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Roman's issues
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Roman's issues // Roundtable
Post by jamesmc // Jun 12, 2008, 3:34am
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jamesmc
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I haven't seen anything lately that would rile up JamesMc again except lack of support to him from Caligari. (old tutorials etc.) However he keeps threatening to leave but doesn't. Vegas has it 10 to 1 he comes back...
Damn you Steinie! :D |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 12, 2008, 3:49am
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3dfrog
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hehehe, James your a moody guy but the forum wouldn't be the same without you and your sense of humor ;) Glad to see ya back. |
Post by jamesmc // Jun 12, 2008, 3:52am
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jamesmc
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hehehe, James your a moody guy but the forum wouldn't be the same without you and your sense of humor ;) Glad to see ya back.
Well, mother nature blessed me (cough) with bi-polar and sometimes I don't know who I am.
If I didn't have a hobby like graphics, I suppose I would have made a fine ax murderer. :cool: |
Post by Steinie // Jun 12, 2008, 3:55am
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Steinie
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JamesMc, my REAL address is Nome Alaska...just in case you want to visit for a Woodsman demonstration...:p |
Post by jamesmc // Jun 12, 2008, 4:14am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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JamesMc, my REAL address is Nome Alaska...just in case you want to visit for a Woodsman demonstration...:p
Hmmm, well with my luck I would be part of a grizzly kill and only remembered by my bleached bones sitting on a ledge near a mountain.
Alaska is way too cold for me. My brother-in-law got a collapsed lung stepping outside from a warm cabin. I guess the temperature difference and instant freezing can do that kind of thing, dunno. He was stationed at some remote listening post back in the Cold War days, Point Barrow or something like that. |
Post by spyfrog // Jun 12, 2008, 9:05am
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spyfrog
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hey spyfrog.
What are your system specs: operating system, CPU, and video card model / interface type (AGP / PCI Express / Other)?
Intel Core Duo @2.13 Ghz, 6Gb Ram, WinXP 64
Pci Express Nvidia GeForce 8600 GT (256 mb videoram). |
Post by frootee // Jun 12, 2008, 9:14am
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thanks spyfrog. I just wanted to see if you had any system components which could hinder performance, but it looks like your configuration should handle the workspace just fine. My system is considerably lower-power than yours and the Workspace runs fine.
Do you have issues when you start with a fresh scene, or
when you have particular objects/scenes/textures loaded? Are you ryign to load a very large number of objects?
just trying to pinpoint the issue.
thanks,
froo |
Post by spyfrog // Jun 12, 2008, 9:25am
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spyfrog
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thanks spyfrog. I just wanted to see if you had any system components which could hinder performance, but it looks like your configuration should handle the workspace just fine. My system is considerably lower-power than yours and the Workspace runs fine.
Do you have issues when you start with a fresh scene, or
when you have particular objects/scenes/textures loaded? Are you ryign to load a very large number of objects?
just trying to pinpoint the issue.
thanks,
froo
Thank you for your effort froo.
The sluggishness is mostly actually in the interface.
Like if you change tab in the righ bar - where you can change between Library/Pandels/Settings - this takes time to redraw.
Chaning to library takes so long that you actually see the program draw each of the library but changing to settings isn't instant either - it is a delay before the tab change. It is little but annoying.
Another thing that is sluggish to view is 2D view in a work window. The link editor takes long time to render.
The whole UI part of the program feels sluggish because of this. However, scaling and turning in a 3D window is fast.
/Thanks
Spyfrog |
Post by frootee // Jun 12, 2008, 10:11am
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OK thanks spyfrog.
Hm... just realized (I can be a little slow with Realizations sometimes...) your video card is an Nvidia card. Which driver version are you currently using? I have an ATI card myself, and don't have these issues.
Froo |
Post by TomG // Jun 12, 2008, 10:24am
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TomG
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Don't think this one is an NVIDIA issue, doesn't sound like the particular problems that they showed (which should be clear in the current NVIDIA drivers).
The 8600 is a fine enough card to run it. Some window redraws are slow in tS7.51, and that's been improved in tS7.6, but of course we won't know for sure this resolved your issue until we get you running tS7.6 to compare.
