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How do I unwrap models for texture creation?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
How do I unwrap models for texture creation? // Roundtable
Post by TomG // May 12, 2008, 1:44am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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UV mapping is hard.
There is no two ways about it, that's always the case, and there is no software that gives you a great UV solution in 5 minutes with just a click or two. Not only that, it's also probably the trickiest area of 3D to get your head around.
Do try to draw a map of the world on a piece of paper, then wrap that around a sphere, without wrinkles, to end up with a good representation of the world, and you can see that this is a complex task even in the real world.
Naturally we think that the UV mapping should be made as simple as is possible, so we'll be continuing to work on the UVE in workspace, just as we have worked on it in the past :) Work has been and is being done already of course - as was mentioned in another thread, just because it hasn't shown up in the Captain's Blog does not mean that nothing has happened or changed in a particular area. The Blog just covers the more dramatic and exciting areas, and work on basic tools is just never that exciting no matter how you cut it up, but that doesnt mean the work on the basic tools is not happening. It is :)
But getting UV mapping working well will always require some effort, some thought, and some time. All we can do is try to minimise how much, but it will always involve some!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TigreStripe // May 12, 2008, 1:56am
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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The uvmapper could be better, but it's far from useless.
I'm sure your right. Each time I go back to it and try to do something that I picked up in another piece of software then it seems to be a bit better. The documentation is just not there.
I realise it's hard to write good technical manuals and TrueSpace is not alone in this. 3D apps or not. |
Post by TigreStripe // May 12, 2008, 2:09am
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TigreStripe
Total Posts: 75
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UV mapping is hard.
Amen.
There is no two ways about it, that's always the case, and there is no software that gives you a great UV solution in 5 minutes with just a click or two. Not only that, it's also probably the trickiest area of 3D to get your head around.
Amen again. But I have noticed that a lot of tutorials will show you how to do something but not why your doing it.
Do try to draw a map of the world on a piece of paper, then wrap that around a sphere, without wrinkles, to end up with a good representation of the world, and you can see that this is a complex task even in the real world.
It would still be easier than using TrueSpace's UV Mapping. :D If your new to it.
Naturally we think that the UV mapping should be made as simple as is possible, so we'll be continuing to work on the UVE in workspace, just as we have worked on it in the past :) Work has been and is being done already of course - as was mentioned in another thread, just because it hasn't shown up in the Captain's Blog does not mean that nothing has happened or changed in a particular area. The Blog just covers the more dramatic and exciting areas, and work on basic tools is just never that exciting no matter how you cut it up, but that doesnt mean the work on the basic tools is not happening. It is :)
But getting UV mapping working well will always require some effort, some thought, and some time. All we can do is try to minimise how much, but it will always involve some!
HTH!
Tom
That's always good to know! |
Post by kena // May 12, 2008, 5:02am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Spacekdet has a growing list of tutorials for TS, including a UVMapping one on his site. The one for UV is for TS 6.6, but that can be translated to the model side of TS7.5x
http://www.spacekdet.com/tutorials/ |
Post by clintonman // May 12, 2008, 12:26pm
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clintonman
Total Posts: 304
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Heres one from the GameSpace site:-
http://www.caligari.com/gamespace/tutorial/uv_map1.asp
Thanks for the "secret" link. I thought the entire gamespace site was gone. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 3, 2008, 2:05am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Studying examples of how other Artist unwrap their models is a great help. Notice where they place the seams so they are not as visible...
http://daemon3d.com/low_poly.html
While your at it also notice the quality of the textures they use. As you improve each step your Models become more believable and realistic.
http://daemon3d.com/finished_work/SSguard/SS_guard_Face.jpg |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 3, 2008, 3:12am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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It's still hard for me to believe after all these years some programmer hasn't figured out to make a bandsaw cutter for 3D objects.
That is, where one wants to separate a 3D object, they just cut it. After cutting and exporting, the object will automatically unfold.
Maybe it's just me, but it appears 3D model programmers have dropped the ball on this subject.
