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Brand loyalty?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Brand loyalty? // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Mar 30, 2008, 12:15am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Just playing devil's advocate here as I am spending most of my free time this last week with other software. Not as a knee jerk reaction to the 'Microsoft news', but in the search for some new inspiration through different features.
In between projects I used to like testing tS but find that I have exhausted many of the features I wish to use. I have spent many hours trying to get realistic skin and hair.
I have mentioned Carrara in this forum and even posted an image from that program, but I have seen threads edited in the past for mentioning other software yet there is an acceptance of mentioning 'complimentary' software, yet I do not understand what defines complimentary.
Hexagon is a modeller and Vue is usually for landscale/vegetation and both seem alright to mention (even do a tutorial using one of them!) But Bryce was once just for landscapes but can now be used to model a whole scene.
I have Carrara now, which was seen as a competitor to tS in the many comparison charts and features. Carrara is like Bryce, Hexagon and the old Carrara (amapi?) thrown together. It clearly compliments my use of tS as I imported a head model made in tS then added SSS and hair before rendering.
But is this complimentary; that I am using hair in another program, effectively writing off tS' ability to do it properly, same with SSS?
There are many other features in Carrara that I would love to see in tS but I do fear that these will not be implemented in tS now. I am not paranoid but I cannot see the immediate use for dynamic hair in Virtual Earth when there are other features that may need developing.
So, to save me getting a warning, and others, how do we know what software we can discuss freely here without breaking the 'rules'?
I remain a loyal tS user (I need to for speed ;)) but I want to drive a 4x4 or sports car once in a while, not just the trusty family MPV. |
Post by parva // Mar 30, 2008, 1:32am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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Why do you want to discuss other products here?
Every CG program has it's own forum and for those which use many different programs there are also forums around in the net.
Personally I have no problem with it :D
but there this is the site from Caligari it makes sense to talk primarly about Caligari products.
Of course except requestion of features and wishes and that stuff.
Finally the user must find the program (or programs) where he can best work in. Even if this means that you have to drop a program from your list (and a pity but I know some people who dropped trueSpace out of there program list in the last month).
Just playing devil's advocate here as I am spending most of my free time this last week with other software. Not as a knee jerk reaction to the 'Microsoft news', but in the search for some new inspiration through different features.
In between projects I used to like testing tS but find that I have exhausted many of the features I wish to use. I have spent many hours trying to get realistic skin and hair.
I have mentioned Carrara in this forum and even posted an image from that program, but I have seen threads edited in the past for mentioning other software yet there is an acceptance of mentioning 'complimentary' software, yet I do not understand what defines complimentary.
Hexagon is a modeller and Vue is usually for landscale/vegetation and both seem alright to mention (even do a tutorial using one of them!) But Bryce was once just for landscapes but can now be used to model a whole scene.
I have Carrara now, which was seen as a competitor to tS in the many comparison charts and features. Carrara is like Bryce, Hexagon and the old Carrara (amapi?) thrown together. It clearly compliments my use of tS as I imported a head model made in tS then added SSS and hair before rendering.
But is this complimentary; that I am using hair in another program, effectively writing off tS' ability to do it properly, same with SSS?
There are many other features in Carrara that I would love to see in tS but I do fear that these will not be implemented in tS now. I am not paranoid but I cannot see the immediate use for dynamic hair in Virtual Earth when there are other features that may need developing.
So, to save me getting a warning, and others, how do we know what software we can discuss freely here without breaking the 'rules'?
I remain a loyal tS user (I need to for speed ;)) but I want to drive a 4x4 or sports car once in a while, not just the trusty family MPV. |
Post by transient // Mar 30, 2008, 2:26am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I have Carrara now, which was seen as a competitor to tS in the many comparison charts and features.
While I am bemused by the situation here, I still much prefer tS, especially 6.6 (or 6.6 plus, which is how I'm using 7.5) to Carrara, although it wins the easy to learn award.
I already use other software and despite the fact I'm not sure about the new tS, I still really enjoy the 6.6 mode. I'm having a lot of fun going through all of the cool free plug-ins like shaderlab, shadermagic, motion studio, primal particles etc. etc.
To get the same functionality these provide in Carrara, if you can get them at all, you have to pay (hundreds all up). There are a few plug-ins that Carrara has that I wish tS did, but not many.
