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please help: NORMALS TO WORKSPACE??
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please help: NORMALS TO WORKSPACE?? // Roundtable
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 8:22am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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I know this has been mentioned several times on the forums. Iam going crazy still trying to get this to work. This would be the most awesome thing getting normals mapping from the model side over to the workspace side. Iam like many of you. Dont want to have to switch to other programs to get things done ... like crazybump.com ... Please see my image below. Thanks |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 9:13am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Yeah and scratching your back while standing on one foot !:p
going over the bridge and converting files.......
If youve ever seen how easy conversion can be (crazy bump)
your not going to be very fond over anything that is very complex....
why not load a picture or bumpmap and hit convert and see it
update in realtime on the object !
I could even imagine painting normals in realtime and being able to
save them for games.
What do we have an awsome realtime engine IN WORKSPACVE ONLY
for ....;)
Peter |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 9:18am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Hi Rayman, I love rants and raves but it sure does not help us figure things out as was the original request of this post :( |
Post by Délé // May 9, 2008, 9:24am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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There have been a few scriptors around here that have created bitmap scripts. I'm sure that it's entirely possible to script a normal map generator that allows you to procedurally create normal maps similar to the bump maps on the model side.
Glen or Johny might be able to do it. I'll look into it if I get some time. This is certainly something that we the community could create though. |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 9:29am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Thanks Dele, wonder though. As mentioned at the beginning of this post doesnt Truespace convert automatically bump maps to normal maps when switching back to the workspace side? That is what I have always been told and that is what I think might be possible without additional scripts. Just trying to figure it out. :)
There have been a few scriptors around here that have created bitmap scripts. I'm sure that it's entirely possible to script a normal map generator that allows you to procedurally create normal maps similar to the bump maps on the model side.
Glen or Johny might be able to do it. I'll look into it if I get some time. This is certainly something that we the community could create though. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 9:43am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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jhowell looks like its a lightworks shader only ... for me it doesnt translate !
What I heard is that workspace only tries to convert bitmap wise
but what you would wnt is a direct translation of procedurals
which I doubt is possible 1: 1.
I heard about this kind of problem when Simbionts were discussed
some time ago !
Peter |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 9:53am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Thanks Rayman, as shown in my picture at the beginning of this post (second image up from the bottom) that the bump map from the model side does come in to the workspace side link editor as a NORMAL MAP. But as you mention that is a lightworks shader .. So sad, it is there ... but I just can NOT use it on the workspace side .... yet ... (as I will eventually figure this out) :)
jhowell looks like its a lightworks shader only ... for me it doesnt translate !
What I heard is that workspace only tries to convert bitmap wise
but what you would wnt is a direct translation of procedurals
which I doubt is possible 1: 1.
I heard about this kind of problem when Simbionts were discussed
some time ago !
Peter |
Post by RAYMAN // May 9, 2008, 10:09am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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more or less same problem with Lightwork shaders and VRAY...
Peter |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 10:29am
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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So maybe Dele is correct. Need someone to write a SCRIPT that will take that LW lightworks displacement NORMAL MAP shader sitting in the link editor that came from a bump map on the model side and convert it to a normal map that works on the workspace side. I do love normal maps in realtime mode and I do not want to go to other programs like crazybump.com to make my normal maps. Especially when the model side displacement editor is so awesome. Wish I could do scripting (I would gladly pay for this scripting, by the way, to benefit the Truespace users).
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Post by TomG // May 9, 2008, 10:51am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The script writers would probably be better writing a new shader that made similar patterns as the ones in Model side.
Since the Model side is a bump map, not sure it could be converted to a normal map (it won't have enough information). Even then, the scripts run workspace side in the new tech, so would have no access to the lightworks specific bump map shaders on the model side.
So I dont think conversion is the way to go. But new shaders written to generate normal maps based on the same patterns and math of the Model side would be useful. But they would of course only work in the workspace side :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Délé // May 9, 2008, 11:03am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I think Tom is right. That is what I was getting at too. Create new procedural scripts that are similar to the model side.