I mean, it should be just that easy, use a marker, mark on an object to cut - done. One could have straight lines, curved lines (free form) and even bezier cuts with control handles.
Sorry, but I have no tolerance for lack of imagination and innovation.
(/rant) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 3, 2008, 9:25am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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There are several programs out there that do what you are asking James. The trick is that there is no way to maintain both texture continuity and a perfect projection, it's just not mathematically possible. So the art in UV mapping is to balance texture distortion with having a continuous projection.
Some programs you should check out are:
Wings3D
Roadkill
UVLayout
Here's a video of UVLayout in action:
http://www.headus.com/au/doc/uvlayout-demos/videos/UVLayout-Basic-Flattening.mov |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 3, 2008, 9:30am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Yes Uv layout is very good but beware its a program that relies totaly on
key shortcuts!
Something that it has in common with most of how Blender works !
Blender is good for UV mapping too !
http://www.gryllus.net/Blender/3D.html
Peter |
Post by TomG // Jul 3, 2008, 9:48am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Everyone is welcome to take some wrapping paper and wrap a sphere with it, perhaps a soccer ball or globe of the earth without a stand, and do so without creases, seams, and ensuring the pattern all still matches up once the wrapping is done ;)
This will show how hard it is to UV wrap, due not to lack of research and work on the issue, but due to the fact that it is a mathematically complex operation. Doing the same thing physically (wrapping a 2D map onto a 3D object) illustrates this nicely, grounding the concept of UV mapping into something physical.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by spacekdet // Jul 3, 2008, 9:52am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Hop to it, James! |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 3, 2008, 9:59am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Everyone is welcome to take some wrapping paper and wrap a sphere with it, perhaps a soccer ball or globe of the earth without a stand, and do so without creases, seams, and ensuring the pattern all still matches up once the wrapping is done ;)
This will show how hard it is to UV wrap, due not to lack of research and work on the issue, but due to the fact that it is a mathematically complex operation. Doing the same thing physically (wrapping a 2D map onto a 3D object) illustrates this nicely, grounding the concept of UV mapping into something physical.
HTH!
Tom
Yes Tom your right ! But the workflow in an app can be made as easy as possible and the realtime display of truespace would be predestinated to
make it as fast and easy as possible !
The task itself is not easy for a program !:)
Peter |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 3, 2008, 1:06pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Of course, this may be easier said (illustrated than done) but it appears to me that the concept of UV mapping the way it is currently done is putting the cart before the horse and expecting the cart to be pushed along the way by the horse.
Why not have built-in fold seams and cuts into primitives, so that when the object is subdivided or more geometry is added, the majority of the uvmap work is done.
My concept is is a 1 N concept where N defines the boundary of a geometry vertex bridging. Once rules are set for primitives, then pre-defined cuts and fold seams are pre-defined. (see illustration 1)
In illustration 2, the object originally starts as a cube, then subdivided. Notice that each instance of subdivision maintains its 1N bridged vertices of whether it is a cut or a fold UV.
In illustration 3, I show a different angle of illustration 2, but indicate their could be an option to redefined a fold line (blue) into that of a cut line (red)I didn't make an illustration for it, but it appears to me that redefinition of existing vertices that did not get defined (i.e. the vertical vertices forming the upright lines) could be redefined as cut or fold lines as well. Otherwise, they just make of the skin of the object's geometry and are inactive for UV action purposes.
Then the algorithm for unfold the object would be rules set for the red cut lines that maintain the structure of the object's skin and the fold lines that act as pivots.
Of course, I would make it where one could have only the original fold lines pivot or one could choose which line pivot upon the unfolding algorithm being invoked.
Whatcha think blue gooses? |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 3, 2008, 2:06pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I extracted the relative faces from the models, sans the cube, to show what the extracted mesh would look like unfolded.
The one of the left is course unsubdivided and the one on the right is subdivided.
It shows the layout of the seam and cut method.