Not that Carrara's a bad app, but I think it would be a step down for the more experienced users here for most uses, especially if you add dribble to the equation.
I think maybe one problem with tS is that there are many cool plug-ins and tips that are ferreted away in dead sites and old forum posts. It's taken me a long time to find them all, let alone learn them, and I think many of the more casual users wouldn't bother.
I mean I just found out that lightworks does pretty decent GI with a shader plug-in called Fast GI. It's really not bad, from my initial experiments. But I only found it by accident when I was trawling the old forums for Shadermagic info. |
Post by splinters // Mar 30, 2008, 2:48am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Why do you want to discuss other products here?
Every CG program has it's own forum and for those which use many different programs there are also forums around in the net.
Isn't that my point though Parva? Every forum I have been to discussed other software (often in comparitive terms) with no problem. What are the actual limitations on doing the same here?
I simply used Carrara as an example of something I cannot do in tS (hint, hint) even though the function is technically there. Match the SSS and hair that I have made in Carrara (in a very short time) ini tS and I would probably never need to use it again.
It was, after all, a Sunday morning rant...it has been rather quiet around here lately...:rolleyes: |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 30, 2008, 3:30am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Paul using software should not be ranting......
its just using software. I have a big pool to pick from and
thats just what I am doing... using it.
And above all helping other people who want my help!
Talking about another product B doesnt change the product A !
I use what I have and all I can use is the state of product
it is in realy. Truespace has a lot to offer and if I use another software with
it .... well that should be OK !
and if you give people hints about software that is free and can be used "with" Truespace well ... why should a helpfull hand and showing people
possibilities be wrong ?;)
I know of all the other forums that I frequent that pointing people to tips
and tricks - be it some other free or good software is always welcome.:D
Peter |
Post by Ambrose // Mar 30, 2008, 3:30am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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The discussions has been quite free as long as you don't advertise or recomend another program instead of TS.
As long as it's another tool in the tool box Norm is quite ok with it and when he removes it's usually has a cause, even if it sometimes looks bad...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 30, 2008, 4:03am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I think Ambrose has it covered - it's one thing to say "program X does this and works alongside trueSpace". It's another thing to say "trueSpace is rubbish, you should replace it with Program X".
I've been a member here and at the old forums for a while now and I've seen all sorts of software - even sound software - freely discussed. Caligari as a company has never struck me as exclusive or prohibitive - you can even be selected to go in the monthly galleries with renders from totally different software provided you can show the trueSpace was a significant part of the process.
Roman even once asked me to submit some Vue renders which featured a lot of models built in and transferred from trueSpace.
And speaking of cool software that has nothing to do with trueSpace is there anyone else out there using the latest version of Safari for their web browsing? I'm a newly converted fan - it is very fast, easily faster than IE or Firefox (both of which I use).
For getting around these forums Safari rocks IMHO - it even allows you to resize this little 'message' window I'm typing in now.
Getting back on topic - when I started with tS (5.1) I also looked at the Carrara version available at that time. Given my limited budget it was going to be one or the other - and trueSpace just seemed cooler, I loved the interface. The rest is, as they say, history!!:D |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 30, 2008, 5:54am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Well Splinters as one who had to ask to come back because I discussed other programs, I would advise against it.
I've been an observationist all my life and even did so with my occupation.
My observation is that trueSpace is heading even faster to a techno-geek application and will appeal less and less to those who just want to do art.
Having just acquired some Adobe programs, I am finding out what so many already knew, that some things can be done in post work (including 3D space) that doesn't necessarily need to be done in or with one program.
My Uncle who was a MGM Film editor back in the day spoke to artistry versus technology. He stated that his job was taking raw footage and under direction, edit it into something presentable, most of the time under a single decision (producer or director.) He said a lot of times the footage came out what the Editors impolitely named it, a final product of edited raw footage, that looked like it was edited raw footage.
The point being, it's not the tools, it's usually the artist and their inspiration. Technically superior videos and films have fallen flat on their face in the past and will do so in the future, because they are too mechanical, too rigid - without the flexibility of reflecting real life or at least remaining consistent with the viewers theme of artistic consistency.
In this case, the software we used are the Directors or Producers of our artistic output. Some of us, like me, don't have innate talent, so no matter what we do, it will have that raw footage that still looks like edited raw footage.