If the 3D window is running fine, then it does sound rather like the window redraw issues in 7.51 itself as my best guess.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jun 12, 2008, 10:31am
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Igor K Handel
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The discussion about Maya PLE got me thinking.
As it happens I spent months and months learniing/ tinkering with PLE but really thats where it had to end, I can't afford the full version. PLUS as you say there ARE a load of positives for TS as well. Obviously if it's in pursuit of a career then thats a whole different ballgame.
I can see where you are coming from about the TS name thing, but reckon that changing the name would be a very short-lived solution. Users aren't that naive.
Bringing over large numbers of users from other packages I guess would need a combination of elements to gain momentum and reach a sort of critical mass of users working in the industry.
Perhaps large quantities of high quality output, a strong, and sustained posting of artwork, animations, characters etc, outside of this forum, IE in CG mags, online interviews etc. An outreaching and vibrant community of users, posting frequently outside of the TS world with loads of real world examples of work actually used in the industry. And of course software innovation, ease of use and a reliable framework and toolset which can be trusted to effectively enhance the ease of use by someone relying on it to earn their living.
To me thats a really interesting topic that I'd love to hear others views on.
I'll throw out a hypothetical challege for anyone that cares to have a go.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????
My Question.. What can be done to entice users of other packages to migrate to TS. What are the factors that would swing it. (Other than price)Incidently I was always taught that selling mainly on price was a strategy of very high risk. IE the reliance on a constant very high sales numbers for ever and a day. So just what are the critical factors that you believe would swing it?
I guess that could be refined into....
-------------------------------------------------------
Your task is to put in place the ingredients for a catalyst that can persuade 2000+ current CG users over a year to migrate from their present, principle creative 3D platform.
In addition,
By the end of a year maximum, at least 200 of these 2000 users must be so convinced of the quality, productivity and ease of use of TS that they are actively posting prof/very high level work within the wider CG community, the press, magazines, etc etc.
Don't forget that the solution can include user participation as well as Company.
What would your ingredients be to achieve this?
--------------------------------------------------------
Would love to hear your views
IK |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jun 12, 2008, 10:40am
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Igor K Handel
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For what it's worth:
I use a Nvidia 7600 card with latest drivers (175.16) and the workspace interface is smooth and as fast as something ..well pretty darn fast and smooth lol.. No update/refresh issues here at all.
yours
IK
Specs(Xp sp2, 2mg ram, amd64 athlonfx.) |
Post by TomG // Jun 12, 2008, 11:23am
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You comment on "if it's in pursuit of a career then it's a whole different ball game" reminded me of an interesting blog I read lately (having been directed to it from letskilldave.com)
The post is here:
http://scientificninja.com/advice/choosing-tools
It talks about choice of tools for an indie making a game, and the two reasons:
"
1. you’re considering a career in the industry and want to learn the “correct” tools, or
2. you want to use “the tools” that professionals use because you believe it will give what you produce with those tools an edge over what you might produce with some other tool.
"
And then goes on to say why those are bad reasons. Perhaps the answers to those being bad reasons tie in also to how you might convince people that tS is a valid and viable tool, so figured I'd post here.
Hope this proves interesting!
Tom |
Post by spyfrog // Jun 12, 2008, 11:32am
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Don't think this one is an NVIDIA issue, doesn't sound like the particular problems that they showed (which should be clear in the current NVIDIA drivers).
The 8600 is a fine enough card to run it. Some window redraws are slow in tS7.51, and that's been improved in tS7.6, but of course we won't know for sure this resolved your issue until we get you running tS7.6 to compare.
If the 3D window is running fine, then it does sound rather like the window redraw issues in 7.51 itself as my best guess.
HTH,
Tom
Yes, I think you are correct Tom.
The 3D window runs smooth and fine, no problems there.
Sounds really promising that TS7.6 has improvements in this area - I am sure this will help. Very good news. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 12, 2008, 11:33am
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I have stopped looking at what " the industry is doing simply
because the industry "DOES NOT" help me make my models and " does not"
help me render my projects either !
