ask about the next release and hence know if Caligari is going to be around to deliver the next release". Maybe I'm just dense but I don't see any logic behind this statement, sorry. Seems to me the company belongs to someone - whether it be Roman or MS or someone else. The owner of any company has the right to decide what to tell the public, what aspects of their product to develop or to leave as is, what direction overall the company is going to take. The company, any company belongs to it's owner or shareholders, not to it's customers.
I suppose a customer has the right to ask for information but to expect an answer is simply unrealistic.
I buy gas from my local Shell Oil outlet - I spend a lot of my money on that gas, I depend on it. The price of gas keeps rising - should I now demand that the CEO of Shell Oil explain to me why the price of gas has continued to rise? It's long been known that gas fumes and exhaust fumes are harmful - should I demand to know why Shell Oil hasn't fixed the 'bug' in their gas so that exhaust fumes are no longer dangerous to breathe? Sure I have a right to ask - but they are under absolutely no obligation to respond.
I've been self employed - I still do various free-lance things. One example is I teach guitar lessons. Harry is one of my students - his parents pay good money for my teaching services. Let's say I get an offer of a better job which means that I can no longer provide that service for Harry? How much information am I actually obliged to give him? I'd say very little - I should tell him, as soon as things are definite for me, that I can no longer provide the commodity he has been buying from me.
He'll be bummed out for a while until he finds another guitar teacher - he has the right to ask me why I can no longer teach him but I am under no obligation to tell him.
Re "Obviously the direction of Caligari is shifting without a word spoken." Hasn't this always been the case?How many of us users of tS 6.6 were asking for realtime 3d environments and shared spaces? Not many if any. How many were asking for a better bones system and render engines that could do caustics and SSS and so on? Caligari has not only listened and provided those things - bones, V-ray etc - in a mid range 3d application but has also - without telling us anything about it beforehand, added realtime rendering, node editing and unparalleled ability for users to build other functionality themselves - something they did 'without a word being spoken' beforehand.
"To hide behind silence is a slap in the face"? How? Surely making premature announcements that turn out to be unsupportable is far more a slap in the face. Additionally they have not hidden behind silence - you exaggerate the reality. Roman clearly stated MS had bought Caligari. He said the future looked 100% brighter for trueSpace and trueSpace users - he said he is unable to tell us more at the moment and has asked us to bear with them until such time as plans are finalised and definitive statements can safely be made, He has said that development is continuing as before on tS 7.6 - if that's your definition of silence ... well I really don't know what to say to you. How anyone can construe Romans clear announcements as a slap in the face is completely beyond me - and you guys wonder why they don't say anything!
Roman: "Hi guys I've got great news and I'll tell you all about it as soon as I can, in the meantime nothing has changed and progress is still being made".
Steinie: "I have a right to know and not telling me is a slap in the face"
Roman: "Mwa ha ha! My cunning plan to slap Steinies face has worked! Now, on with my master plan to take over Microsoft and rule the world!"
OK, so I exaggerate for dramatic effect - it seems to be an accepted form of communication around here - Bob I consider you a friend and I have a great deal of respect for you (and your art) and if I'm being honest with you - which I believe you deserve - I have to say it looks to me as if you have some seriously unrealistic expectations here.
I understand folk are keen to know more - I understand they are frustrated and I understand why. No one likes to feel powerless or kept in the dark. I have to say that dramatic inflationary and reactionary language does nothing to help anyone. |
Post by frootee // Mar 26, 2008, 7:13am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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So I was reading War and Peace the other day... :D
Oh! We're back! :D
To add to this, another reason for Caligari's absence of communication is this. Even Roman posted about it in his blog I believe. At one point in time, I think before 7.0 was released, information was shared with the forum members here about what was to be included in 7.0. Well, some items were not included. Also, some tools did not work *Precisely* the way they were described previously. The result was, the forum members complained. Incessantly.
Lesson Learned by Caligari: Don't make announcements until Caligari is absolutely sure about the facts. Otherwise, mass complaining will ensue.
And to finish, yep, I'm looking forward to new information as well. But, I would rather hear the finished, complete truth One Time, and One Time Only, rather than a continuous stream of modifications of previous statements. This would cause even more confusion and complaining. Does that make sense? Yes? No? :cool: |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 26, 2008, 8:22am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Hey from what I read here some of you guys must be pretty unhappy
about the situation your in ????? !!!!!
I´m happy with what I have. I have enough stuff to keep
me ocupied for at least 10 years now. If I get an update .... fine.:)
Did I go out and buy much expensive software ... well no !
Theres tons of nice and good and not to expensive things around
the place some even free.:)
Not that I understand everything Caligari did ( like forgetting about
light controls - workspace etc ) and that I "like" to restart Ts sometimes ....
When you´ve read 3D world quite often some of you guys including
myself must have quite an arsenal of good and free stuff to play with ...
They had xfrog and Realflow and Worldbuilder and Carrara Pro 5 etc.
If you guys would look around the place more often and sometimes
realise that some of us are pointing you to some goodies I think you
would have enough to learn until your last day !;)
Peter |
Post by aidanodr // Mar 26, 2008, 10:49am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Intwesting:
http://ve3d.spaces.live.com/default.aspx
Watch this space I reckon ..
