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Question for realtime renders. BUMPS or NORMALS?
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Question for realtime renders. BUMPS or NORMALS? // Roundtable
Post by jhowell // May 8, 2008, 8:27am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Hello, I have a question. Since I only do real time renders I was wondering what some thoughts are comparing real time BUMP MAPS or REAL TIME NORMAL maps. Both seem to use the same amount of polys. Any comments would be appreciated. See my image below. Thanks ....:) |
Post by TomG // May 8, 2008, 9:58am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Normal maps give a more detailed and realistic result, but are harder to make.
A bump map simply tells the render engine to raise or lower a point on the surface. It does not tell the point to "face in a different direction" however, so the end result is limited in the detail and realism it can give. They are easily made though, a quick greyscale from any image gives a pretty usable bump map. Not so with normal maps.
A normal map tells the render engine "this point on the surface faces in this direction", which gives more flexibility in how the surface is altered, giving more detail and realism to how it catches the light. The odd colors come as the r,g and b channels are used to specify the direction of the normal (ie the x,y and z components of its vector). You can't make one so instantly out of any old image :)
Normal maps require more sophisticated graphics cards to display them, anything in the last 3 or 4 years should be fine, but prior to that normal mapping was not really the norm (no pun intended ;) ) in real time so it didnt have huge support in the hardware. These days normal mapping is universal in 3D game engines and the like, being used to add wrinkles and pockets to clothing without adding poly count, etc.
(Normal mapping excels at doing that, adding extra detail without the need to have the geometry to support that detail, yet giving almost as good a look as if the geometry was there - its used when generating a low poly version of a high poly mesh for instance, and you can do that in tS).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jhowell // May 8, 2008, 5:30pm
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Thank you so much Tom. Outstanding explaination. Really does help. I was using crazybumps (crazybump.com) for my normals. But now that the beta is over the personal price is 99.00. Might try that photoshop normal maker plugin. I notice in the forum there are a couple other normal map making programs people are using. Love that I can do all of this in truespace REAL TIME DISPLAY mode. Thanks again. JH ... |
Post by vnomad // May 8, 2008, 7:08pm
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vnomad
Total Posts: 14
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Yes, Tom gave a top notch explanation here. Very lucid!
I have experimented some with trueSpace and normalmap creation along the lines of texture baking, and find myself unable to produce a "coherent" normalmap - the best I could get out was a scattered matrix of the normals, not the sort of thing you get from crazybump, or from the Inagoni Baker plug-in to Carrara.
But maybe I'm missing something obvious. Possibly I have to UV-unwrap my model first in order to get similar normalmaps from trueSpace? In any case, it would have been really nice to have something along the lines of "Roadkill" or "UVLayout" in trueSpace to produce UVmaps that are easy to paint.
Alright, I'm expecting too much. No matter what 3D app you're using these days you have to employ "helpers" somewhere in the pipeline.
Looking forward to 7.6 ;) |
Post by jamesmc // May 8, 2008, 7:13pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I hear ya Vnomad about UV maps.
After all these years, one would figure that some genius program would come up with an alternative.
UV mapping and bringing them into a 2D program and trying to make them fit, fixing seams and blah blah is a night mare for any body working 3D.
I got an idea how I'd solve it and it would similar to the Zbrush solution.
In my opinion, if the UV map problem was solved, the attraction to 3D would be huge.
The bonus would go to the person or team that solves it and of course, not charge thousands of dollars for it. |
Post by Délé // May 9, 2008, 1:49am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I highly recommend Texture Maker if you don't have it. It is a very good texture making program (including normal maps). It is quite inexpensive and very much worth the price. I use it constantly.
http://www.texturemaker.com |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 5:26am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I realy feel sad about this .... that Truespace now has such an awsome realtime engine and doesnt make more use of it for the obvious namely
making texturing more easily then in any other program;)
We need crazy bump(pro) for 300 $ and this and that
I have a few programs and I go in this and out that and into this again
and render out in that...... my workflow and as I see it some other
peoples (including gold ambassadors) looks more like a cheese with holes !
Peter |
Post by TylerZambori // May 9, 2008, 5:31am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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I realy feel sad about this .... that Truespace now has such an awsome realtime engine and doesnt make more use of it for the obvious namely
making texturing more easily then in any other program;)
We need crazy bump(pro) for 300 $ and this and that
I have a few programs and I go in this and out that and into this again
and render out in that...... my workflow and as I see it some other
peoples (including gold ambassadors) looks more like a cheese with holes !