I have come to my workflow over years and use pretty easy and
not very expensive tools ! Some of them even free !
Truespace is one of these tools that I use but not the only one.
What we can do to get other people to use Truespace more
is to ask for the tools that WE want and not what the industry
expects to see !
Its all down to easy workflow and quality when it comes to the final renders.
Note that the industry works with hundreds of people for a project and YOU are the only one behind your computer !
I COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT THE INDUSTRY DOES ANY MORE !
Peter |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 12, 2008, 11:44am
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Or to translate that into poducts ...... I never understood the fear that some
of you had that truespace could be transformed into Microsofts answer
to google sketchup ..... because a single person with sketchup and even the free version can build up a city as fast as a professional group of people can
do with maya or max !
And from the blog you can see the new extrude (fast boolean) tool
that works very much like the sketchup one and I tell you I love that !;)
Peter |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jun 12, 2008, 12:52pm
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Igor K Handel
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Interesting article Tom.
It's not that I agree with the "if it's in pursuit of a career then it's a whole different ball game". That was an observation rather than an opinion on my part.
I reread the article 3 times though because it took a few liberties, in my view.
In the arguement against 1
1. you’re considering a career in the industry and want to learn the “correct” tools
The arguement given seems a little skewed to me, UNLESS you plan on working completely alone long term. Without any firm knowledge on it I suspect that many lone indies would be more than happy to "progress?" into an established software house.
I try to see it from an indie point of view. I wonder what % of indies are independant as they want to be in control, and how many have no other option as they may be unestablished and are using it as a stepping stone or have no other alternative if they want to work in this field. If using indie as a stepping stone to employment I can see little option other than to conform to the framework within which the likely employers work. For example if loads of software houses use TS, me coming along with exclusively modo experience may at least partially shoot mself in the foot if I want to work in their "established" work flow. All assumption, but seems plausible to me?
If I have a software house who mainly use TS and 2 equally artistic talented prospects are in competition for 1 job. Will I be more likely to take on the guy who has used TS for 4 years, or the guy that has only used houdini?
Quick bit of inspiration..
To get more high quality TS created work "out there", and so increase it's profile...What about having a scheme where any page view of art that includes a "made with TS" Logo attracts a pay per click payment by Caligari. A nominal sum which could only be "cashed in" once a certain threshold has been reached. The Pages could be pre-vetted to ensure the correct "image" is being associated with Caligari. Only those pages deemed within the quality required by Caligari would be licenced to participate. This would encourage proliferation of quality TS work across the net. Would reward the "advertisers" with most exposure the highest. And would ensure that Caligari has control of its public image. The payment needn't even be cash it could equally be free server space, or discounts on products etc.
As an example take Splinters upcoming online extravaganza. Maybe a "Made in TS" logo on the home page. The site gets vetted by Caligari, the Logo Licence authorised. Once set up, the home page clicks attract Caligari remuneration. Splinters gains, with minimal additional work and no outlay. The more views of Splinters great artwork, the more People associate great quality with TS. Will it immediately generate TS purchasers, no, will it snowball into spreading the Ts/quality word ... in my view yes. So perhaps the site doesn't do as well as I believe it will. What has Caligari lost.. probably absolutely Zero, if the payout threshold is correctly set. In fact if he has generated $19 worth of commission, and the payout threshold is $20 Caligari just had loads of free association with high quality CG fo nothing. WIN WIN.
Regards
IK |
Post by splinters // Jun 12, 2008, 1:12pm
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Spooky, only last night I was making a 'made with trueSpace' logo for my website and CD to match the one available from eZedia: |
Post by jamesmc // Jun 12, 2008, 1:23pm
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Interesting last line of Tom's referenced article.
You’re not in Rome, so who cares what the Romans are doing? |
Post by kena // Jun 12, 2008, 1:43pm
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heh.. a few years ago, I got 3DSMax because that was what was the "industry standard", and I wanted to model "like the pros". I spent the $3,000 for it and went through tutorials, how-to's etc...