Aidan |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 26, 2008, 11:21am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Some of their Paks disappeared...
Steinie, I only noticed this yesterday when a member on the Clickteam forums asked a question about TrueSpace. Only a few weeks back, Caligari were selling all these packs in their Door Buster sale. Now most of them are gone. I find this very uneasy and it also raises alarm bells. Just what is going on?!? |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 26, 2008, 11:37am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Paul how old are these Paks ?
Whats so dramatic about that ?
Some of those plugs are old and some dont even work with the future
line .... so thats not alarming !;)
We have more change in this forum then in the company !
Marks gone :confused:....... lots of realtime activities have vanished etc.
Peter |
Post by possumpete // Mar 26, 2008, 11:47am
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possumpete
Total Posts: 4
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Steinie, I only noticed this yesterday when a member on the Clickteam forums asked a question about TrueSpace. Only a few weeks back, Caligari were selling all these packs in their Door Buster sale. Now most of them are gone. I find this very uneasy and it also raises alarm bells. Just what is going on?!?
Paul,
All of the Paks show up and are for sale when you access 'plugins' from tS 6.6 page (except for ispace). Most don't show up (only conversion paks do) when you come into 'plugins' from tS7.5. They appear to still be for sale as far as I can tell. Might want to check again.
Cheers |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 26, 2008, 11:59am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Hi Peter.
Thanks for your reply. I use to highlight those addon packs to others, in particulary the AniPak for animation. Yesterday when I saw they were gone, I was stunned. I accept that these are old and some of the tools didn't work with 7.5, but they were great addon's for TrueSpace. The fact that they are gone, and disappeared without any mention by Caligari, to me says the powerbase for TrueSpace has shrunk. My own website, KnightTrek Productions, is by no means as big a commercial company as Caligari, but when I pull a piece of old software, I post it to my Home page and send it out in my news letter so folks know what's happening. Since the buyout, features have disappeared, left, right and centre, with no word on why or what's going on!?!
You take the majority of other 3D apps and hop over to Amazon and you'll find a load of books to help you out. There hasn't been a new TrueSpace book since version 4. And now the power packs to add to your TrueSpace tools are also gone. From what I read by others, iSpace and GameSpace are also gone. And buying into ProTeam is also gone! The wealth of tools on offer on the Caligari site has shrunk since the Microsoft buyout and none of our questions are being answered. Roman has said the future is bright, but it doesn't look bright to me :(.
I'm trying to follow Wizard's post, and being positive, but its hard when you find another part of our community has disappeared and no feedback comes from Caligari at all.
:confused: |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 26, 2008, 12:01pm
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Paul,
All of the Paks show up and are for sale when you access 'plugins' from tS 6.6 page (except for ispace). Most don't show up (only conversion paks do) when you come into 'plugins' from tS7.5. They appear to still be for sale as far as I can tell. Might want to check again.
Cheers
Thanks, Possumpete, but where???
http://www.caligari.com/store/Plugins/tSdefault.asp?SubCate=S2plugins&Cate=STtSPlugins
I don't see them any more. |
Post by possumpete // Mar 26, 2008, 12:10pm
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possumpete
Total Posts: 4
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Hi Peter.
Thanks for your reply. I use to highlight those addon packs to others, in particulary the AniPak for animation. Yesterday when I saw they were gone, I was stunned. I accept that these are old and some of the tools didn't work with 7.5, but they were great addon's for TrueSpace. The fact that they are gone, and disappeared without any mention by Caligari, to me says the powerbase for TrueSpace has shrunk. My own website, KnightTrek Productions, is by no means as big a commercial company as Caligari, but when I pull a piece of old software, I post it to my Home page and send it out in my news letter so folks know what's happening. Since the buyout, features have disappeared, left, right and centre, with no word on why or what's going on!?!
You take the majority of other 3D apps and hop over to Amazon and you'll find a load of books to help you out. There hasn't been a new TrueSpace book since version 4. And now the power packs to add to your TrueSpace tools are also gone. From what I read by others, iSpace and GameSpace are also gone. And buying into ProTeam is also gone! The wealth of tools on offer on the Caligari site has shrunk since the Microsoft buyout and none of our questions are being answered. Roman has said the future is bright, but it doesn't look bright to me :(.
I'm trying to follow Wizard's post, and being positive, but its hard when you find another part of our community has disappeared and no feedback comes from Caligari at all.
:confused:
Paul
I think I spoke to soon. A thought occurred to me and so I went back to look again. The Pak web pages are accessible from tS 6.6 product page but when you try to click on the 'buy' button nothing happens. This appears to be the case for all 4 of them. They do appear to be gone. Maybe you were correct in your worrying. I'm kidding-there are newer and better tools down the road-just wait you'll see. We'll find out something of what is in store in the near future.
Peter
Edit...Paul the way I was getting there was through 'store' then 'tS 6.6' then 'plugins'...they do show up and so do their web pages-just not for purchase apparently. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 26, 2008, 12:15pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Paul its still there .... you access it from the TS6.6 pages ...