Peter
what about using something like blender along with TS? I know better
than to expect TS to do absolutely everything I want, but it still has
features the others don't. It seems everybody has to get used to using
more than one program. I know one freelancer who joked about having
to use 50 different programs! (he uses xsi). |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 7:50am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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what about using something like blender along with TS?
Well why not Truespace ?
I pay for something and want to use it !
I dont pay for potential I pay for results that HELP me to
get things done easily !
Its got a fantastic real time engine and doesnt make full use
of its capabilities with its TOOLS !!!!
In the future I will not pay big money for each incremental
update if the program does NOT help me finish my projects faster....
Realtime texturing and normal map creation would be a GREAT !!!!
help !;););)
ranting along this time !:o
Peter |
Post by TylerZambori // May 9, 2008, 8:33am
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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Sorreeeee.....I was just trying to help. |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 8:39am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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I just started a NEW thread with this post.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5426
if I could figure that out it would be one less other program any of us would have to use. Like crazybumps.com.
:banana:
p.s... additional free truespace 7.5 tutorials
FREEEEE.. SUPER IK RIGGED SKELETON FOR TRUESPACE 7.5. ACCEPTS BVH ANIM CLIPS.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=68189#post68189
FINALLY, YOUTUBE IS NOW OFFERING HIGHER QUALITY!
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=67332#post67332
STUNNING EFFECTS USING CHROMAKEYING GREEN/BLUE SCREEN.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=66672#post66672
REDUCING POLYS AND NORMAL MAPPING ALL IN ONE CLICK.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=66528#post66528
USING ADDITIVE BLEND MODE WITH ANIM CLIPS
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=66093#post66093
7 MINUTE RIGGING THE DINO OBJECT
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5347
DEXTER CHARACTER WITH SOCCER BALL KICK BVH
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=65501#post65501
REAL TIME BUMPMAPS
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5272
CAMERA TRACKING MATCHMOVING SYNTHEYES TUTORIAL
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5259
5 FREE "RIGGED" CHARACTERS FOR TRUESPACE 7.0/7.5
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5241
TANK GIRL RESKELETONED SO YOU CAN DROP ANIM CLIPS ON TO HER TOO.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=66617#post66617
APPLYING PHYSICS CONSTRAINTS TO CHARACTERS
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5293
FREE BVH ANIMATION CLIP VIEWER FOR YOUR TRUESPACE BVH CLIPS
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5367
OUTSTANDING WEBSITE FOR TRUESPACE 7 SCRIPTS.
http://www.clintons3d.com/truespace
MUCH HIGHER QUALITY THAN YOUTUBE! SHOW YOUR TRUESPACE CLIPS ON BLIPTV.
http://blip.tv/file/865095
http://blip.tv/file/835014
http://blip.tv/file/882037
http://blip.tv/file/915714
HOW I "REAL TIME" RENDER THOUSANDS OF FRAMES SUCCESSFULLY.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5370
GIF MOVIE GEAR AT http://www.gamani.com IS ONLY ANIM GIF MAKER MAKER THAT I HAVE FOUND THAT ANIMATES HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS
OF FRAMES IN 256 COLOR GIF IMAGE FORMAT AS A GIF IMAGE. SUPER FAST EASY VIEWING FOR ANY WEBSITE PAGE. LOOK AT THIS 4000 FRAME TRUESPACE REAL TIME RENDERED FILE IMAGE AS A ANIMATED GIF IMAGE! ..
http://4webs.biz/truespacestuff/april29dancingskeleton4000framesmall15speed.gif
ABOVE ANIMATION IS A TRUESPACE 4000 FRAMED REAL TIME RENDERED GIF IMAGE! WAY SPEEDED UP OF COURSE. ANY WEBPAGE CAN VIEW A GIF FILE. EVEN PEOPLE WITH SLOW MODEMS. AND LIKE ANY IMAGE TYPE FILE IT CAN BE RIGHT CLICK AND DOWNLOADED. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 8:47am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Sorreeeee.....I was just trying to help.
Yeah I know and always appreciate it but that b thing is just to strange !!!!
Never got my head around it realy....:D
If it were less strange I would be all around it !
Peter |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 9:13am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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I tried a bunch of times to learn Blender. Since it is free and open source. I know there are some saying they like its interface but I as many find it extremely slow to learn. Very quirky. So I can not imagine trying to learn Blender just so I could use some of its texturing tools to do exporting for Truespace. Wow, that would be a lot of work. If we had many more tutorials for Truespace that would sure be awesome. Then we could learn workarounds and tips and tricks to easily get things done without having to rely on other programs. LOVE to SEE more intermediate type tutorials. |
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