Since the Model side is a bump map, not sure it could be converted to a normal map (it won't have enough information)I'm not sure about that. Texture Maker can take any maps (including bump maps) and convert them to a normal map. So if TM can do it, there must mathematically be a way. We just have to figure out how they go about it. ;) |
Post by W!ZARD // May 9, 2008, 11:50am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I realise this is going to a 3rd party app rather than doing it all within tS but there is a (free) plug-in for thre GIMP (also free) that does a good job of creating usable normal maps from ordinary image files. It's easy to use and has a wide range of settings allowing a lot of control.
While these are probably not the absolute answer when it comes to Normal maps they do make a reasonably satisfactory alternative. |
Post by jhowell // May 9, 2008, 12:23pm
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Yes, I have tried GIMP and other normal map creators. Its just that using model sides displacement editor is just the best (see attached image) with those cool options, casting, wrapped dimple, rough, etc etc. Those options in to normal maps for the workspace side would be a dream come true. I have used that displacement editor for many years. :banana:
I realise this is going to a 3rd party app rather than doing it all within tS but there is a (free) plug-in for thre GIMP (also free) that does a good job of creating usable normal maps from ordinary image files. It's easy to use and has a wide range of settings allowing a lot of control.
While these are probably not the absolute answer when it comes to Normal maps they do make a reasonably satisfactory alternative. |
Post by vnomad // May 9, 2008, 7:17pm
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vnomad
Total Posts: 14
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Carrara and Hexagon (booooooooo!) don't do normalmapping on their own either. Third party scripting was mentioned here as an (interim) solution, and I think much can be learnt from Inagoni's Baker which is exactly a case in point. Some of the conceptual issues are cleared up as well here (http://www.inagoni.com/content.php?content.3)
Unable to get normalmaps suitable for realtime Web3D models/avatars out of trueSpace, this is what I'm using, reluctantly, these days.
With trueSpace the best workaround I've found so far is exporting the low poly mesh as .obj, with (pelted/relaxed) UVmapping to Zbrush, subdividing, detailing, and exporting the normalmap, which is then indexed to the UVmap from there. Painful and slow :(
Since tS already has real handy exportable animation (soon including FACIAL!), I think the inclusion of tangent space normals would really boost its attractiveness to game developers.
Go, team, go :jumpy: |
Post by transient // May 9, 2008, 8:55pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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With trueSpace the best workaround I've found so far is exporting the low poly mesh as .obj, with (pelted/relaxed) UVmapping to Zbrush, subdividing, detailing, and exporting the normalmap, which is then indexed to the UVmap from there. Painful and slow
Why not use xnormal? It's easier to use and at least as powerful (if not more) than any in-house solution I've tried. There's no need to torture yourself with normal map generation anymore.
I think the idea of using model side procedurals as normal maps is pretty cool. Maybe it would be possible to bake the bump maps to a uv texture using 3delight. Then you could use gimp turn this into a normal map (or maybe it would be possible to do this with renderman as well).
Perhaps Simon would know the answer to this. |
Post by W!ZARD // May 11, 2008, 3:35pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Why not use xnormal? It's easier to use and at least as powerful (if not more) than any in-house solution I've tried. There's no need to torture yourself with normal map generation anymore.
I think the idea of using model side procedurals as normal maps is pretty cool. Maybe it would be possible to bake the bump maps to a uv texture using 3delight. Then you could use gimp turn this into a normal map (or maybe it would be possible to do this with renderman as well).
Perhaps Simon would know the answer to this.
Yeah, this works after a fashion - you can get good usable results from it. The only drawback is that the modelside procedural bumps have all the advantages of being procedural - like being seamless and easily edited. Once the bump is cooked into an image it looses that functionality. |
Post by transient // May 11, 2008, 5:07pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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The only drawback is that the modelside procedural bumps have all the advantages of being procedural - like being seamless and easily edited. Once the bump is cooked into an image it looses that functionality.
There's nothing stopping you from changing it and baking it again. I'm not really sure why this is an issue, unless you want to animate them.
The possible exception to this would be allegorithmic's (http://www.allegorithmic.com/?PAGE=PRODUCTS.profxonline)approach, which is very nice. I can't see tS being capable of this in the near future, though. |
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