Sorry, didn't do the colored lines. :) |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 4, 2008, 2:51am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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The bishop looking chess piece would actually be better treated more like a cylinder, with capped ends....
1)use a cylindrical projection on the entire object.
2) select only the top face and use a planar projection.
3) arrange as necessary in UV window. |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 4, 2008, 3:01am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Heh nowherebrain, perhaps.
But, the purpose of my demonstration was to demonstrate that UV's should already be part of a an objects matrix and pre-defined, but adjustable later. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 4, 2008, 3:07am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Sorry, but when unwrapping even, you need to maximize pixel>UV space. The way it was unwrapped would leave nearly 70% un-used pixels....once again sorry, just trying to share some knowledge and a faster method, the right tool for the right job. |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 4, 2008, 3:27am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Sorry, but when unwrapping even, you need to maximize pixel>UV space. The way it was unwrapped would leave nearly 70% un-used pixels....once again sorry, just trying to share some knowledge and a faster method, the right tool for the right job.
Explain the 70 percent of un-used pixels?
Once unwrapped, all surfaces are available. Each and every polygon was accounted for when I split it up, trust me. :D |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 4, 2008, 3:55am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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If you look at your image, as it is laid out is like a cross. Between each arm of the cross there is empty space....e.g. unused pixels(the black areas). The second image is cylindrical mapped with capped ends, uses more of the pixels. |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 4, 2008, 4:54am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I see what your saying, but you do realize I used actual geometry for demonstration purposes. (see attached image)
The folding portions would fold out on each edge for the for sides, they don't become disconnected, they flatten. The edge doesn't disappear.
This is no different from making a cut for a dress or suit pattern and laying it out flat. |
Post by kena // Jul 4, 2008, 9:41am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Well, It's a good analogy, but when making a suite, the extra space is usually used for other pieces of the suit. Much like you see here:
http://vintagesewing.info/1940s/42-mpd/illust/05-124.jpg
This is to save money. The "money" we talk about in UV mapping is pixel space. The more of an image that is actually used, the better.
Here is a small example of a texture used for a complicated mesh
13085
So while YOUR example would work...
nowherebrain's image would work better.... if he actually curved the sides to match the non-standard cylinder. |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 4, 2008, 9:54am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Hmm, well, not too many people are understanding my idea.
I'll put it in another way.
The current method of UV mapping is to reconstruct usable patterns for applying texture AFTER the model is completed.
The concept I have proposed is to make UV seams and folds before the modle is even started that is built into primitives.
Back to the dress maker or suit maker analogy - how many of these people apply a cutout pattern after they make a dress or a suit?
They of course, apply the pattern before the dress or suit is made or in the case of my concept before the object is modeled.
Even if the geometry grows more complex, the basis of built-in uv cut and fold lines are adaptable and grow as the geometry grows. If the mesh needs to be cut somewhere else, the cut can be changed into fold line or the fold line (edge) can be changed into a cut line.
I mean, I really don't need to do any of this as I have a very fine 3D painter in Zbrush that handles actual surface painting quite well. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 4, 2008, 10:31am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Actually I agree with James idea here. That the modeling tools should have an option to try to maintain the UV mappings during modeling. That way for quick work no special unwrapping is needed. There comes a choice though of whether to "stick" the texture or have it move with the geometry changes. The other problem area is extrusion type operations. Should the UVs for the new geometry be automatically inset and there by having the texture stretch in areas that are extruded? Or should it overlap existing UVs? There are times when either approach might be more desired.
But for finished work, there's no substitute for UV mapping done by hand.
@James, have you looked at the Wings3Ds UV mapper? It does the seam and unfold thing. Definitely a tool that would be cool to have in TS. ;) |
Post by Steinie // Jul 4, 2008, 10:41am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't TS 4.3 have this already? A UV Map was automatically generated when you created the shape. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 4, 2008, 11:36am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Not upsetting the UV's is not new in a lot of packages, just tS, and it is not even new yet, due to it's non existence. |
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