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/ts5/plugins/caligari/AniPack/default.asp?Cate=Caligari
;)
Peter |
Post by 2much4U // Mar 26, 2008, 1:44pm
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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Wow! This thread is getting a much larger amount of activity than I expected! Sorry I couldn't join in the debate sooner, I had some personal things to take care of.
Anyway, I don't expect Caligari to answer my questions no matter what - And thats just the problem! CaliCorp has gotten so quiet that it's not something I would expect to happen, period. In fact, I doubt that Caligari will respond to this thread for quite some time, and it's quite upsetting to be left in the dark like this.
I know that statements have been made, but all that we've really heard is that "Things are running smoothly and details will eventually be released." Unfortunately, this was said quite some time ago. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 26, 2008, 2:09pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Geez guys. Are you spending all day combing links looking for signs that the vultures are overhead and the writing is on the wall? Wouldn't that time be better spent modeling or rendering something?
My guess is that some of the technology and software that Caligari licensed for the paks and other things that have "disappeared" were non-transferable and since the licenses are not transferable to Microsoft, those products are no longer available. Like Peter said a lot of that stuff was REALLY old and many of the original authors aren't even in business any more.
Everyone at Caligari is VERY busy and working very hard. If you don't/won't/can't believe me, and it's giving you ulcers worrying: I recommend downloading a copy of Blender and giving Justin's great video tutorials for Blender a whirl:
http://www.scatteredpixel.com/files/Page1.html
$12.50 is a pretty good deal for that peace of mind and and feeling of security some of you seem to be missing. ;)
In the meantime lets stop gnashing teeth and get back to making cool 3D art and practicing our 3D skills. |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 26, 2008, 5:21pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I agree with Jack. Caligari would presumably have legally binding contracts with the makers of the various 3rd party Paks. Those contracts would be with Caligari Corporation and not with Caligari, subsidiary of Microsoft. Thrashing out new contracts with all those people will be incredibly time consuming and - quite possibly - not financially viable given that those 3rd party add-ons were made for the legacy architecture which we all know (because Caligari told us;)) is being steadily phased out.
It could be that drawing up new contracts like this is part of the reason Caligari are unable to comment at the moment.
It could also be part of the ongoing plan for the companies development that would have happened anyway regardless of the Microsoft purchase.
It could mean that Caligari is being slowly dismantled and will eventually cease to exist.
It could be a clear sign of the end of the world as we know it and the birth of a new anti-christ!
It could be good news, it could be bad news - the only certainty we have is that we don't know. I choose to see it as probably being more on the good side rather than the bad side. Why? It's simply more fun to be optimistic.:D
Y'all have a nice day now ya hear?
Love and fuzzies
Leo Tolstoy |
Post by frootee // Mar 26, 2008, 5:57pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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It could be a clear sign of the end of the world as we know it and the birth of a new anti-christ!
Did you need something? :p
JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING!
BTW Love the Leo man! :D |
Post by Steinie // Mar 27, 2008, 1:55am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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April 30th, 2007, do you know what that day means? The release date of trueSpace 7.5. We were actually told that it would be released within 30 days of March 22nd of that year.
I wonder if 7.6 release date will be handled the same way? Will it hit the same anniversary release date?
Even Leo Tolstoy doesn't know that answer yet.:p |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 27, 2008, 10:11am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Paul its still there .... you access it from the TS6.6 pages ...
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/ts5/plugins/caligari/AniPack/default.asp?Cate=Caligari
;)
Peter
Thanks, Peter, I stand corrected.
To Caligari:
It would be nice to be told what's happening in regards to website changes. As I said above, when I make changes to my small website, I notify folks of it. Because I saw the packs were gone from their regular place, and because of events the past few months and the new found silence from you, I have directed a number of folks off looking at TrueSpace for their 3D work and sent them to other 3D software. I use to sing TrueSpace's praise but I can't do it at the moment, which is a shame :(. |
Post by Paul Boland // Mar 27, 2008, 10:13am
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Paul Boland
Total Posts: 383
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Oops!! Peter, just noticed you can't buy them either. The Buy button is disabled :confused::(. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 27, 2008, 10:41am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Some are available, some are not.
Only way to tell is to hover over/click the 'Buy' button.
I didn't press further to see if the transaction could actually be completed.
Rhyme? Reason?
I didn't see either of those.
Hurry up and wait, it's all you can do. |
Post by JimB // Mar 27, 2008, 10:52am
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JimB
Total Posts: 341
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I have resisted posting in this thread of negativity but I would just like to say that I am hanging on to Romans statement that the future is bright for TS,and oddly enough I believe him :)
I'm sure we all know deep down that it is likely that Roman and his staff cannot tell us whats going on behind the scenes, and after all we have no right to any information untill there is a public statement anyway.I think this is a case of a burning curiosity thats turning rapidly in to paranoia :cool:
Jim |
Post by v3rd3 // Mar 27, 2008, 11:47am
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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Just cuz your paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you..... :D:D:D
Patience will prevail... |
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