Then I decided that it had such a difficult interface that It was not worth the money and I've very rarely used it since.
I Find that even with the change-over to Workspace, TS is a whole lot more intuitive than most programs I've tried out there and so I stick with it. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 12, 2008, 1:58pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Funny thing is that most carpenters dont put a sign
up "made with hammer and nails":D
Peter |
Post by TomG // Jun 12, 2008, 2:30pm
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TomG
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The article is all about gaming, and indeed if you are only making demos to attract the attention of the big names, then maybe you DO need to go for the "standard tools".
But at least the article makes folks stop and think. If you are planning on staying indie, or being indie for 3 or 4 years and releasing finished content rather than just demos, then its worth stopping and checking any assumptions you might be carrying with you about what tool you "ought" to use.
The main thrust of the article is to review your needs, and not to assume that just because Software X fits the needs of Giant Company A that it meets your needs too, or that the tools is in some way "magically better" just because that company uses it. As noted, if your need is to really really appeal to Giant Company A for a job in 12 months, then maybe picking the same software they are using is indeed part of your criteria.
But if you just want to make good 3D art, at a budget you can afford, with an interface that you can get to grips with, and with enough tools to get the job done without paying for features you'll never touch (money that could go on a better processor, more memory, or other things that you will indeed need), then stopping and thinking is the best bet.
Be sure to reason it out for yourself and your situation, is the gist of it, and don't take anyone else's word for it :)
Anyway, I thought it was interesting reading. Glad it sparked some interesting debate and conversation here!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by frootee // Jun 12, 2008, 4:54pm
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I gotta say this. It's not really in response to any earlier post mind you.
Even if I wanted to get into 'the industry', but didn't have the cash to 'Buy' Maya, or 3Dstudio max, and I got my hands on it 'through other means', well, then, what would I do about the, um, you know. The Degree that is usually expected these days? Gotta have that, the training and all. And oh yeah.. what else comes with that... ah yes of course. A Demo Reel. So I can, get work and stuff. Well, a bachelor's or whatever in a curriculum like that costs a s**tload these days doesn't it? Hm. Gotta spend money no matter how you try not to. ah well. :cool: |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 12, 2008, 7:59pm
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W!ZARD
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Yay Rayman! Good call about 'the industry'. I like the carpenter comment too.
I'm often bemused by references to Maya and Max and 'the industry' particularly in the context of trueSpace. Seems to me there is a general perception that 'The Industry' is all about game content and Pixar level movies and that unless the sofware you use is the same as what 'The Industry' uses you'll never succeed in 'The Industry'.
This has never made a lot of sense to me - for a start Roman has never said (to my knowledge anyway) that trueSpace is intended to be a market leader at that level of 'The Industry'. tS has always been pitched as an affordable and innovative 3d solution rather than as a major league game or movie content app (although of course we all know that tS CAN make great 3D content of any kind in the hands of a great 3D content maker).
In my mind I think of the big Industry names (EA, Pixar etc) as analogous to a big transport firm that uses huge 18 wheeler Macks to deliver products intercity. Caligari (and other smaller companies with a more of a 'street level' target market) is more like the transport firm with a fleet of panel vans delivering within a city rather than between cities.
So is a guy driving a panel van delivering hundreds of whatevers around town part of the Transport Industry, like the guy driving a Mack 18 wheeler interstate hauler carrying 1000's of whatevers? Yes he is - it's all 'the transport industry' - just different areas of it. Similarly, the 'Big Apps', Maya, Max Lightwave etc are the 18 wheelers of the 3D industry while tS is a customised panel van in the same industry.
Comparing a big truck with a little van is a bit pointless in many respects however both are vital components of the overall transport industry. A van is perfect for local deliveries to domestic customers and shops on the highstreet whereas a big semi wouldn't fit down many highstreets without totally clogging the traffic.
The proof of this argument rests with all those folk who successfully use tS to cater to the needs of smaller markets - product visualisation, arch vis, fine CG art and this is before we even start to consider the potential of 3d collaboration - which Maya, Max etc can't do. |
Post by splinters // Jun 12, 2008, 9:34pm
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splinters
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Funny thing is that most carpenters dont put a sign
up "made with hammer and nails":D
Peter
They might if they were sponsored by a certain manufacturer of hammers.