I would say Splinters that the feelings and impressions you are having with another program that is easier (for artists wanting artistic output), has for the first time loosened up the bonds of 'direction' or at least how you approach your art and you are liking it. That works well for those who have talent like yourself, Splinters.
Not having to get bogged down into technical features (and bugs) does allow for freedom of expression. Some can set this aside and use the 'cruel scissors of technology' and produce art anyway without a second thought.
Some programs are more fun than others, the one you bring up in my opinion, is more fun because it allows easier artistic flow without the 'director.'
With that said I, like yourself, have found trueSpace a nice home in which to dwell. It's comfortable and it does certain things that can be fun or at least easier. The strongest part of that software home, in my opinion, is a strong community and user base. That is rapidly eroding, because we have been told of a change of direction and our future is uncertain.
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Right now I'm watching a really cheesy cartoon. It is some how keeping my attention and though I can criticize it, it keeps me from changing channels. I asked myself why?
I answered myself:
It was the dialogue and music background that keeps my attention.
Then I thought how that applies to here in Caligari space. From my perspective, the dialogue is mostly absent and there is no music playing, yet somehow it is keeping my attention.
No, I'm not saying trueSpace is cheesy, it's just that I feel I am in some great hall, listening to the echo of my own thoughts and there is no music.
My thoughts, random and chaotic , guide my mood and direction.
There is no center.
This simply means that man first is, and only subsequently is this or that. In a word, man must create his own essence: it is in throwing himself into the world, suffering there, struggling there, that he gradually defines himself. And the definition always remains open ended: we cannot say what this man is before he dies, or what mankind is before it has disappeared.
- From "A propos de l'existentialisme: Mise au point," Action Magazine, December 29, 1944 |
Post by splinters // Mar 30, 2008, 6:53am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Some excellent points there James and I think you have hit the nail on the head. My initial post was born of frustration really. Not having a great day and a rant about tS was not what I intended. I simply found a feature in another program that was easy to use and gave me excellent results (reminiscent of my first play with Maya fur). I am slightly frustrated that I cannot do that in my 'favourite' program.
Again, your point about ease of use was spot on. I see a picture (very clearly) in my mind and want my tools to realise that image. I really lose interest when I have to wade through complicated menus/tabs/code etc.
That is why I stuck with tS and avoided Maya etc....too complicated for an arist/designer like me.
So, my question was answered earlier. I guess we can mention any other programs if we are not promotoing them over tS. That the fur/hair is not so usable to me at the moment is still a niggle and the fact that there is no choice of plug in to improve that. I just keep waiting for Dribble 1.04 and hope that might cover it...:o
And I am not looking to get 'thrown out' nor encourage anyone else to. |
Post by Délé // Mar 30, 2008, 7:41am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I see a picture (very clearly) in my mind and want my tools to realise that image.Hmm...Maybe it's time to come back to the beta team to tell the devs about your tool ideas? ;) |
Post by splinters // Mar 30, 2008, 8:07am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Mmmmm, can of worms Dele?
Good to hear from ya though...:D
For anyone visiting this thread and wondering why a Gold Ambassador is making this point;
Bad day, frustrated and simply wish I could open tS and do EVERYTHING I need without needing another program.
That's all. |
Post by RAYMAN // Mar 30, 2008, 9:02am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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If you look at all the blockbuster movies they are all
done with many pieces of software.
Whats so bad about doing things in different programs....apart from
having to learn them. You got them now ... USE them !
You payed money.
By the way dribble is a different product too !:rolleyes:
Peter |
Post by kena // Mar 30, 2008, 9:04am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I know how you feel. I've been using TS almost exclusively. I have a few other programs, but TS is it. Unless it gets to the point that It's too much of a CAD and not enough of a canvas. Then I will use it to make objects to import to programs where the modeling is too difficult and that will be it. Take a look at my submitted pictures. I'm one of those people that feel very reluctant to open up a second program to post-process my images. Still feels like cheating to me, although I know it isn't. I want to create artwork that is fully TS and let it stand on it's own when I submit a picture. I will use another program to make textures which I import into TS to use. or to make backgrounds, but not anything for post-work.
Sometimes it's frustrating, but I like a challenge. :D |
Post by transient // Mar 30, 2008, 1:40pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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By the way dribble is a different product too !
Huh? It's a trueSpace-only plug-in. |
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