All that is being suggested (I think) is a way of recognising the software you have used in your work so that other people look it up, if Caligari did the same with artist's sites that use their software well then surely there is no harm and everyone wins.
I doubt Igor meant anything more than that...:) |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jun 13, 2008, 7:34am
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Igor K Handel
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Splinters you have hit the nail exactly on the head! (what was the logo on the hammer handle by the way lol)
Funny thing is that most carpenters dont put a sign
up "made with hammer and nails"
Most carpenters aren't interested in coverting fellow carpenters to use their brand of hammer, because most carpenters are neither salesmen, or interested in promoting a hammer company?
One of the strongest proven methods (although slow) of increasing sales/users is through personal recommendation, which in effect is what a TS logo on a user's own artwork surely is.
Regards
IK |
Post by Matski007 // Jun 13, 2008, 8:20am
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Matski007
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I gotta say this. It's not really in response to any earlier post mind you.
Even if I wanted to get into 'the industry', but didn't have the cash to 'Buy' Maya, or 3Dstudio max, and I got my hands on it 'through other means', well, then, what would I do about the, um, you know. The Degree that is usually expected these days? Gotta have that, the training and all. And oh yeah.. what else comes with that... ah yes of course. A Demo Reel. So I can, get work and stuff. Well, a bachelor's or whatever in a curriculum like that costs a s**tload these days doesn't it? Hm. Gotta spend money no matter how you try not to. ah well. :cool:
Although im doing a degree, it is by no means necessary, if you are good at what you do and have an impressive show reel, then you will probably get a good job in the industry. Degrees are useless anyway, Mine has taught me little to nothing about Maya, I had to learn it myself and im glad I did because there is a reason the industry uses it and thats because its incredibly good lol.
A doing a degree only really shows the employer a level of commitment, in that you were able to commit 3 (or more) years to the work, but it is not necessary.
These days it does matter what the industry uses. They dont pick maya for no reason, its because it is the hgihest quality 3D package out there, and it is also highly configurable meaning companies such as Pixar can write their own version of Maya.
It is therefore important to learn it if you intended on getting a career in 3D art/animation |
Post by moogaloonie // Jun 18, 2008, 11:48am
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Splinters you have hit the nail exactly on the head! (what was the logo on the hammer handle by the way lol)
Most carpenters aren't interested in coverting fellow carpenters to use their brand of hammer, because most carpenters are neither salesmen, or interested in promoting a hammer company?
One of the strongest proven methods (although slow) of increasing sales/users is through personal recommendation, which in effect is what a TS logo on a user's own artwork surely is.
Regards
IK
And farmers wear John Deere hats, and auto mechanics wear those Snap-On tools t-shirts. Sometimes we use tools we don't particularly care about, because we didn't make the choice (like when I use something by Adobe at work) or maybe have nothing in our experience to compare it to (like the kids who start out with a stolen copy of 3DSMax). Sometimes though we find something that seems so superior to everything else that we either have to shout it from the rooftops, or we guard it like a fishing spot. And if that thing, whether its a brand of car, a political or religious belief, or type of softdrink ever seems threatened it can turn a person into a bit of a fanatic (like I became when I got my first Amiga). I think it comes down to whether the individual person feels it is or isn't their business to promote a company's product simply because they enjoy and wish to continue using it.
I'd wear a trueSpace t-shirt, but it probably wouldn't sell many copies of tS. |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 18, 2008, 1:18pm
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Every user has the product he deserves !:D
I dont want to convert anybody to any software any more
because some people just want to do want they want.
I can and I will give people a heads up on things I´ve started
to like but if people want to do else they should.....
Even if they waste time and run in loops ! or pay a mile !
just let them do it !
Some software just do things in a tenth of the time others do it .... i found that out over the years and its NOT the BIG ones !
Peter |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 18, 2008, 2:14pm
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nowherebrain
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Here here...case in point blender versus max etc.(trying not to use tS as an example) |
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